Apple Denies Rumors of Selling Off Pro Apps

[IJ Reilly]

I've always argued the same way, but think about the number for a second-- what I'm about to work through is nothing like rigorous, but mainly illustrating a concept:

Apple buys Adobe, and half of Adobe's customers leave immediately. Immediate write-off of something like $400m in operating income.

Apple's operating income is about $4.4b, about half of which is from Macs. If killing the Windows versions sell 20% more Macs, Apple would have broken even.

I'm too lazy to find all the exact numbers, but this isn't too fantastical to imagine...

No, I meant soar. Lets say Apple buys Adobe and (and being the key word) cuts support of all those creative apps for Windows. It will force millions of graphic designers and web developers to buy Macs. Not to mention all those multi-media agencies that fully run Windows (not all creative shops use Macs). That will bring in billions of dollars in sales instantly. Companies will be forced to follow the software that so many of their professionals are trained in. There is no equivalent creative suite in the industry. Despite what people may say about Adobe apps, they are the standard for creative professional. So now think about it. Not only will companies buy Macs, they will also move to OSX server. It is no secret that Apple uses software to drive their hardware sales. And that is exactly what this would do. This would create a serious blow to Windows market-share. And that is how my AAPL will go through the roof.

Since these are essentially the same arguments, I'd respond to both that this outcome is wishful thinking, and represents a huge risk to Apple. Maybe it does work out in the end as has been suggested, but even if it does, this could easily take years to occur, and in the meantime Apple is lumbered with merger woes, which will be a drag on the company and the stock. Just look at the Oracle takeover of PeopleSoft as an example.

A rosy takeover scenario also assumes that Apple and Adobe are actually good merger candidates in the first place, and discounts the issues which always crop up when two large companies merge their operations. Products, fiances, management, culture -- all the impediments I mentioned before, and then some. To me, it would smack of the desperation that accompanied Microsoft's efforts to take over Yahoo. And since Apple is in no way desperate, I don't see the potential advantages outweighing the inherent risks.

 

[IJ Reilly]

There are quite a few optimistic assumptions in that post. Let us say that Apple does buy Adobe and does immediately kill support for Windows and does not offer any sort of discount/incentive to get Windows users to switch. Not only has Apple royally pissed off a ton of potential users, but they've also opened the door wide open for Windows based competition. EOLing the Windows version won't "bring in billions of dollars in sales instantly" cause the setups those companies already have invested heavily in still work. And companies will be very loathe to give Apple money when it was Apple that screwed them in the first place. Relatively few places run the latest and greatest for stability and monetary reasons. OS 9, Media Composer 11, and Shake are all examples of software that has been EOL'd for *years* yet are still common to see in use.

I agree entirely with this reasoning. The markets would have huge questions about any merger deal between Apple and Adobe, including these.

 

[milo]

The entire Emagic team (minus two guys) is still there. They still care. A lot of Logic whiners simply don't understand how difficult a program like Logic is to totally redo for OSX (Leopard in particular). With a program as deep as Logic, a lot of problems many users experience are, simply put, right in front of their monitors.

There are quite a few Logic discussion boards on the Net, and they are not all representative of what is really going on in the Logic community. People who don't have problems usually don't complain on the Net.

The complaints about logic aren't whining by any stretch of the imagination, quit being an apple/emagic sycophant. You sound like you either don't use the program, or barely scratch the surface of what it does. While enough of the app works that some people won't complain, that doesn't mean the app has tons of issues that are way overdue for fixing.

There are many many bugs in logic that have been there for years. And no, they are not user error, problems are 100% reproducible in many cases and have been widely confirmed. Apple simply either can't or isn't willing to go to the work required to fix all the bugs. The app has been mostly standing still for years (since apple bought it) - while 8 is a nice update, much of the improvement is cosmetic, there's very little improvement in stability (maybe even worse than 7), and CPU efficiency is worse (and leopard makes CPU use even worse again).

Sure, it's hard to write an app. And update it for OSX. And update it for intel. And update it for 64 bit (which rumors are saying isn't even planned for Logic, the devs haven't even started working on it).

Yet companies like Digidesign get their apps working in OSX with far fewer bugs. Why can't apple do it?

WHERE IS LOGIC 8.0.2? While it was still Emagic, the company was constantly updating and releasing bugfixes every couple of months. Now it's a paid upgrade with one, MAYBE two bugfix releases, then leave users stuck with a buggy version for a year or more.

I happily dumped digidesign a few years ago, but I'm growing increasingly impatient with Apple. I need an app suitable for professional use, and basic things simply not working right isn't going to keep pro users happy.

I think there's zero chance apple would sell these apps off, but based on the shoddy development we've seen for the last few years, I wouldn't mind seeing them get sold off to a company that cares about making the apps a priority.

And don't even get me started on Soundtrack Pro, that's so shameful it actually makes logic look reliable in comparison.

 

[needsomecoffee]

Live Picture and Painter = Photoshop Killer

Pretty simple re: Photoshop

Some company acquired the Live Picture code base -- I could track it down.

LP is ***still*** better than Photoshop for a lot of imaging work professionals need. LP was always mac only. Genius, pure genius was used when creating that app.

Painter is the best program to "go beyond" a pure photo in heavily creative ways.

Apple: Please buy both.

Also: Please be sure you are working with Intel or nVidia (or both) to develop an add-in card to deliver HPC capabilities for these applications.

I really don't think people today can get their minds around what could be done with gpu intensive activities being off-loaded to a High Performance Computing card.

It would be like the capabilities Live Picture delivered relative to Photoshop at its intro so many years ago.

Please Apple, Please. Think Different. This is a small investment that could lead to mind blowing Pro real-time creative imaging work.

 

[fluidedge]

what ever happened to the good old ".1" update? Apple seems to have got a bit lazy and instead of releasing feature filled dot updates now just release a "major" update every couple of years, like final cut for example - where is Final Cut 4.x...

The most we ever seem to get is x.0.1 "security" updates

 

[LethalWolfe]

I know nothing of logic but Apple certainly seems to be neglecting Shake/Phenomenon. It all sounded good on paper 2 years ago, but then Ron Brinkmann (the core guy from nReal who moved over to apple when they bought shake around the time they bought out eMagic) left to work on Nuke, made the GUI more like Shake and it seems that a lot of companies are switching. If apple doesn't at least make a demo of phenomenon by the end of the year, they'll have lost a huge chunk of the post production market. That said, with more FCP integration, the final product is likely to be more geared towards prosumers/television (and probably won't run on linux, which all the big post production companies use it on).

Phenomenon has always been an unsubstantiated rumor and I think that since Shake technology has been worked into Motion and FCP that a full Shake replacement isn't going to happen. Which isn't that surprising considering how resource intensive a very niche product like Shake can be.

But selling off their pro apps seems plausible, if only for how increasingly neglected we've been lately. That would be really annoying tho, partly cos of the integration, but principally because if it wasn't for FCP, I might never have gotten into this Apple fandom in the first place.

Apple has gone "broad" w/it's Pro Apps but it's yet to drove it can go "deep" by providing a level of support and development that pro users need. If Apple has kinda topped out and doesn't want to spend the required resource to get their Pro Apps to the next level then I think people will start bailing and Apple's position in the industry will fall. When Apple included Color in FSC2 everyone was like, "Holy crap this is awesome" but nearly a year has gone by w/o a much needed update and now people are like, "Is Apple ever going to fix the massive ***** problems w/this app?" Another example is "round tripping" between the apps. The integration in Adobe's apps is sweet where as Apple's is more like, "Well, it kinda works... sorta."


Lethal

 

[surferfromuk]

Someone should tell ZDnet who have just posted a news article suggesting such a stupid idea.

Seems like Cringley got his spook-story into mainstream media after all!!


P.S - For the record Pro Apps have been instrumental in nearly $10 Billion dollars of Apple S/W and H/W sales in the last 8 years - on this count alone they are NEVER going to sell them off.

This is just more image-mauling...

 

[alw4416]

The complaints about logic aren't whining by any stretch of the imagination, quit being an apple/emagic sycophant. You sound like you either don't use the program, or barely scratch the surface of what it does. While enough of the app works that some people won't complain, that doesn't mean the app has tons of issues that are way overdue for fixing.

There are many many bugs in logic that have been there for years. And no, they are not user error, problems are 100% reproducible in many cases and have been widely confirmed. Apple simply either can't or isn't willing to go to the work required to fix all the bugs. The app has been mostly standing still for years (since apple bought it) - while 8 is a nice update, much of the improvement is cosmetic, there's very little improvement in stability (maybe even worse than 7), and CPU efficiency is worse (and leopard makes CPU use even worse again).

Sure, it's hard to write an app. And update it for OSX. And update it for intel. And update it for 64 bit (which rumors are saying isn't even planned for Logic, the devs haven't even started working on it).

Yet companies like Digidesign get their apps working in OSX with far fewer bugs. Why can't apple do it?

WHERE IS LOGIC 8.0.2? While it was still Emagic, the company was constantly updating and releasing bugfixes every couple of months. Now it's a paid upgrade with one, MAYBE two bugfix releases, then leave users stuck with a buggy version for a year or more.

I happily dumped digidesign a few years ago, but I'm growing increasingly impatient with Apple. I need an app suitable for professional use, and basic things simply not working right isn't going to keep pro users happy.

I think there's zero chance apple would sell these apps off, but based on the shoddy development we've seen for the last few years, I wouldn't mind seeing them get sold off to a company that cares about making the apps a priority.

And don't even get me started on Soundtrack Pro, that's so shameful it actually makes logic look reliable in comparison.

200% agree with everything you said! I am sick of the Apple blind supporters. There seem to be so many of them on Apple's discussion boards. Every time someone discovers a new reproducible bug that is totally legit, they are not far behind to try and dismiss it and sweep it under the rug. Reminds me of government coverup garbage. I have been a Logic user since it's inception. Yes there were bugs but Emagic CARED very very much and was like Digidesign in quickly releasing updates and bug fixes. To the user that posted that it's likely user error. Go bury your head in the sand. You are obviously not a professional audio producer and more than likely just another psycho Apple yuppie. Logic is full of bugs and a disaster in Leopard. Apple should be ashamed to even put their name on it and ought to do the noble thing, sell it off to a company that will actually pay attention to it and it's users. Logic could be awesome, right now it's like an old dying champion. Sell it to Digidesign, that would ROCK!!!

 

[surferfromuk]

The complaints about logic aren't whining by any stretch of the imagination, quit being an apple/emagic sycophant. You sound like you either don't use the program, or barely scratch the surface of what it does. While enough of the app works that some people won't complain, that doesn't mean the app has tons of issues that are way overdue for fixing.

There are many many bugs in logic that have been there for years. And no, they are not user error, problems are 100% reproducible in many cases and have been widely confirmed. Apple simply either can't or isn't willing to go to the work required to fix all the bugs. The app has been mostly standing still for years (since apple bought it) - while 8 is a nice update, much of the improvement is cosmetic, there's very little improvement in stability (maybe even worse than 7), and CPU efficiency is worse (and leopard makes CPU use even worse again).

Sure, it's hard to write an app. And update it for OSX. And update it for intel. And update it for 64 bit (which rumors are saying isn't even planned for Logic, the devs haven't even started working on it).

Yet companies like Digidesign get their apps working in OSX with far fewer bugs. Why can't apple do it?

WHERE IS LOGIC 8.0.2? While it was still Emagic, the company was constantly updating and releasing bugfixes every couple of months. Now it's a paid upgrade with one, MAYBE two bugfix releases, then leave users stuck with a buggy version for a year or more.

I happily dumped digidesign a few years ago, but I'm growing increasingly impatient with Apple. I need an app suitable for professional use, and basic things simply not working right isn't going to keep pro users happy.

I think there's zero chance apple would sell these apps off, but based on the shoddy development we've seen for the last few years, I wouldn't mind seeing them get sold off to a company that cares about making the apps a priority.

And don't even get me started on Soundtrack Pro, that's so shameful it actually makes logic look reliable in comparison.

FOUL!!! Logic 8 is a fantastic app - and a beautiful evolution of Logic 7.

I use Logic Pro 8 and I regularly max out both CPU cores on my 2.16Gh Intel Imac 2G ram 10.5.2 - I'm running an extraordinary amount of plugin's and VI's. Haven't had a single bug, crash or issue. I use it professionally as well so please no 'home tinkler' comments. So far, for me, LS8 been flawless.

However, I only run a handful of third-party VI's - my personal feeling is most people's reliability problems are down to installing too many crappy third-party plugs...not excusing that but in my experience they have been the only things to cause instability in Logic 7.

My copy of Pro Tools LE, however, has never been run on Leopard - Why? because Digidesign still haven't released the Leopard version yet!

Whilst I do like Pro Tools LE I have to say that CPU efficiency wise Logic kicks the crap out of it ( under Tiger).

 

[madrid1979]

RE: Apple's absence at NAB 2008

Just because Apple wasn't on the exhibits floor at NAB this year, doesn't mean they didn't have a presence.

Apple made a presentation regarding their new digital asset management system (DAMS), Final Cut Server (which from what I've seen, not a one of you here has even mentioned as a point of reinforcement that Apple wouldn't dream of selling off their pro apps) at the largely-attended Final Cut Pro Users Group Supermeet event (which was coincidentally, sponsored by JVC, Blackmagic Design and *ADOBE*)

Granted, presenting a FCPUG Supermeet event is like preaching to the choir, but who better to sell to than a massive contingent of product supporters.

In fact, Apple's strategy as of late has been to increase support to existing customers, particularly with FCS2 (Color & Shake), and Final Cut Server. By improving their relationship with current customers, they are in fact, creating more sales by proxy. The people who attended the FCPUG Supermeet are typically the people that drive the technology adoption in the small-business to enterprise-level market places. I've had direct experience doing both. I currently work for a 50+ employee company, and I've worked with a massive company (RAYTHEON MISSILE SYSTEMS) where the enterprise-level adoption of new technology in video/audio production was primarily pushed by the guys in the department in Tucson, AZ.

It makes more sense (to me, at least) that as a business strategy, it pays off in spades to make your current customer base as happy as possible because they ultimately decide whether or not they are going to continue to buy and support your product, while allowing those same customers to act as salespeople to new customers as a by-product of improved service.

First Post, btw.

 

[Analog Kid]

This whole thing does raise the question of what the hell apple are doing with so much cash in the bank - it can only be for an upcoming major acquisition?

What is Adobe worth? It must be more than $19bn?

Yahoo is worth about $45bn judging from Microsoft's attempt.

What companies that apple would be interested in are worth about $20bn?

Is there any benefit to buying comapines like SanDisk for their flash memory/solid state drives?

Or what about something like a record company to secure the whole back catalogue and all the profits from itunes. What about buying a movie studio?

Adobe's market cap is about $20b, but there'd certainly be a premium to be paid in buying them depending on how it's done. The purchase could be a combination of the $20b in the bank, with the rest paid in Apple stock.

Buying SanDisk would be a bad idea. You don't buy your component suppliers. They're good at making components, Apple is good at making systems. Mixing that up just leads to conflict of business models and an inability to "shop around". Besides, there's nothing glamorous about building Flash chips, and Apple likes glamour.

PA Semi wasn't a commodity supplier, they were a niche player with a key technology.

A record company might be a better fit, but that would totally invert the relationships in the music industry. It would be seen by the labels as an act of war. I fully expect Apple to get into the content game at some point, but not like this, and not now. If anything, this is why Apple wouldn't sell off Logic-- Logic is their gateway to content authoring. Someday, Logic will include a little button with a tooltip that reads "Mix down and upload to iTunes Music Store".

 

[Scottgfx]

Photoshop- ...PS is more if an image creation app now than photo editor. Of course I'd love to see Apple acquire Painter from Corel and center their image creation app around it.

I've been using Photoshop for 14 years. It's always been a design tool. That DNA goes back more than 20 years when it was a tool at ILM.

Illustratror- Acquire CorelDraw and fix it. CorelDraw was actually on the Mac for a couple of generations and was dropped at ver 11 I believe so some Mac code exists.

Egads! Have you ever tried to use CorelDraw? I bought it for about $70 when it was a blow-out item at one of the catalog retailers. It was worth it for the font library that came with it and not much else.

 

[milo]

FOUL!!! Logic 8 is a fantastic app - and a beautiful evolution of Logic 7.

I use Logic Pro 8 and I regularly max out both CPU cores on my 2.16Gh Intel Imac 2G ram 10.5.2 - I'm running an extraordinary amount of plugin's and VI's. Haven't had a single bug, crash or issue. I use it professionally as well so please no 'home tinkler' comments. So far, for me, LS8 been flawless.

What do you mean, "foul"?

Logic has bugs. Fact. And no, they are not 3rd party plugin issues, they are problems in the app itself. Are you calling me (and everyone else who has problems) a liar?

You haven't run into problems. That's great, you have been very lucky so far. But that doesn't mean the bugs aren't there, or that you won't run into them eventually.


Just in the last couple days I had a Logic session where audio was playing where there were no regions. A section of the timeline where there was nothing on any track, and logic was playing sound.

Crossfades don't work consistently, they often are in the wrong place or don't actually fade. Or overlapping two regions makes fades appear or disappear on other regions before and after them.

Midi playback can be inconsistent, with notes playing way out of time. This happens even in sessions where not much is going on and the computer is barely taxed.

Undo is extremely inconsistent and doesn't work on many actions - what kind of app won't let you undo something like a tempo change?

Automation doesn't always play back properly - if you have a volume change at the start of a bar and start playing back at that point, it often doesn't play at the proper volume, you have back up the playhead to an earlier point for it to work right.

Changing automation on one parameter of a plugin sometimes changes other unrelated parameter (on logic's included plugins).

And don't get me started on features with poor implementations - when you select a surround bounce with "interleaved" checked, why does it bounce as split mono files instead of actually creating an interleaved surround file (as pro tools does)? Implementation of multitimbral instruments is a mess, requiring a separate aux for each discrete instrument output instead of just having the output on each instrument track. Logic doesn't support the standard patch name documents built into OSX that Motu and Digi use, requiring the user to jump through hoops to get patch names for hardware midi instruments.

The list goes on. And on. And on.

Congrats on not running into any of these speedbumps. But please don't insult the rest of us by insisting that they don't exist.

 

[Analog Kid]

Since these are essentially the same arguments, I'd respond to both that this outcome is wishful thinking, and represents a huge risk to Apple. Maybe it does work out in the end as has been suggested, but even if it does, this could easily take years to occur, and in the meantime Apple is lumbered with merger woes, which will be a drag on the company and the stock. Just look at the Oracle takeover of PeopleSoft as an example.

A rosy takeover scenario also assumes that Apple and Adobe are actually good merger candidates in the first place, and discounts the issues which always crop up when two large companies merge their operations. Products, fiances, management, culture -- all the impediments I mentioned before, and then some. To me, it would smack of the desperation that accompanied Microsoft's efforts to take over Yahoo. And since Apple is in no way desperate, I don't see the potential advantages outweighing the inherent risks.

Oh, I agree with all this. My point was simply that the numbers actually weren't as far out of bounds as I'd expected.

Culture has always played a big role in Apple's hiring practices and I'd expect it to play a big role in its acquisitions as well. The complete mess that Adobe calls a UI could also be enough reason for Apple to pan Adobe as an acquisition target. Apple couldn't stand to ship it as it is, and changing it is likely to lose more customers than dropping the Windows build would.

I also think there would be consequences to buying what is probably their largest third party developer (with the possible exception of Microsoft). Apple already has a dodgy relationship with devs and swallowing the biggest fish out there wouldn't bode well.

In the end though, Apple still does its business planning more based on long term vision than raw numbers. While the new Apple is certainly more fiscally responsible than the original, if they've decided that Apple will be the name in creative software then they'll burn money on it in the short term to achieve that goal. By the same token, if they've decided that Apple is to become a consumer electronics company, they'll jettison the well respected pro apps without a second thought.

This was an uncharacteristically strong denial out of Apple, and I was glad to hear it.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Oh, I agree with all this. My point was simply that the numbers actually weren't as far out of bounds as I'd expected.

Culture has always played a big role in Apple's hiring practices and I'd expect it to play a big role in its acquisitions as well. The complete mess that Adobe calls a UI could also be enough reason for Apple to pan Adobe as an acquisition target. Apple couldn't stand to ship it as it is, and changing it is likely to lose more customers than dropping the Windows build would.

I also think there would be consequences to buying what is probably their largest third party developer (with the possible exception of Microsoft). Apple already has a dodgy relationship with devs and swallowing the biggest fish out there wouldn't bode well.

In the end though, Apple still does its business planning more based on long term vision than raw numbers. While the new Apple is certainly more fiscally responsible than the original, if they've decided that Apple will be the name in creative software then they'll burn money on it in the short term to achieve that goal. By the same token, if they've decided that Apple is to become a consumer electronics company, they'll jettison the well respected pro apps without a second thought.

This was an uncharacteristically strong denial out of Apple, and I was glad to hear it.

Good points.

To beat an analogy to death, Apple has never shown an appetite for big fish, so this to my thinking makes an Adobe takeover even more of a long-shot.

But that uncharacteristically strong denial -- doesn't that make it more likely to be true?

 

[LethalWolfe]

In fact, Apple's strategy as of late has been to increase support to existing customers, particularly with FCS2 (Color & Shake), and Final Cut Server. By improving their relationship with current customers, they are in fact, creating more sales by proxy.

Shake is dead and Color has a lot of big workflow issues that haven't been addressed in nearly a year. I'm hoping for a big point update this summer but we'll see. DVD SP hasn't had a meaningful update in a l-o-n-g time and the launch of FC Server has been lacking, IMO. Like I said in a previous post, Apple can go broad, but can they go deep? Can they deliver the level of service and support that the customer base they are gunning for expect?

It makes more sense (to me, at least) that as a business strategy, it pays off in spades to make your current customer base as happy as possible because they ultimately decide whether or not they are going to continue to buy and support your product, while allowing those same customers to act as salespeople to new customers as a by-product of improved service.

I don't think anyone would argue w/this philosophy, but many would disagree that this is what Apple is currently doing. Many working pros are irritated by what they see as a continued lack of attention being given the Pro Apps by Apple. For example, a QT update that added TV features a couple months ago broke functionality in FC and third party apps like After Effects and really hit a raw nerve in the community. It's like, we know iPhones and iPods bring in $$$ but for f**ks sake Apple before you release a 100% consumer oriented QT update can you at least run it buy the Pro Apps guys for testing?

For the record, I don't think Apple is shopping around the Pro Apps, but if the level of service and support doesn't pick back up I'm going to start wishing that they would. Since the launch of the iPhone and Leopard is now behind us I'm hoping Apple will divert some more resources back to the Pro Apps where it's sorely needed.


Lethal

 

[surferfromuk]

What do you mean, "foul"?

Logic has bugs. Fact. And no, they are not 3rd party plugin issues, they are problems in the app itself. Are you calling me (and everyone else who has problems) a liar?

I've used Logic since Version 5 and I just think Logic 8 is the best it's ever been - it would have been nice for you to acknowledge that Logic 8 is a great product rather than suggest that the entire Emagic team have turned into a bunch of apathetic hackers since Apple took over and that Digidesign are the greatest company ever.

There are so many improvements but you seem to only be stuck on a few glitchy things. Now I accept that the things you outline may be annoying but they seem more like frustrations than show-stoppers.

Just out of curiosity what are you running it on ? Stock Apple hardware ( core audio) or an external sound device?

I must confess I no longer use external midi instruments - the last of those went about 4 years ago...

Foul because I would like to have seen you say something nice and positive about Logic 8 - for example : When eMagic owned them Logic + all the synths ( Es2 package, space designer, Vintage etc) cost you about £3000!! Ask me how I know!! How about Apple binning the annoying crappy little USB dongle...How about fixing the nightmare that was the environment...

I never suggested you were a liar but certainly it would be nice for you to see what 'good' aspects there are...I'd be interested to hear your take on what's good in LS8

So it's really not 'all bad'...

 

[milo]

I've used Logic since Version 5 and I just think Logic 8 is the best it's ever been - it would have been nice for you to acknowledge that Logic 8 is a great product rather than suggest that the entire Emagic team have turned into a bunch of apathetic hackers since Apple took over and that Digidesign are the greatest company ever.

In fact, I haven't suggested that at all. I'll agree that Logic is generally a great app. It just has quite a few bugs that have existed for a glaringly long time.

There are so many improvements but you seem to only be stuck on a few glitchy things. Now I accept that the things you outline may be annoying but they seem more like frustrations than show-stoppers.

I never said they are show stoppers. But to have even "frustrations" in an app that purports to be "pro" and intends to compete with apps like Pro Tools is a drag. Logic is certainly usable, but I'd never want to have to use it in a gig supervised by clients (as I have done with PT many times).

I'm merely saying that there are problems, and Apple has failed to fix them, in some cases for years. Improvements are great and I'm glad to see them, but they are not a substitute for the basics not working right.

Do you honestly think something like crossfades not working or audio playing where there is no waveform is something negligible that only someone nitpicky would complain about?

Just out of curiosity what are you running it on ? Stock Apple hardware ( core audio) or an external sound device?

G5 with motu firewire audio interfaces (which generally tend to be extremely reliable). I suspect if I unplug that and switch to nothing but apple hardware, the problems will still be present - how exactly would an external hardware box cause the app to behave erratically?

Foul because I would like to have seen you say something nice and positive about Logic 8 - for example

Then you don't really get what "foul" means. Complaining about something that is broken is completely legit - the notion that one must say something nice before pointing out a problem is ridiculous. Again, improvements are nice but it's hard to be glad about them when the basics are still broken.

Personally, having the app work reliably is the highest priority, I'd much rather see them take the time to fix the long standing bugs than add new bells and whistles. Over the years I have read many many MANY responses from users saying exactly that. And I'd rather see a reliable app than a price drop on the buggy version. The improvements in L8 that happened while leaving glaring problems elsewhere definitely look like misplaced priorities. But I guess "Now less buggy!" doesn't look as good on a flier.

So it's really not 'all bad'...

Of course not, I never said it was.

 

[nickane]

We'll see. I tend to agree with you ..Apple certainly isn't moving forward as aggresively as they should. Here's Brinkmann's comment about the possibility of Phenomenon coming.

He doesn't not appear to be happy at all with Apple right now. Can't say I blame him. If i'm a world class developer I'm going to feel tied down unless I can push the envelope.

Cheers, hadn't heard that, that's very interesting. Like I said, if it ever materialises it's more likely to be a new program in the suite aimed at FC studio/server customers.

 

[surferfromuk]

In fact, I haven't suggested that at all. I'll agree that Logic is generally a great app. It just has quite a few bugs that have existed for a glaringly long time.



I never said they are show stoppers. But to have even "frustrations" in an app that purports to be "pro" and intends to compete with apps like Pro Tools is a drag. Logic is certainly usable, but I'd never want to have to use it in a gig supervised by clients (as I have done with PT many times).

I'm merely saying that there are problems, and Apple has failed to fix them, in some cases for years. Improvements are great and I'm glad to see them, but they are not a substitute for the basics not working right.

Do you honestly think something like crossfades not working or audio playing where there is no waveform is something negligible that only someone nitpicky would complain about?



G5 with motu firewire audio interfaces (which generally tend to be extremely reliable). I suspect if I unplug that and switch to nothing but apple hardware, the problems will still be present - how exactly would an external hardware box cause the app to behave erratically?



Then you don't really get what "foul" means. Complaining about something that is broken is completely legit - the notion that one must say something nice before pointing out a problem is ridiculous. Again, improvements are nice but it's hard to be glad about them when the basics are still broken.

Personally, having the app work reliably is the highest priority, I'd much rather see them take the time to fix the long standing bugs than add new bells and whistles. Over the years I have read many many MANY responses from users saying exactly that. And I'd rather see a reliable app than a price drop on the buggy version. The improvements in L8 that happened while leaving glaring problems elsewhere definitely look like misplaced priorities. But I guess "Now less buggy!" doesn't look as good on a flier.



Of course not, I never said it was.

Hey I do know what you mean and I do sympathise even if it seemed like I don't - FCS2 Color, for example, crashes on me all the time and it winds me up no end ( resulting in the serious over use of the phrase 'For F***s Sake') but when it works it does great stuff. I wouldn't slate all of FCS 2 because of it and start suggesting that Avid believed in their customers more because Color was letting me down - that would be foul play.

Mmmh - Maybe it's just more reliable on intel? - I don't even have a reliability issue with my Mbox either. I certainly know I had more problems with Logic 7 on a G4 than I've ever had with LS8 on Intel.

Shame to hear your having such grief...my crossfades work very nicely and I've never had an empty regions playing stuff - THOUGH I will say I have had exactly those kind of stupid problems you describe on my G4 pre LS8.

 

[milo]

Mmmh - Maybe it's just more reliable on intel? - I don't even have a reliability issue with my Mbox either. I certainly know I had more problems with Logic 7 on a G4 than I've ever had with LS8 on Intel.

I'm running Logic on both quad G5 and intel, problems on both.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Pretty simple re: Photoshop

Some company acquired the Live Picture code base -- I could track it down.

LP is ***still*** better than Photoshop for a lot of imaging work professionals need. LP was always mac only. Genius, pure genius was used when creating that app.

Painter is the best program to "go beyond" a pure photo in heavily creative ways.

Apple: Please buy both.

Also: Please be sure you are working with Intel or nVidia (or both) to develop an add-in card to deliver HPC capabilities for these applications.

I really don't think people today can get their minds around what could be done with gpu intensive activities being off-loaded to a High Performance Computing card.

It would be like the capabilities Live Picture delivered relative to Photoshop at its intro so many years ago.

Please Apple, Please. Think Different. This is a small investment that could lead to mind blowing Pro real-time creative imaging work.

Live Picture code is owned by Roxio who acquired it through their purchase of the Live Pictures parent company. Then I heard the code was used in http://www.iseemedia.com/ so who knows? LOL. I have Live Picture at home..it was nice in many ways but the interface was confusing.

Just because Apple wasn't on the exhibits floor at NAB this year, doesn't mean they didn't have a presence.

<snip>

First Post, btw.

Great first post! Keep it up!

Cheers, hadn't heard that, that's very interesting. Like I said, if it ever materialises it's more likely to be a new program in the suite aimed at FC studio/server customers.

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that Apple is simply overwhelmed right now and simply needs headcount and a re-org. The Pro Apps should be part of a seperate division and have accountable Apple employees. I imagine that the focus these apps need isn't there because there needs to be like a mini Steve Jobs visionary for creative computing. There needs to be a fire coming from Apple about their Pro Apps. They've marketed well on price and features but they need to keep the focus up if they wish to compete with companies like Eyeon and The Foundry. These guys live for this stuff.

 

[nuckinfutz]

I'm running Logic on both quad G5 and intel, problems on both.

I'm not a developer so take this with a grain of salt. I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think many of these issues that we're seeing with OS X and applications can be attributed to a couple of things.

1. Lack of resources. Apparently the OS X team is very tight knit and even "elite" within Apple. Over the last year they've had to tailor OS X for two new products (Apple TV and iPhone). You can't get blood from a turnip. This clearly caused a delay in Leopard shipping and likely affected the quality.

2. The Cocoa vs Carbon Civil War. Apple knifed Carbon-64 but when I think about the resources it takes to maintain two different API Frameworks I think about the wasted man hours that could be focused on making Cocoa stable and full featured.

My hope is that now Cocoa has finally been blessed and can ascend to the throne Apple throws its might behind it and over the next two OS revisions we see a unified focus towards Cocoa extensibility and performance. The apps and OS clearly need this. There's been too much platform change (OS9 to OS X, PPC to Intel, Carbon to Cocoa) it's time to settle in.

 

[MikeTheC]

I strongly doubt Apple would do this, and that's simply based on a "what's in it for Apple" perspective.

Apple's already got a s**t-ton of cash in the bank. The few hundred million the sell-off of these apps would amount to simply wouldn't justify it.

Apple shares technology up and down the line between the pro and consumer apps, as well as various aspects of OS underpinnings-level componentry. All this would do is negatively impact that aspect of Apple's technology development process.

Also, these are fast becoming part of Apple's crown jewels. Getting rid of them would be strategically foolish. If Apple wants to remain a non-evil "big player" in the entertainment and advertising industries, getting rid of these apps is not the way to go about that.