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Just like Apple tries to screw every last penny out of their customers, it's horrible when the shoes on the other foot 🤣
Except in this case Apple would be saving their customers from paying those Qualcomm antenna royalties so your point is lost.
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Agreed. The old saying, never buy a first gen apple product!
Every Apple product is 1st gen. They always change the hardware and software even if it doesn’t look like anything has changed. Even their older discount phone re-releases are always 1st gen because they use different components in each new batch to save money.
 
Every Apple product is 1st gen. They always change the hardware and software even if it doesn’t look like anything has changed. Even their older discount phone re-releases are always 1st gen because they use different components in each new batch to save money.
Not true in the least. I’m sure there are occasional hardware revisions to fix unforeseen issues, but Apple doesn’t routinely redesign or switch components.

They might source certain parts from an alternate vendor—Apple often uses multiple vendors for any given part—but they’re qualified and meet the engineering specs.

What you say they do would be expensive to implement, and a nightmare for various reasons. Designs aren’t modified without good reason. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” can be an expensive lesson to learn if not heeded.
 
If you need or want macOS or iOS, you have no choice but to buy the hardware that Apple sells, since they have a monopoly on those operating systems.

Exactly, that’s why people here constantly complains about the price but end up buying Apple products anyway.
 
uhoh. its a bit late to start developing a 5g antenna, if the phone has to go into mass production in summer. hope it will not be another iphone 4 (even though i never experienced issues with my iphone 4).
 
uhoh. its a bit late to start developing a 5g antenna, if the phone has to go into mass production in summer.

iPhones have a ~3 year lead time for critical hardware components like the antenna. There is absolutely no way they've started developing an antenna today for production this year. Either they started long ago, or this isn't for this year's phones, or the rumor is completely wrong.
 
Which was true. It was basically a YouTube gimmick that if you cupped your iPhone (or any phone for that matter) in a certain way it would kill the reception.

Still the case with all phones on the market...

I hate to keep kicking this dead horse down the road:) but this was the take by many people at the time of this problem. This sentiment used to bother me to no end. At the time of the IPhone 4, I had owned every other IPhone. I experienced the antenna problem from day one with my phone. I would call someone, start talking and about 1 minute into the conversation, realized I was getting no response. The call was dropped. At the time Apple was thinking the problem was the screen not turning of when placed by your ear. If the screen didn't turn of, your ear would hit either the mute button or end call button. This actually was a problem, but not what was causing the main issue. Apple send out updates to try and fix the screen not turning of issue. You could put the phone up to your ear, look sideways at it and see the screen turn of and then back on. But, the real issue turned out to be the antenna problem.

The thing that was irritating about the above sentiment, is that most of us who had the IPhone 4 had owned all previous versions and NEVER had this problem before. If this new phone changed how we had to hold the phone, that's a bigger problem than any of us supposedly holding it incorrectly.

It was a problem for some, not a made up YouTube thing. Apple sent out free bumper cases which took care of the problem for most people.
 
Bending Phones followed by bending iPad Pros.

"Thinned out hinges " lead to problematical MBP implementations.

Apple takes 3 years to fix the keyboard issues.

Airpower ...

Customers aren't likely going to "get over it" if Apple doesn't learn something from it.

iPhone 4 antenna problem was solved in 4S, as well as Samsung Galaxy Note 7 batteries were solved in the next one, yet people already forgot about Samsung batteries exploding which is by far more dangerous and problematic, but people still meme about iPhone 4 holding it wrong. So it's not like they don't get over it because X company won't learn, rather than because they love mocking, memeing (and hating?) Apple.
Nothing constructive
 
McDonald’s has a “monopoly” on Big Macs, try getting one from Burger King
Well, it’s more analogous to if I want 100 Impossible burgers for a party. I can’t go to McDonald’s since they don’t sell it. I can’t go to smaller restaurants because they can’t make it quickly enough. The only realistic option is Burger King.
 
So that’s why Apple replaced the 15” MBP with the 16” MBP and increased the size of the SSD, while keeping the price at $2,399—after the resident Apple-hate crowd was sure it would be priced some where between $3,000-4,000 (or higher).

Or why they dropped the price from the XR’s $749 to $699 for the iPhone 11. Introduced a $329 iPad. Dropped HomePod to $299. Cut the Air from $1,199 to $1,099. Dropped the price of the higher capacity SSD configs 🙄
You say that like Apple execs drops prices out of the goodness of their hearts rather than because of the pressure to stay competitive in a free market.
 
iPhone 4 antenna problem was solved in 4S, as well as Samsung Galaxy Note 7 batteries were solved in the next one, yet people already forgot about Samsung batteries exploding which is by far more dangerous and problematic, but people still meme about iPhone 4 holding it wrong.

People *on tech forums* still meme about holding it wrong.

In the real world, however, no one is talking about the iPhone 4.

And yes... people have forgotten about the Note 7 debacle too.

But if you traveled via airports for a period of a few months around the time of the Note 7... you heard CONSTANT announcements about the exploding Note 7.

I heard it eight times in one day. They warned you multiple times in the airport. They warned you at the gate before boarding. And even the announcements on the plane mentioned the Note 7. It was a BIG deal at the time. A serious risk!

But no one cares about that today. It's history.

Samsung has sold a billion phones since the Note 7. It's time we all Let It Go... :p
 
You say that like Apple execs drops prices out of the goodness of their hearts rather than because of the pressure to stay competitive in a free market.
You mean the reason why every company drops prices?

Apples gross margin has been remarkably flat for years. When costs drop, Apple can drop prices without compromising their margin. It’s pretty simple.
 
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Perhaps you need to stop arguing and look at what you said in earlier posts. The article said that Apple designed an antenna with half the antenna efficiency as somebody else's. This is perfectly logical to an antenna designer, somebody managed to make an antenna 3 dB better.

It also proves that it's difficult to design antennas, unlike what you claim. RFICs are straightforward in comparison to very free-form design of antennas. Further, any modern antenna design is heavily dependent on computational tools, it takes a lot of sim time to iterate a design, so you have to have a good intuitive feel of the system.
The article said an Apple antenna took twice as much electrical power to create the same radio power. Antenna efficiency is not mentioned anywhere. As I keep repeating, something like a bad match would indicate technical incompetence but inefficiency in itself is not an indication of a bad design. If I may quote an authoritative source:
Small antennas are bad at efficiency, by the laws of physics.

Fast Company didn’t give any detail to support their claim, other than the word of “one source”. I suppose you could be that source, or you could be assuming they botched the design, but I’m assuming they were working within different design constraints. No way to know really, unless you know of any public test data showing the performance difference.

We could endlessly argue the definition of “hard”, but I’d feel pretty confident betting that the recently acquired Intel modem team employs more people and is a greater capital expense than Apple’s antenna team. Not the only metric, for sure, but in general companies apply more resource and budget toward harder problems. Baseband design also requires a lot of sim time, if that's the metric you're using.

I didn't mean to offend by calling the modem "the hard part". None of this is meant to devalue the work of the antenna team-- a great modem will be degraded by a poor antenna and front end. My only point is that there's no reason to freak out that Apple is doing this themselves. It's not beyond their capabilities and some bad press about a 10 year old design and one person's vague comment aren't enough to convince me this is beyond their capabilities. My point was about risk.

Wrong. You are mistaken in calling d/lambda the "electrical length". It is not. That is the physical length of the antenna. Electrical length refers to the length of an antenna as it appears to a circuit at the feedpoint. This is affected by antenna loading, e.g. inductors, that shorten the physical length versus the electrical length.
Physical lengths have units convertible to meters. d/lambda does not, it is unitless. d is a physical length. lambda is a physical length. d/lambda is an electrical length. This is more obvious when represented as it is in the Chu limit, as k*a where k is the wavenumber, 2π/λ, and a is the physical length— the product giving the electrical length in radians.

Antenna loading changes the electrical length without changing the physical length. This allows you to change the physical length of the antenna and then load it to maintain a resonant electrical length as measured into the feed network. That may be what you meant, but since I'm confused about your definition of physical length at this point I'm not sure if you meant "versus" to mean "as opposed to" (incorrect) or to mean a ratio (essentially correct).

You're falling into a very common trap by people who don't design antennas and that is thinking S11/VSWR describes the performance of an antenna and that problems can be fixed by matching. That is completely wrong. If antenna feedpoint impedance is low, then radiation resistance must be low, and therefore antenna losses (ohmic) will be high, both in the antenna and matching network.

The reason why people fall into this trap is that antenna efficiency is very difficult to measure, unlike S11. You went to school and stuck a VNA and go S11. They could not afford a free-space scanning field measurement system, so you never learned efficiency measurements.
You're falling into a very common trap of meeting a stranger on the internet and thinking you know something about them. Antenna efficiency isn’t an esoteric concept…

Saying that saying “s11 describes antenna performance and can be fixed by matching” is completely wrong is completely wrong. Matching is a critical performance parameter for any power transfer system, and some problems can be fixed by better matching. That’s different than saying it’s the only parameter to optimize in a design or that all problems are fixed by matching and I don’t think anyone has made that claim. Exaggeration isn't an effective form of argument.

If antenna feed point impedance is low, then ohmic losses can’t be high. Feed point impedance is the sum of radiation resistance, Ohmic resistance and ground losses. Assuming the point you're choosing to measure into only looks into passive components, then all of the resistances are positive quantities. You can’t have a small sum and a large summand with all positive quantities. Again, maybe you're being loose with the language, but I think what you mean is that if the other losses remain constant and the radiation resistance falls then the ratio of radiation resistance to feed point resistance falls leading to lower efficiency and more losses to heat for the same radiated output.

The Chu limit is a nice piece of theory that matches the loss due to low radiation resistance versus tricks like matching and loading.
The Chu limit is a nice piece of theory that sets an upper bound on bandwidth for an antenna of a given electrical dimension. As I said, loss (beyond radiation loss) doesn’t enter into the Chu limit at all— he assumes idealized, lossless elements. I’d link a source to support that, but you already did. The Wikipedia article you linked states "Chu established the limit on Q for a lossless antenna...".
 
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Well, it’s more analogous to if I want 100 Impossible burgers for a party. I can’t go to McDonald’s since they don’t sell it. I can’t go to smaller restaurants because they can’t make it quickly enough. The only realistic option is Burger King.
Doesn’t make sense to me, maybe I’m just dense. If Apple is Burger King, what do the smaller restaurants represent?

Sure Apple makes iOS and MacOS for their exclusive use, and the price is bundled into the hardware purchase. I fail to see the monopoly aspect.
 
The article said an Apple antenna took twice as much electrical power to create the same radio power. Antenna efficiency is not mentioned anywhere. As I keep repeating, something like a bad match would indicate technical incompetence but inefficiency in itself is not an indication of a bad design. If I may quote an authoritative source:


Fast Company didn’t give any detail to support their claim, other than the word of “one source”. I suppose you could be that source, or you could be assuming they botched the design, but I’m assuming they were working within different design constraints. No way to know really, unless you know of any public test data showing the performance difference.

We could endlessly argue the definition of “hard”, but I’d feel pretty confident betting that the recently acquired Intel modem team employs more people and is a greater capital expense than Apple’s antenna team. Not the only metric, for sure, but in general companies apply more resource and budget toward harder problems. Baseband design also requires a lot of sim time, if that's the metric you're using.

I didn't mean to offend by calling the modem "the hard part". None of this is meant to devalue the work of the antenna team-- a great modem will be degraded by a poor antenna and front end. My only point is that there's no reason to freak out that Apple is doing this themselves. It's not beyond their capabilities and some bad press about a 10 year old design and one person's vague comment aren't enough to convince me this is beyond their capabilities. My point was about risk.


Physical lengths have units convertible to meters. d/lambda does not, it is unitless. d is a physical length. lambda is a physical length. d/lambda is an electrical length. This is more obvious when represented as it is in the Chu limit, as k*a where k is the wavenumber, 2π/λ, and a is the physical length— the product giving the electrical length in radians.

Antenna loading changes the electrical length without changing the physical length. This allows you to change the physical length of the antenna and then load it to maintain a resonant electrical length as measured into the feed network. That may be what you meant, but since I'm confused about your definition of physical length at this point I'm not sure if you meant "versus" to mean "as opposed to" (incorrect) or to mean a ratio (essentially correct).


You're falling into a very common trap of meeting a stranger on the internet and thinking you know something about them. Antenna efficiency isn’t an esoteric concept…

Saying that saying “s11 describes antenna performance and can be fixed by matching” is completely wrong is completely wrong. Matching is a critical performance parameter for any power transfer system, and some problems can be fixed by better matching. That’s different than saying it’s the only parameter to optimize in a design or that all problems are fixed by matching and I don’t think anyone has made that claim. Exaggeration isn't an effective form of argument.

If antenna feed point impedance is low, then ohmic losses can’t be high. Feed point impedance is the sum of radiation resistance, Ohmic resistance and ground losses. Assuming the point you're choosing to measure into only looks into passive components, then all of the resistances are positive quantities. You can’t have a small sum and a large summand with all positive quantities. Again, maybe you're being loose with the language, but I think what you mean is that if the other losses remain constant and the radiation resistance falls then the ratio of radiation resistance to feed point resistance falls leading to lower efficiency and more losses to heat for the same radiated output.


The Chu limit is a nice piece of theory that sets an upper bound on bandwidth for an antenna of a given electrical dimension. As I said, loss (beyond radiation loss) doesn’t enter into the Chu limit at all— he assumes idealized, lossless elements. I’d link a source to support that, but you already did. The Wikipedia article you linked states "Chu established the limit on Q for a lossless antenna...".
One of the smartest engineers I ever met was the “antenna guy” at a startup I was at in 1999 that did cellular modems in a PCMCIA form factor (and later in the Treo 300). I basically lost my job as dir. of IT approving (and putting on my corporate Amex card... whoops lol) a rather expensive upgrade to his simulation hardware. The software was also very expensive. Good times.
 
That’s what I mean - it’s a strategic decision, not a charitable one.
Well Apple is far from a charity, so yeah it’s a business decision 🙂

But remember, my reply was in response to OP’s over the top post:

“Just like Apple tries to screw every last penny out of their customers, it's horrible when the shoes on the other foot 🤣”

You don’t sell $91 billion of product in a quarter if your customers feel screwed out of every last penny. On the contrary, customers must feel they are getting their money’s worth.
 
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You're falling into a very common trap of meeting a stranger on the internet and thinking you know something about them. Antenna efficiency isn’t an esoteric concept…

I can tell you don't know much about antennas because your terminology and assertions are simply wrong. For example, you keep saying "ohmic lossess" which is imprecise. We just call it losses, because there's a wide variety of dispersive loss models that do not utilize Ohm's law.

Again, going back to the original post, the article said the antenna was inefficient and you claimed the author didn't know what they were talking about because it was all about matching. I can tell you're a circuit person because you fall into the same trap that you can fix anything by matching, which is wrong.

Saying that saying “s11 describes antenna performance and can be fixed by matching” is completely wrong is completely wrong. Matching is a critical performance parameter for any power transfer system, and some problems can be fixed by better matching.

Transmitter people think its important. It isn't in the scheme of things, especially since your feed is so short on a cell phone. And you detune everything when somebody touches or sticks their head by the antenna. Matching is relatively easy compared to efficiency.

The Chu limit is a nice piece of theory that sets an upper bound on bandwidth for an antenna of a given electrical dimension. As I said, loss (beyond radiation loss) doesn’t enter into the Chu limit at all— he assumes idealized, lossless elements. I’d link a source to support that, but you already did. The Wikipedia article you linked states "Chu established the limit on Q for a lossless antenna...".

Wrong. Simple circuit theory. If you take a second to think about it, then you can easily see that in a lossless antenna, any power must be either returned to the source (stored in the matching network), or radiated. Thus, an antenna with a low Q must have higher losses, and therefore lower efficiency, because more energy is being returned.

This is the exact same concept as power factor in a power network, which is something they teach undergraduates...
 
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