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BarryBrown said:
I wish they would ressurect Lotus Improv. It was a spreadsheet/database application that shipped with the NeXT. It was, in my opinion, ahead of its time because everyone wanted a spreadsheet that looked like Excel. Perhaps now it's time to bring it back?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Improv

http://infocom.cqu.edu.au/Staff/Michael_O_malley/web/mooses_review_page_lotus_improv.html

I agree. It has a far superior paradigm to that of Excel, by allowing for proper separation and organisation of formulas and data. Excel was great for its time, but the fundamental design hasn't changed in ages and its about time we moved forward. I've lost count of the number of really badly designed spreadsheets I've seen.

Even if it's not that, Excel is way more than most home users need, and I would welcome an addition to iWork.

And Pages? I haven't used it yet but just remember it's at Version 1.
 
This will be good. Whilst Keynote is pretty good from what I hear, I haven't been hearing the same about Pages, which tries to be more like Publisher than Word (and honestly, don't most people want something more like Publisher than Word, but with some Word-like features). Sure, Pages will need to be version 2 or even 3 before it is actually reasonably good, but it is getting there.

It will be interesting to see how Numbers works out in the end. Considering how close in some ways a database is to a spreadsheet - they're both tabular data, they both include references to other tables/sheets, they have mathematical, date, etc functions and so on, I wonder if Numbers will eventually include database functionality. If so, I suppose Numbers is a rubbish name.

Lastly, does iWork use its own binary save-file format, or XML (e.g., the OpenOffice.org file format which is an open standard IIRC).

Edit: http://www.materialarts.com/FlexiSheet/index.html Open source under a BSD licence - maybe Apple are modifying this application and finishing it off?
 
If this Apple program can do decent graphs that DeltaGraph or MATLAB can do, then I'm all for it. Excel plots are most ugly and difficult to resize. That said, Excel is powerful though.
 
Really the thing that iLife is missing, and I can't believe no one has mentioned it yet, is a basic web page creation program. AppleWorks was a great program, but lacked the ability for students to creat simple webpages. I figured that for sure iLife would have it, but nope.

As an educator, and feel I speak for many, there is no good, simple program out there for k-12 kids to use. Frontpage is terrible, and DreamWeaver is too advanced.
 
edesignuk said:
That and the fact that Pages is **** 😱 🙄

Pages isn't bad.... but it NEEDS a font selection menu, not that awful "Show Fonts" thing. That is what really keeps me using AppleWorks 6.

The inclusion of Numbers and the adding of a font menu would make this a really great product.
 
Ahhh.

All this talk about taking on MS Office is giving me a headache! 😡

iWork, and this supposed Numbers app, is not a competitor to Office. These applications are being written only to provide more value to the Macintosh line. That is it. If you need more power than what iWork provides, save all your Pages files as .doc and purchase the only app worth not stealing from MS, Office.
 
Tis has probably been said in this thread, and I know it's been said before. People focus on what iWork isn't, not what it is. It's really a PageMaker replacement and a PowerPoint suppliment, not much else. It's not a powerful program(s) at all and it's just for simple little presentations and docs.

I wouldn't really consider it an office suite in the least.
 
I completely agree. Why Apple hasn't made something like this is beyond me. Something like a drag and drop RapidWeaver or some such. The HTML export in Pages is awful and unusable even for simple docs. A web creation program, even very simple, would fit in perfectly. Must just be a question of not wanting to step on Adobe/Macromedia's toes, a la' letting WebObjects crawl to a snail's pace for the past 5 years.

joemama said:
Really the thing that iLife is missing, and I can't believe no one has mentioned it yet, is a basic web page creation program. AppleWorks was a great program, but lacked the ability for students to creat simple webpages. I figured that for sure iLife would have it, but nope.

As an educator, and feel I speak for many, there is no good, simple program out there for k-12 kids to use. Frontpage is terrible, and DreamWeaver is too advanced.
 
Office Killer? Could happen.

If Apple could make a program that opens and closes Word files *well* (i.e. 99-100% compatibility), alongside Keynote and an *adequate* spreadsheet app (not nearly as broad as Excel, but at least able to do standard Excel functions and open and save Excel spreadsheets, AND sell iWork for under $100, they would have a market.

I know many friends who don't care if they have Office or not, but need to open and save Word files; they would be willing to 'switch' word processing apps, but they would rather keep their 100% compatibility (i.e. no hassle on their part) and pay the $150 student/teacher fee for Office.

For those not in the educational market, Office costs a LOT, and any alternative for under $100 would be worth looking into!
 
Didn't Apple buy a company from canada who specialise in producing importers, such as for Office.

Numbers seems a bit of a strange name. Going with the kynote or pages name, you'd expect something like ledger, sheets or even cells. A spread sheet app is certainly needed though, and basing it on improv would seem a good idea with it having big links to OpenStep and Steve Jobs. I rarely use spreetsheets however, prefering databases (i don't really have much use for charts). It would be nice to see a app that combines a spreadsheet with the power of a database, instead of a traditional excel type app.

Otherwise i'd like to see a database app for home use, with a few high quality Apple designed templates. For instance you could have things like recipe, cd, video collections, simple employee lists (for small businesses and for those that run clubs or the like). They could interact with existing apps such as iTunes for cataloguing your record collection, and address book for the person/employee list. It would probably be just a front end to SQLite and Core Data to make them easy to use and expose them for none developers. It could produce nice looking front-ends, like pages does for documents, or produce web page/db integration if you subscribe to .mac. I think it would be better basing it on Core Data over a diluted filemaker because the functionality is already in Tiger, which would make it lighter weight, and SQL is a common standard, which would make it easier to import/export data and use skills already picked up by users that use other databases (even Access uses SQL, if in a extended none standard way). I dunno what they would call it..tables or data maybe.

Other than that, iWork needs something like a drawing package to replace the likes of Appleworks. I'm not sure if a drawing/paint package should be in iWork or iLife, as it is kinda a cross over product, done for either fun or to add to your work such as to illustrate your presentations or reports. I guess adding it to iwork makes sense to attract more people to buy it. iPhoto can do photo editing, so i think it sohuld be more based on drawing than photo manipulation, so more an illustrator light than a photoshop light. Using W3C's SVG format would probably be best for this kind of application, giving the format a shot in the arm i the process (and also allowing the images to be added to the likes of Quicktime, flash and even browsers in the future -- i don't think gecko has support yet, but neither does webkit). Allowing animation in a easy to use basic manor would also be interesting (i think svg supports this?) It could possibly use Core Image, and also integrate with iwork apps, iPhoto and .mac. It would also have to be able to import and export illustrator files. It could possibly be called paint, draw, canvas (if using the pages naming scheme), painting/drawing (if using keynote naming) or strokes (using numbers naming)

The only other app i can think of would be a person finance app, but features for the home user could be added to a spreadsheet or database template.
 
This is good news. It's tough to justify calling iWork a "suite" when it is only two apps. Apple needs to expand the suite and make it more comprehensive - Numbers will help to achieve this.

They'll have to do a damn good job of it though - Excel is in my opinion the strongest app in Office, and it would take a lot for me to want to switch.

Guess we'll see what Numbers is all about in iWork '06. 😎
 
I got the iWork demo with my Tiger and was quite impressed with Keynote -- haven't had a chance to mess much with Pages yet, but from what I've done, I still like Word better.

However, Word (even under academic prices) is a LOT more expensive.
 
mkaake said:
what would be nice, now that I think about it, is if apple did to Numbers what they did with pages - not targetting excel, but rather targetting the home user, and setting up an easy to use system, with templates that do what the average home user might want from a spreadsheet. I'm comfy using spreadsheets all day long, but if you sit my wife in front of one, she's dumbfounded as to what to do... but if Apple did it up right... it could be a very usefull tool, even for peeps like my wife...

They can't do this.

I am all for more templates , but most people don't want something that is anything less than full powered.

It is why people buy Hummers to drive on paved roads.

If people would settle for what was functional, of for what they needed, they would buy copies of Apple Works which probably has all the features needed for 90% of users.

I work at a place that has copies of Office for almost everybody and only about 5% of the population knows you can put formulas into excel.

If they are going to make a spreadsheet program (and I hope they do) it must do everything excel does and then some even if most people don't use it.
 
BarryBrown said:
I wish they would ressurect Lotus Improv. It was a spreadsheet/database application that shipped with the NeXT. It was, in my opinion, ahead of its time because everyone wanted a spreadsheet that looked like Excel. Perhaps now it's time to bring it back?
I'm sure that IBM are champing at the bit looking for ways to help support Macintel!
 
iDraw? pfffft, pathetic. What we really need is MacPaint 3.0 🙂 Vector and pixel drawing (maybe a template popup akin to Keynote and Pages). MacPaint could also be where Clipart is stored. So people could have a "palette" of clipart that one could double click and edit - or not edit at all and copy into Pages or Keynote. That way Apple could encourage people to make their own clipart instead of being in a world where everything uses MS Clipart.

All Pages needs to be akin to Word is a "Report" or "Essay" template that set you up with double spacing, .5" margins, a title page, and editable headers and footers. A built-in Bibliography auto-fortmation would be ultra cool. Right now Pages is most a Publisher alternative except that it can't open Publisher files. Every graphic designer in the world would buy iWork if Pages could open Publisher files (well except the ones who would turn away clients who give them publisher files to work with).

A spreadsheet app should also be a database app. I don't see whynot. A database is a spreadsheet only with cross referencing data and a spreadsheet is a database only except spreadsheets can to graphs and charts.
 
7on said:
A spreadsheet app should also be a database app. I don't see whynot. A database is a spreadsheet only with cross referencing data and a spreadsheet is a database only except spreadsheets can to graphs and charts.


I am not sure which you don't understand.... spreadsheets or databases? or both.

If you don't see the major differences you are not utilizing the capabilities of one or both types of applications.
 
I've got Office, but I really liked AppleWorks (and preferred it in many cases for word processing) before it got so out of date (by not moving forward). I didn't buy iWork for exactly one reason: no spreadsheet. Bring on Numbers!
 
It would be helpful, and actually usable, if the Apple "Office Apps" worked together, i.e. Mail was integrated with iCal (crap, useless program), which talked to pages, Keynote. What's truly weird is that Mail talks better with iPhoto than it does with iCal.. That's stupid, no?

I know Apple's walking a fine line with not pissing off M$ too much, but these things just aren't incredibly helpful if you have to travel all over the computer and do things 2 and 3 times to get things to work together.

Just my 2cents
 
Doctor Q said:
I've got Office, but I really liked AppleWorks (and preferred it in many cases for word processing) before it got so out of date (by not moving forward). I didn't buy iWork for exactly one reason: no spreadsheet. Bring on Numbers!


What features are you looking for that are not Appleworks.

I don't think things become outdated because they don't move forward... I think they become outdated because you or your needs have moved forward.
 
Good to see that Apple is going to release a spreadsheet app. For people (like myself) who need to jump onto a word processing program and knock up a document in a few minutes, Pages is great. I don't use keynote but a Numbers would be great for doing my home finances.

I have found the Apple iWork apps to be very intuitive and easy to use. The features are not all there like office but look at the price. iWork is marketed at non-power users who just need to throw out a few documents sometimes.

I wonder if they will be making a draw app as well. It looks like they are gradually replacing AppleWorks one app at a time.

Ever since iWork was released I was able to delete Office and I only have 1 Microsoft app on my computers - Media player. How about you?

aussie_geek
 
ioinc said:
I am not sure which you don't understand.... spreadsheets or databases? or both.

If you don't see the major differences you are not utilizing the capabilities of one or both types of applications.

Explain it to me, because I think I pretty much nailed it square in the head.
 
Arrrggghhh!

geerlingguy said:
If Apple could make a program that opens and closes Word files *well* (i.e. 99-100% compatibility), alongside Keynote and an *adequate* spreadsheet app (not nearly as broad as Excel, but at least able to do standard Excel functions and open and save Excel spreadsheets, AND sell iWork for under $100, they would have a market.

I know many friends who don't care if they have Office or not, but need to open and save Word files; they would be willing to 'switch' word processing apps, but they would rather keep their 100% compatibility (i.e. no hassle on their part) and pay the $150 student/teacher fee for Office.

For those not in the educational market, Office costs a LOT, and any alternative for under $100 would be worth looking into!

I'm so tired of this "most people don't need X" and "I know lots of people who don't really need Y" reasoning. I know it is an Apple-fan reflex, but Apple does not want to kill MS Office, at least not now. Did you notice Microsoft's presence at the Intel annoucement? This is because Office is very important to Apple.

Apple would lose most corporate and academic customers that depend on cross-platform productivity software. No university would support Macs. Small businesses would flee, as well.

Listen carefully. This is a bad idea. Do you really want a platform that can't be used by professional writers, or within mixed platform corporate environments?

I'm not even sure why we would want this in principle. Who's to say that Apple would do a better job? Is it clear that iPhoto is a better app than MS Office 2004? The latter isn't Cocoa, but on the other hand, the average user (who you all seem to understand so deeply) couldn't care less.
 
Instead of developing a spreadsheet app, they could just rename the suite iNoWork or iNoUse. Save lots of time and money $.

Anyone see iGary? 😀 Has he impaled himself over the switch to Intel?
 
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