Excellent. Apple needs to protect the iPod from such groups who would like to tap into its success.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Disabling RealNetworks Harmony Technology
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I'm as big an Apple fan as anybody on this board, but how is this any different than TextEdit and Microsoft Word?
Let me use some comments made in this thread:
TextEdit allows Apple to 'ride' the success of Microsoft and their office suite. Microsoft makes no money from Apple doing this. Many Mac users do not purchase Word because TextEdit can handle the basic documents that they create and recieve. I need word compatibility to survive in my world and be successful, but I don't need Microsoft Word. So I've benefit from Microsoft's innovation and domination of the office market (I'm compatible with everyone), but Microsoft receives nothing.
Harmony does a similar thing. It gives people choice. Do you think Microsoft said "Here, this is how to read a Word File, I don't want to make money selling Microsoft Word" (if this is true I will eat my words)
I find a lot (not all) of flawed or un-backed-up arguments here that simply seem to be based on the fact it's Apple. These I do not agree with.
Let me use some comments made in this thread:
TextEdit allows Apple to 'ride' the success of Microsoft and their office suite. Microsoft makes no money from Apple doing this. Many Mac users do not purchase Word because TextEdit can handle the basic documents that they create and recieve. I need word compatibility to survive in my world and be successful, but I don't need Microsoft Word. So I've benefit from Microsoft's innovation and domination of the office market (I'm compatible with everyone), but Microsoft receives nothing.
Harmony does a similar thing. It gives people choice. Do you think Microsoft said "Here, this is how to read a Word File, I don't want to make money selling Microsoft Word" (if this is true I will eat my words)
I find a lot (not all) of flawed or un-backed-up arguments here that simply seem to be based on the fact it's Apple. These I do not agree with.
iGary said:
In the case of iPod Rip and similar programs: anyone with half a brain would just turn on the ability to show hidden files, and just browse the "iPod_Control>Music" directories on their iPod alphabetically to find what they need to rip off their iPod. It's a <i>bit</i> technical and not as GUIlicious a solution as the apps, but it definitely isn't rocket science.
Stella said:
Yes, that solution always work for the best option... or does it?
VHS vs Beta.
Microsoft vs Apple.
MP3 vs WMA vs OGG vs VQF vs AAC
Blue-ray DVD vs HD-DVD
etc...
The market forces always seems to choose what's "good enough" and not "what's best".
Anyway, I just can't wait to read the news... "Real networks is no more". I'd rather use Microsoft's Media Player 7 than use anything from Real... And I really HATE Media Player 7.
iTMS vs everyone else
Most of these posts are bashing REAL, but I would rather bash iTMS. Like I said earlier, by driving away competitions Apple is driving away innovation. As the market leader, they have no real incentive to improve the store. Every now and then they come out with a dumb little gizmo like allowances, but there's no real innovation. I have switched to eMusic.com, and I can get the music I want for a quarter of the price with no DRM, and although the selection is much smaller it fits my taste well. As for iTMS, I can see having the more popular artists go for $.99, but for indie artists, why not let them set their own DRM standards and price? The whole point of being indie is to have complete control over the music, but when the price is a set constant it hurts both sides. Apple's prices are still too high, too constant, and the selection is still too small. If REAL wants to also set it's prices lower or have a larger selection of music, it will force Apple to make a move in that direction also, and as an industry leader that will innovate the whole market. This just goes back to my point that competition improves the market, even if it does complicate things for Apple. If Apple is confident that it's product is better, then is shouldn't have any worries at all with having REAl play on the iPod, but if they feal that REAL is a threat, maybe Apple should see that as a sign that things need to change.
Most of these posts are bashing REAL, but I would rather bash iTMS. Like I said earlier, by driving away competitions Apple is driving away innovation. As the market leader, they have no real incentive to improve the store. Every now and then they come out with a dumb little gizmo like allowances, but there's no real innovation. I have switched to eMusic.com, and I can get the music I want for a quarter of the price with no DRM, and although the selection is much smaller it fits my taste well. As for iTMS, I can see having the more popular artists go for $.99, but for indie artists, why not let them set their own DRM standards and price? The whole point of being indie is to have complete control over the music, but when the price is a set constant it hurts both sides. Apple's prices are still too high, too constant, and the selection is still too small. If REAL wants to also set it's prices lower or have a larger selection of music, it will force Apple to make a move in that direction also, and as an industry leader that will innovate the whole market. This just goes back to my point that competition improves the market, even if it does complicate things for Apple. If Apple is confident that it's product is better, then is shouldn't have any worries at all with having REAl play on the iPod, but if they feal that REAL is a threat, maybe Apple should see that as a sign that things need to change.
adamberti said:
The bottom line is that Apple is under no obligation to support third party hacks.
Your analogy is flawed in the fact that M$ could release word 2005 for windows tomorrow and through no fault of Apple's OR M$'s, text edit may not be able to read the updated format word files properly.
As a graphic designer I see this same file format war fought back and forth between Macromedia Freehand and Adobe Illustrator. With every release of Freehand, better Illustrator file support is added, each player is always about one program version behind the other.
The same goes for Apple vs Real. Apple never promised the iPod to work with competing music stores just as M$ never promised text edit support and just as Adobe never promised that it's Illustrator files would work in Freehand.
bullrat said:
Go read a bit about Real's "solution" to give you freedom and choice... Then come back. Real's solution is a crappy hack that completely destroys the iTunes + iPod package. It renders the iPod as useless as all the other MP3 players out there by removing iTunes (and hence iTMS) from the equation.
Apple are smart by not letting Real hack its way into the whole thing. And if you think Apple (and most of the people here) are close-minded, well, how do you explain the HP rebranding of iPods, or the indies on iTMS, or even the Motorola cellphone that'll be added into the whole thing?
Real has no excuse for such a behavior. But then again, what do you expect from a dying company that has a long history of writing crappy software that hijacks the computers they're installed onto?
bredlo said:
Well, that's a possibility, yes. But let me ask you: what kind of websites do you visit that still use Real's format? I'd say that 99% of the websites I visit either have Windows Media *or* Windows Media and Quicktime...
Real is just taking way too long to close shop, if you ask me.
joeboy_45101 said:
The exact same argument goes for Apple vs Real:
The iPod technology is Apple's, not Real's. If Apple wants to change the firmware, they shouldn't have to worry about upsetting Real's crap while they do it.
Yes, you're free to use Real's service with your iPod. But if you do, don't go complaining to Apple that you can't use iTunes, can't update your iPod firmware, etc.
Gear_media said:
I agree with you completely and your whole post.
I wont be calling Microsoft for support when I can't open a Word document in TextEdit, but I do admit that it is likely to happen with your average user and a mix of Harmony and the iPod.
It's the comments that Real is lucky that Apple isnt suing them that are getting to me...That Real is a blood sucking company leeching off of Apple, and so on. If Real wants to try and open up the market, go for it. If Apple updates software and Real loses compatibility, then fix it. I don't believe they've complained, they said they would continue to make it compatible.
Many posts are just attacking Real simply for the fact they're benefiting from Apple, or that they are a competitor. I don't agree with that.
benpatient said:
I'd rather read Apple fanboys cheer for good products than to read blinded Microsoft fanboys cheer up for shoddy business practices and crappy products.
Stop looking at *what's* happening, and start looking at *why* it's happening.
AidenShaw said:
So Apple is using M$ formula for market domination, why does this come as a surprise.
Sony does it with they Magic Stick in they digital products any company is allowed to make and define they own product the only reason is that licensing is key here and Apple does not feel REAL as being worthy and with good cause they are going to compete in the same online market that is like giving someone with a gun a bullet to point the gun at your and say sure pull the trigger now. Apple is fine where it is in this regard people can always buy CD's and rip them or buy online from another store and burn it you still have that option they never said buying mp3 tracks won't play on an iPod that do not have any protection on it. There are so many loop holes its is quite funny though I will leave the individual the figure it out on they own.
joeboy_45101 said:
Why would you even ask? Of course there is. Me, for example, and I've got a fully loaded 20GB iPod.
jxyama said:addendum: in 3 weeks of half priced promotion, real sold 3 million tracks. iTMS does that in less than two weeks, while charging 99 cents...
has there been any numbers of Real's sales after that 3million tracks?? because it's been really quiet.. I'm waiting for the day they announce they step out of the online music competition.
anyway, I don't really care if I can't use the real's service.. but I totally understand the opinion of those iPod owners who have bought music from Real (in case there is any).
ahamilt2 said:
Apple is innovating, they decided on an all-in-one music shopping/listening package. They developed it. They marketed it. They continue to improve it, and are now reaping some of the rewards. By the way, since eMusic is distributing mp3's, which cannot be drm'd, can't you play them on your iPod? The iPod/iTMS is not a closed system, its just not completely open.
As some people have already stated, the legal download market is in its infancy. By forcing Apple to open up its FairPlay system, you are actually taking away the incentive to innovate. Why would a company want to take the risk of spending the time and money to develop a new product/service, if the government is going to force them to give up their advantage when the market is still developing?
When it comes to the couple of posts regarding Apple as a monopoly, for Apple to be a monopoly, it needs to be shown that there is no alternative choice for consumers. I don't see how anyone can say there is a lack of choice. There are numerous other small mp3 players some with even more features. Those other players support the host of other legal download sites including Real's. Apple is not a monopoly.
ahamilt2 said:
These common complaints are more appropriately directed to the record labels.
ahamilt2 said:
Here is a counter point:
Competition does not always improve the market. In order for innovation to be encouraged, companies must feel that the investment of time and money is justified. By forcing companies to open up their developments to other companies or abandon business models before they have been able to reap the benefits of their hard work, will actually discourage innovation. Market commoditization would be the likely outcome, and innovation will slow to a crawl because any small innovation will be immediately copied by the competitors and any advantage neutralized.
For example, what innovations are occurring the VCR market? VCR's have a single standard format, what innovations have occurred in the last 10 years or even 15 years? The only things I can think of is that they got cheaper, all accessing of functions were moved to the remotes, and VCR makers realized that they need to couple with newer technologies, e.g. DVD's, to remain relevant. I would hardly consider those to be innovative.
The real incentive for Apple to continue to innovate when it comes to the iPod/iTMS package is that they risk becoming irrelevant as the market develops. My opinion is that no matter what Apple does, the probability of them remaining the dominant music store is less than 50%, which is just a reflection of the consumer electronics industry. So those of you who think Apple is making a mistake by keeping a somewhat closed system, will at some point probably be able to say "I told you so", even if the relevance of most of the arguments I've seen have been questionable at best.
crackpip
Yvan256 said:
Always? How do you explain the success of the iPod then? Does the market consider it just "good enough"?
adamberti said:
I suppose this is what Apple's kindest action toward Real, instead of getting them a lawsuit....of course, it would be sad if Real make Realplayer discontinues on Mac.
well. they are a competitor, but they still getting benefit fm Apple. or else what is the point to buy song from them.
Jovian9 said:
I just had a thought.. Real actually is good for one thing: South Park
Those SP episodes look pretty good with those 36mb rm files. I don't know if some other codec could do better though.. H.264?
The software is pretty damn crappy though.. even Real Player 10.
Just got in...
...I read the headline, read the thread .... MHO good news for everyone !!
Apple benefits, for obvious reasons, and the consumer benefits in an equally big way. In order to make a worthwhile impact in the market, Real are going to have to better the service that Apple currently provides. This previous attempt the ride the coat tails was narrow minded, knee-jerk short termism ... fools. With Apple shutting the door Real are going to have to innovate and sell the world something amazing and different ... and that can only be good news for the consumer.
At the moment the consumer will continue to ignore Real dismal efforts, and rightly so!
...I read the headline, read the thread .... MHO good news for everyone !!
Apple benefits, for obvious reasons, and the consumer benefits in an equally big way. In order to make a worthwhile impact in the market, Real are going to have to better the service that Apple currently provides. This previous attempt the ride the coat tails was narrow minded, knee-jerk short termism ... fools. With Apple shutting the door Real are going to have to innovate and sell the world something amazing and different ... and that can only be good news for the consumer.
At the moment the consumer will continue to ignore Real dismal efforts, and rightly so!
dejo said:
As has been said before, the digital music player is still in it's infancy. There was probably a time where there were more Betamax players than VHS. Sony made a few really big mistakes with Betamax but there is no force like JVC and VHS yet on the horizon for Apple. If anything, Apple is the late-comer that took the market away from the early players. I would like to think that Apple won them over with a better product. It's still early though. You won't be able to write this book for another 5 years or so.
ugh
<.02>
Real also offers higher bit rate AAC than apple. Aren't they 192 kb/s?
That is my biggest grief with the itunes store. They should provide CD quality if I am going to pay CD prices.
Competition is good. Apple is trying to monopolize a market, and the potential for failure is huge. The payoffs are huge, if successful. But the consequences to the consumer are dire. Just look at our friends at redmond.
As long as Apple controls the market, we won't see nice things like CD quality downloads or compatibility with WMA or Ogg Vorbis, which would also be nice.
Apple is the king of user interface, but they also rule the land of closed systems.
</.02>
<.02>
Real also offers higher bit rate AAC than apple. Aren't they 192 kb/s?
That is my biggest grief with the itunes store. They should provide CD quality if I am going to pay CD prices.
Competition is good. Apple is trying to monopolize a market, and the potential for failure is huge. The payoffs are huge, if successful. But the consequences to the consumer are dire. Just look at our friends at redmond.
As long as Apple controls the market, we won't see nice things like CD quality downloads or compatibility with WMA or Ogg Vorbis, which would also be nice.
Apple is the king of user interface, but they also rule the land of closed systems.
</.02>
