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Virtualized OS X Server May Be Their Goal

Wow, there is now no way to run OS X services in a data center anymore. And yes, my company does this a lot. I just wonder how Apple is going to run server OS X services for their own Data Center. If Apple would just license out Foundation and some of their other lower-level (i.e. non-UI) frameworks, dropping the Xserve would be a non-event.

You can run OS X Server just fine inside VMWare; it's the best way to do it these days, honestly. If you need all the redundancy/reliability/capacity of RAID+SAN+hot swappable bits, you can't beat a virtualized environment since you get the ability to migrate between datacenters seemlessly, as well as all the RAID+SAN+physical redundancy.

For those that swear you can't put OS X Server in a VM, Apple updated the licensing a few years back to explicitly allow it. If apple tweaks the license to remove the 'Apple Hardware' spot, problem solved in a few lines of legalese. Also, for those who think it's a kludge or hard, here's the guide, updated this year, including 10.5 compatibility, etc. Check out the *1* page instructions on page 29 (well, half on 29 and half on 30, but you get the point):

http://www.vmware.com/pdf/GuestOS_guide.pdf

I run datacenters (not closets; call it 250,000 square feet of actual populated raised floor space), and virtualized workload management is one of the best things we've seen in the last 15 years (Yes, I'm dating myself a bit by admitting I've run large datacenters for a decade and a half; sue me). I have seen power utilization climb astronomically after being fairly static for many years, and it's now leveling off again thanks to Intel/AMD deciding GHz aren't the only thing that matter, and that power is a design element to care about, along with the extra cores meaning virtualization is easy and effective.

The 'value' of OS X Server and all the associated bits that people absolutely love are similar to the value found in OS X. However, in the enterprise environment, people tend to already have 'enterprise level support' available, and Apple probably has decided that while they make their own hardware so their software 'should' *always* work the way they expect with the least possible permutations, letting people put OS X server inside the limited number of hypervisors out there accomplishes the same goal with even less effort/work/expense on their side, *and* removed the 'fear' by the Enterprise of exactly this type of event (Apple discontinuing a piece of *hardware*, or not refreshing it for a year and a half, and paying apremium because it's not a core competency for them). It lets an Enterprise put the software on a platform they already know and trust (Hypervisor of choice on hardware of choice). That's *removing* a barrier to acceptance, trust me.

For what it's worth, I'm a Unix geek, and a fairly 'old school' one, in that I used to deal with CP/M, VAX/VMS, OSF/AIX/HPUX/Solaris/Irix/BSDs 'back in the day', 'migrated' from Minix to Linux in 1991 and was one of the first RHCE's, had a NeXT on my living room end table, and I rejoiced the day it was obvious Mac was going Unix underneath. As a datacenter nerd, I don't have any bones to pick with Apple other than I always felt they were missing their opportunity to do well in the server market, in part *because* they were focusing on the Xserve at times (but just a little bit, and not enough to do much with it). I love the XServe for what it is, but it was never going to take over the world in it's current form. Oh, and full disclosure: I have an iPhone on my hip, an iPad sitting on my desk, I'm on a 15" MBP and my 27" iMac is my workstation at home. So, I'm not a Unix nerd who hates Apple gear and secretly wants them to fail.

Apple does their best value-add with the usability and experience sides of their gear and software. In the enterprise, they can easily continue to do well and expand on that without making the boxes that run it, as there is much less importance of physical control of the box for a server as there is for a 'revolutionary' device like an iPod, iPad, iPhone, Air, MBPro, etc. Servers are invisible, and the hardware is a means to an end. VMWare and other hypervisor platforms are just as good for Apple as 'real' hardware, and it's possible that this will actually let them focus on all of the 'value' part of a server (what the software *does*) and ignore what it's runnig on, which is a huge shift for them, but possibly an incredibly profitable one. I think this could be a great long-term plan on their part.
 
Apple just offers the hottest gear in consumer tech and drives innovation in the consumer sector. That's all. LOL

But you're right, MS should stick to what they do best. Windows on boxes in offices. And trying to shoehorn Windows into a tablet. And having their entire mobile strategy destroyed overnight and *then* coming back three years later with something that *might* have been impressive three years ago.

Microsoft succeeds because of licensing and upgrades.

Apple succeeds because they innovate. Whether it's something entirely new or an old idea finally executed properly.

My guess is you are less than 20 years old, as such you probably don't remember a device called the Sony Walkman. Said device was the iPod of its day and every pundit for miles around said that Sony would be the king of mobile music forever. Fast forward 25 years and Sony isn't even number 1 in their home market of Japan anymore. Consumers are a fickle bunch and have very few qualms with abandoning platforms as fast as they have adopted them. The iPhone is less than 5 years old, and the iPod sales are flatlining. Android is gaining steam. If anything Apple should be shoring up the base that really propelled them and stood behind them in tough times. Now Apple is turning its back on them for what? Some consumer devices that may be dead in a couple of years.

4 years is not a long time, even by todays standards. Just because Apple is on top now don't expect that to hold forever.
 
Well, you just stay in your little Apple world.... Microsoft will make a comeback in the consumer market... because they need to and have the resources to do so. Apple are putting too many eggs in one basket, while driving out existing customers.

not anymore

the risk was that apple could use the consumer market to go enterprise like MS did in the 1990's. but no more after today. with VMWare and MS Hyper-V no one in their right mind will even buy a mac mini server
 
Actually Apple had pretty good support contracts for their enterprise stuff and if you really didn't have the redundancy built in to the point where you needed 4 hour support you are doing it wrong.

While Apple's support wasn't the best I have ever experienced, it was a hell of a lot better than Dell's, ie some dude in India who refuses to deviate from his prepared script no matter how much you told him that the said script had no relevancy.

If the problem was pressing enough you could even get in contact with an Apple software engineer. Good luck getting that with Microsoft and/or Dell.

You are so wrong it's unreal. I work in enterprise IT and ALL of our systems have massive redundancy, yet we still get 4 hour support. If a system has a drive fail, it still runs, but I cannot wait days to replace that drive, what if the other drive fails?

FYI, Dell's enterprise tech support does not go to India, it goes to Texas. Don't confuse crappy consumer tech support with enterprise support.
 
LOL, cute picture, but I think you've got too much time on your hands to create this pic just for the thread topic. :p

Thanks, only took me a few minutes counting the time to scan it in. By the time it was done Lotus Notes finally loaded up... *shudder*. :eek: :p
 
You can run OS X Server just fine inside VMWare; it's the best way to do it these days, honestly. If you need all the redundancy/reliability/capacity of RAID+SAN+hot swappable bits, you can't beat a virtualized environment since you get the ability to migrate between datacenters seemlessly, as well as all the RAID+SAN+physical redundancy.

For those that swear you can't put OS X Server in a VM, Apple updated the licensing a few years back to explicitly allow it. If apple tweaks the license to remove the 'Apple Hardware' spot, problem solved in a few lines of legalese. Also, for those who think it's a kludge or hard, here's the guide, updated this year, including 10.5 compatibility, etc. Check out the *1* page instructions on page 29 (well, half on 29 and half on 30, but you get the point):

http://www.vmware.com/pdf/GuestOS_guide.pdf

I run datacenters (not closets; call it 250,000 square feet of actual populated raised floor space), and virtualized workload management is one of the best things we've seen in the last 15 years (Yes, I'm dating myself a bit by admitting I've run large datacenters for a decade and a half; sue me). I have seen power utilization climb astronomically after being fairly static for many years, and it's now leveling off again thanks to Intel/AMD deciding GHz aren't the only thing that matter, and that power is a design element to care about, along with the extra cores meaning virtualization is easy and effective.

The 'value' of OS X Server and all the associated bits that people absolutely love are similar to the value found in OS X. However, in the enterprise environment, people tend to already have 'enterprise level support' available, and Apple probably has decided that while they make their own hardware so their software 'should' *always* work the way they expect with the least possible permutations, letting people put OS X server inside the limited number of hypervisors out there accomplishes the same goal with even less effort/work/expense on their side, *and* removed the 'fear' by the Enterprise of exactly this type of event (Apple discontinuing a piece of *hardware*, or not refreshing it for a year and a half, and paying apremium because it's not a core competency for them). It lets an Enterprise put the software on a platform they already know and trust (Hypervisor of choice on hardware of choice). That's *removing* a barrier to acceptance, trust me.

For what it's worth, I'm a Unix geek, and a fairly 'old school' one, in that I used to deal with CP/M, VAX/VMS, OSF/AIX/HPUX/Solaris/Irix/BSDs 'back in the day', 'migrated' from Minix to Linux in 1991 and was one of the first RHCE's, had a NeXT on my living room end table, and I rejoiced the day it was obvious Mac was going Unix underneath. As a datacenter nerd, I don't have any bones to pick with Apple other than I always felt they were missing their opportunity to do well in the server market, in part *because* they were focusing on the Xserve at times (but just a little bit, and not enough to do much with it). I love the XServe for what it is, but it was never going to take over the world in it's current form. Oh, and full disclosure: I have an iPhone on my hip, an iPad sitting on my desk, I'm on a 15" MBP and my 27" iMac is my workstation at home. So, I'm not a Unix nerd who hates Apple gear and secretly wants them to fail.

Apple does their best value-add with the usability and experience sides of their gear and software. In the enterprise, they can easily continue to do well and expand on that without making the boxes that run it, as there is much less importance of physical control of the box for a server as there is for a 'revolutionary' device like an iPod, iPad, iPhone, Air, MBPro, etc. Servers are invisible, and the hardware is a means to an end. VMWare and other hypervisor platforms are just as good for Apple as 'real' hardware, and it's possible that this will actually let them focus on all of the 'value' part of a server (what the software *does*) and ignore what it's runnig on, which is a huge shift for them, but possibly an incredibly profitable one. I think this could be a great long-term plan on their part.

But you still need to run the VM on Apple branded hardware in order to not violate the EULA.

If Apple announced that they were partnering with Dell/HP/whoever and allowing users to run OS X Server on their servers I don't think you would see a lot of complaining(in fact you might see a massive amount of celebrating :p)

But the problem is that you can no longer get OS X Server in a 1U form factor. You also can now no longer swap out drives in your rack(you cannot open up a racked mac pro) etc.

If Apple wanted out of the server class hardware design business there are tons of companies they could have outsourced to. That would have made infinitely more sense both for Apple as a company AND for their users. Instead they just nix the product wholesale and leave a lot of people who put a lot of faith into Apple hanging. Not a good move Apple, not a good move at all. You have almost instantaneously turned a lot of good will towards your company into animosity.
 
Well, you just stay in your little Apple world.... Microsoft will make a comeback in the consumer market... because they need to.

No, they don't need to. That's the point. Microsoft will continue, by default, to reap the rewards of their licensing cash cow (for a little while longer, at least) and their enterprise cash cow (for many years to come.) MS has become a cash register that makes a gaming console.

Apple *needs* to innovate. The competition in the consumer sector is fierce, and consumers can be fickle. Have you seen what Apple's been doing since 2006? Product rollout every quarter. Something new every year. iPhones, iPads, etc. Apple's pace of product development has been blistering, to say the least. And guess what: the competition HAS NOT been coming from Microsoft in this area. It's from Google and others. When Apple has created a market in the past, the competition has not come from MS. MS doesn't even figure into the picture. Even in games, MS has virtually no mobile presence. And it's ALL about mobile now.
 
If you continue to make great leaps into blue air like this one day you will leap over a cliff. A manufacture dropping a product that doesn't sell does not imply they are moving to a totally closed system.

What transition? Do you have any idea at all about what you are talking about. The AIRs are compact laptops, and do not run iOS. I really don't think you have a grasp of what Back to the Mac was all about.

Dave

Now now, I think he's right actually. The App store announcements already got me wondering how long it would be before the Mac isn't a full computer so much as an "Appliance" onto which you installed programs from the App store. The cancellation of the server product isn't looking good.

I think the main downside of this is that for a company who aren't in the enterprise/datacentre business (and there are alot of them) there are only 2 server options... Linux and Windows. For an organisation without a full time support staff and linux techies... Windows is the easier option, and once you have active directory with all it's bells and whistles, those nice cheap Windows clients look much more appealing.

Apple provided a simple server offering, with an easy to use, standards compliant O/S. It was never going to be a big seller, but they do need it to prevent small businesses simply buying Windows as their only choice.

It would be nice if the plan was to do a deal to pre-install Mac OS X onto another companies servers, like HP or something, at least giving a server option. Alot of servers run EFI anyway... but I don't think this is the case.


This is something I think Apple just doesn't get. In the 90's... great computers, but there was this impression that there was no need to worry about office software, or games, or servers because, well, Apple's ran photoshop really well.

This industry is all about platforms, not individual products. They had good things to the Mac experience, and it had it's strengths, but they seemed ignorant to the fact that lack of focus in Entertainment and office software meant they lost sales in areas they weren't interested in... which increased overall microsoft dominance, weakening the Apple platform overall.


They seem to have gotten it recently. For every consumer product, there's a pro product to transition to. There's an iPod for almost everyone...

...I think they are in danger of losing it again though. They need proper computers for the geeks who push these products onto their relatives. They need servers to make small businesses consider that whole suite of Mac's they might buy. They need a cheaper Mac to get customers who could very well be lifelong Mac users if given the opportunity.

When the iMac appeared, it was $999. It was competetive to a point. The Mac still has a similar price point while regular PC hardware has gotten steadily cheaper. The Mac mini was their cheap option, but that's gotten steadily more expensive since it's release. It's not even like they can use "different hardware" as a reason now.

So, no cheap systems, no servers= fewer new consumers and fewer business buyers... these people aren't going to buy linux when there's no Mac for them, they'll buy windows. With Windows 7 showing a marked, if not massive improvement, I'd say for the first time since er...

Eventually, Apple is going to be the computer of choice for people who don't want a computer. By that I mean the old, the stupid, the non geeks. It'll be nicely designed, it'll just work and it'll be simple to use...... and I'm afraid it won't be for me.

No, they don't need to. That's the point. Microsoft will continue, by default, to reap the rewards of their licensing cash cow (for a little while longer, at least) and their enterprise cash cow (for many years to come.) MS has become a cash register that makes a gaming console.

Apple *needs* to innovate. The competition in the consumer sector is fierce, and consumers can be fickle. Have you seen what Apple's been doing since 2006? Product rollout every quarter. Something new every year. iPhones, iPads, etc. Apple's pace of product development has been blistering, to say the least. And guess what: the competition HAS NOT been coming from Microsoft in this area. It's from Google and others. When Apple has created a market in the past, the competition has not come from MS. MS doesn't even figure into the picture. Even in games, MS has virtually no mobile presence. And it's ALL about mobile now.

Totally agree. Apple are doing amazingly well in the Appliance and consumer device arena, and in this arena Android is possibly their biggest threat... I just hope in doing so they don't forget the traditional computer market which does certainly help to drive sales of everything else.... And the competition in this market still is Microsoft. Microsoft don't have a good showing in the consumer market right now too, but if windows continues to improve, and Apple continues it's current trend to lock down Mac OS X to merely an iphone with a keyboard.... then Microsoft astonishingly may provide the best compromise between ease of use and choice of software.
 
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I run OS X Server 10.5.8 on a Mac Pro. I am planning on replacing my existing server sometime in 2011. Any word if Apple is planning to have a version on Lion in server form?

If not, I guess I'll be "upgrading" to something else. Shame really, as a small business person, OS X Server has been relatively easy to Admin and maintain whilst allowing me to do other tasks.
 
Obligatory xMac long-shot comment post-xserve

The problem is pretty simple if you are going to sell a 1U server it needs either a low price or compelling performance. XServe had neither. The other problem is that being in the server business means having a line of suitable hardware. Again Apple has nothing but an overpriced 1U server.

What is really bothersome is that apparently Apple never tried to build business class hardware nor market such properly. At the very least they should have had one set up in every store.

I agree with those who are worried about what this means for the mac and OS X in general, as a serious platform. I think Apple is short-sighted in some areas and throttle their performance for ideology. (and I really like the quote above, and perhaps they were dogfooding the xserve in the data center and said, u-uh, not working, hehe, I'd love to know.)

(deep breath)

By not spreading engineering and design talent to another form factor like xserve, perhaps that attention could focus on a different product, one, with, I don't know, more of a broad market appeal?

Perhaps if mac pro can migrate (evolve) somewhat closer to the xserve, redundant power supply for example and attract some of the xserver purchasers.

If the mac pro moves even more pro/enterprise then, perhaps, the product gap between iMac and Mac Pro will be more obvious and an xMac could fill the void.

Search the forum for xMac discussions, I won't go over all that again here.
 
A missed opportunity

Okay, so Apple will never compete with the likes of IBM, HP, Dell, Redhat, SuSe or Microsoft (regardless of what you think of them) in the corporate space. But they do have industries where they have been traditionally very strong - graphics, media, tv, etc, etc

It's okay having good desktops and good applications for this market (FinalCut, Aperture, etc) but most customers want and end-to-end solution and Apple went some way to having that with XServe and OS X Server.

I think by making this move Apple have finally conceded that they are not good enough to operate outside the consumer level. Their server products just aren't good enough. Their server operating system isn't good enough. You may disagree with me because you work with this environment daily, and I won't argue with you, my point is this is the mindset of Apple's management. If they think that then you might as well give up on the Mac server concept altogether and look elsewhere - Linux or Windows.

What they are missing out on thought is an opportunity to test in the harsh corporate world and bring those technologies into the consumer market. How many people now have a NAS at home? Where's is Apple's NAS?

This along with the Lion announcement shows a worrying trend of dumbing down the entire Apple range and concentrating on task-based appliances. You don't need to know where your data is stored, you just need to use it. This might well work, but you still need somewhere to store it and as data quantities grow flash can't cut it for everything just yet. In a multi-user environment you need to manage access to it. Don't even get me started on backup and recovery.

Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu) must be rubbing his hands with glee at this announcement. I for one will be looking more closely at the Linux community from now on.
 
While I can understand why Apple discontinued it, I don't like this move. Sure, it might not sell well & Apple seems to want to be more of a consumer electronics company, having enterprise class servers can help that area. Here's my reasoning:

If Apple made good hardware & software for enterprises, these big companies might see that Macs are a good value. So they might buy other macs like iMacs are laptops. Then the employees would feel more comfortable with them and buy Macs and other Apple products for personal use. So xServes might not directly bring big bucks, but they could help drive more profitable areas.

What Apple really needs to do, IMO, is to make good, competitive rack mount servers for enterprise. Ones that could do web servers, file servers, and data center servers. Stuff that most, if not all, companies can use. It looks bad if Apple doesn't even use its own products in its own data centers.

Also, one other perk for enterprise use: brand names. Some other people mentioned this. If a company uses Linux or some other kind of open source OS, who do they call if there are problems? But with name brand companies, like Apple, you know who to call if something fails. Only draw back, that I can think of, is some people like to tweak the functions and with open source, you can do it easier.

Where I work, we use all Mac computers, except for a few PCs for PC only stuff. We have quite a few Xserves. I find that while they might be as powerful or inexpensive as other servers, they provide better interoperability with our client used computers.

Just my 2¢
 
You are so wrong it's unreal. I work in enterprise IT and ALL of our systems have massive redundancy, yet we still get 4 hour support. If a system has a drive fail, it still runs, but I cannot wait days to replace that drive, what if the other drive fails?

FYI, Dell's enterprise tech support does not go to India, it goes to Texas. Don't confuse crappy consumer tech support with enterprise support.

And you don't have backup drives on hand because.....? A drive fails in one of my machines I don't have to get anyone to come out(they couldn't anyway due to the sensitivity of the data). I just plug a new drive back in and off it goes. Done in 15 minutes instead of 4 hours.

Apple drives are hot swappable, and I'm pretty sure Dell drives are as well. Keeping drives on hand is a hell of a lot cheaper than getting 4 hour support. the one XServe we did have arrive DOA was swapped out within a day.

And maybe you got routed to Texas, but when our POS Dell 1950(which cost about the same as an XServe for similar specs) died we got routed to India and I had to explain to the dude several times that there wasn't any way I could get to the bios setup because the thing wouldn't even boot to that point. It took a couple days to get Dell to actually believe that we had a problem, then a couple weeks for them to actually do anything about it. Worst support ever.
 
Just because Apple is on top now don't expect that to hold forever.

When it happens, let us know. Might be a long time, though.

I remember the Commodore 64, too. I had one. In 1983.

I remember Sony and their Walkman. Even on their best day Sony couldn't do what Apple is doing now. This is totally unprecedented.
 
Wow, Apple just seems to be hellbent on continuing to shoot themselves in the foot don't they.

Awhile ago I argued to management that we should consider Xserves because we didn't have to mess with access licenses (CALs) like we do with Windows....our computer room is all rack mounted - good thing they didn't listen to me then. :rolleyes:
 
*All* companies need to innovate, LTD. otherwise they die.

XBox has been pretty competitive, windows mobile 7 will make more impact than its .

You still believe its due to licensing that microsoft do well.... fine , if you believe that - ignoring microsoft offer businesses the tools they require. In many cases there are not the software alternatives if microsoft was suddenly 'gone'.

Apple are limiting themselves, and won't have diversity: I just hope Apple don't become 'sony'.. cool once, now, not so much.

You know, Apple may be wanting those customer's its been pushing out, back...


No, they don't need to. That's the point. Microsoft will continue, by default, to reap the rewards of their licensing cash cow (for a little while longer, at least) and their enterprise cash cow (for many years to come.) MS has become a cash register that makes a gaming console.

Apple *needs* to innovate. The competition in the consumer sector is fierce, and consumers can be fickle. Have you seen what Apple's been doing since 2006? Product rollout every quarter. Something new every year. iPhones, iPads, etc. Apple's pace of product development has been blistering, to say the least. And guess what: the competition HAS NOT been coming from Microsoft in this area. It's from Google and others. When Apple has created a market in the past, the competition has not come from MS. MS doesn't even figure into the picture. Even in games, MS has virtually no mobile presence. And it's ALL about mobile now.
 
Okay, so maybe I'm missing something but this is how I see it.

Apple sells very few Xserves. Aside from an OS point of view, other systems make more sense, including Dell.
I would call it irresponsible for a company to waste efforts dedicating itself to products that the masses aren't interested in, and I for one would rather see the staff for those sections enrich upon the systems that people are actually using. Apple products are great, and I personally would rather see them use the extra resources better established product lines.
 


I don't think he was, but it seems you may have been. Which part of OS X becoming more like iOS did you not grasp there?
I'm well aware of that, and I saw it as a positive move rather than Apple moving away from the Mac. What part of bringing the App Store to OS X and encouraging developers to submit apps did you not grasp there?


Or how about Java support deprecation?
Good riddance. Java has always run like crap on every Mac I've ever had.

Apple, very sadly, is moving into an almost exclusively consumer device space and part of their strategy appears to be tighter control of their products.

So to re-iterate, Apple's focus is not on PCs, but rather on consumer iDevices and you can see that in the new version of OS X.

Yeah, Apple is gonna halt development of Final Cut and Logic, delete the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro and abandon the huge market that is professional users. How blind of me not to see it. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, Apple is gonna halt development of Final Cut and Logic, delete the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro and abandon the huge market that is professional users. How blind of me not to see it. :rolleyes:

By deprecating Java, and Oracle not picking up Java, Apple will be doing just that for a good amount of users.
 
When it happens, let us know. Might be a long time, though.

I remember the Commodore 64, too. I had one. In 1983.

I remember Sony and their Walkman. Even on their best day Sony couldn't do what Apple is doing now. This is totally unprecedented.

You've got the blinders on if you think Apple will continue its upward tread. Back then, people wouldn't thought Sony would be going through what it is now... and thats exactly what you think of Apple - that they will always be Top in the eye of the consumer.

when apple have driven out its non-consumer users, they'll have nothing to fall back on.. when the tide starts to turn - and history tells us, it will, even for Apple.
 
When it happens, let us know. Might be a long time, though.

I remember the Commodore 64, too. I had one. In 1983.

I remember Sony and their Walkman. Even on their best day Sony couldn't do what Apple is doing now. This is totally unprecedented.

In exactly what way is it "unprecedented"?

Nintendo had more of the market share of the video game market in the late 80s than Apple does, and while Nintendo isn't doing badly, they aren't doing all that well either.

Atari practically created the home console market. How are they doing nowadays?

Blockbuster dominated the video rental market, had about as high a market percentage as Apple has now in the consumer device market, how are they doing nowadays?

Motorola used to be the kings of mobile phones, they invented the things. How are they doing nowadays?(There is a perfect example of the company Apple will become, they abandoned a lot of their other businesses to focus on phones and ended up croaking because of it, they are on life support)

The list goes on. Consumers are fickle and are already showing signs of dumping iOS in favor of Android. And Apple is alienating a lot of its longtime defenders precisely because of moves like this. Face it, Apple is the next motorola. Thats not a good thing.
 
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