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Oh, yes, as Mac OS Server has only existed since the Xserves have been around. :rolleyes:

Reality check: the first Xserve shipped in 2002, while Mac OS X Server has been around since 1999, to say nothing of server configurations of Mac OS 9 or earlier...

And what's the use for server software without server hardware?
 
Oh, yes, as Mac OS Server has only existed since the Xserves have been around. :rolleyes:

Reality check: the first Xserve shipped in 2002, while Mac OS X Server has been around since 1999, to say nothing of server configurations of Mac OS 9 or earlier...

In 1999, vertical box servers were common. Now, not so much. The hardware they now sell does not meet minimum standards for most server applications.
 
I dont get it. I work for a fortune 500 were there are tons of users with MacBooks, iPhones, and iPads. We have not one OSX server. What does it matter?
Actually, you do get it - Apple's after the high growth segment where no one's else entirely entrenched, or in the case of the iPad, where they have total first mover advantage.

This isn't the end of Apple engaging the Fortune 500, 1000 and 2000 - it's the beginning. To extend Jobs' metaphor, if PC's are now the "trucks" of computing (notebooks - mobile small pickups, desktops - F-300's and Rams, with servers the semi-trucks), then, yes Apple's exiting the big truck market. I wish they weren't, 'cos it seems like they could leverage their whole hot brand - and throw enough engineering at a server to make a very competitive X-Serve if they wanted to.

And provide national service through their new agreement with Unisys for iPads and iPhones.

So you have to figure the folk at the hottest tech company in the world have run the numbers for all kinds of scenarios and concluded that in their overall game plan, this segment is no longer strategic and that ROI would remain unacceptable.

Because the server market is a commodity market and a mature market that's fully penetrated by entrenched competitors (except for incremental overall growth). It's difficult to imagine a way for Apple to make a product differentiated enough to give them both 35% (i.e., Apple-like) gross margins and be that much better than existing servers so that the corporate world would scarf them up by the 10's of thousands a pop.

By the same token, Apple gives more love to laptops than desktops and within desktops, more to the iMac than the MacPro. They realize better than most other companies that the trend is their friend and prioritize their R&D and marketing accordingly.

If you had a business where your new division - from a standing start in 7 years - became twice as big and profitable as your previous main business had in 30 years, and where you had new paradigm (iPhone) and first mover (iPad) advantage, where would you focus your development resources?

And if you say everywhere (because Apple has so much cash), you really don't understand business. It's about span of control, that is, Apple mgmt. can only effectively keep their eyes on so many balls at once. They're increasing the number as fast as they can. And it's about talent, that is, there are only so many gifted people on the market to do the work without getting into a salary bidding war. For two examples. Just "having the money" is not a complete answer.

Alas poor X-Serve, I knew thee a bit. Hello, iOS, iOLion, TV and the cloud.
 
Actually, you do get it - Alas poor X-Serve, I knew thee a bit. Hello, iOS, iOLion, TV and the cloud.

And goodbye MacOS, video editing, graphics and design, and workstations..

I fully expect to not be working on Mac workstations at my company in 5 years. The only desktop Mac then will be the iMac, which will be a glorified tablet.
 
Oh, well. How many markets has Apple pulled out of so far? Cameras, CD Players, PDAs, Educational markets, rack mounted servers, what's next? Personal Computers? I don't like what Apple is doing. I know that in the future, it may be said, there was a time when people didn't want their computers to be huge iPads. For example, why take away the scroll bars? Unless there is an option in System Preferences to return them, I won't be happy :mad:.


AnonMac50
 
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Except to support your existing Mac infrastructure. Let's face it, I'm not going to manage imaging from some remote provider going through the Internet. I'll do it on my private WAN/MAN/LAN. Same for local authentication, I'm not going to run the risk of having all my accounts sitting in some datacenter not under my control, I'm going to want to run that locally.

Same for update management. Centralized updating solutions like WSUS and Update Server exist because I don't want every client on the network going out to the Internet and pulling random updates. I want to manage which updates and I want to save on bandwidth by running my local depot.

Cloud computing is not the be all, end all of computing. Again, people are listening more to the hype than the actual substance. While the cloud may be good for somethings, it won't replace every server in every shop.

Indeed but even in MacOSXServer very few if any of these services are running in the Mac Layers of the system but deeper down, most could run just as well on a Darwin machine or any unix like system (not sure about FinalCut haven't had any dealings). The only part that is really Mac specific is the configuration/management tools and they can run on remote machine just as well as the server hardware.

They could in theory re-gear the server system as a series of Darwin base VM images for each service which could on any hardware then Apple don't need to make hardware just concentrate on the configuration system.

What is strange is the timing if they were re-gearing the server system wouldn't they wait till Lion and not the opening of the MacAppStore. They need to have some plan and they really need to tell us what it is. As you say a lot people rely on the system and need to be able to plan on it going forward in a decent way.
 
to those that think a mac or mac mini can replace this obviously don't even know what the product is. Please stop trying to down play this and make general realizations that no one uses servers anymore. Pretty soon, things will be served virtually and thin clients accessing them. servers and hardware is where the future is going, not overpriced consumer hardware passed off as servers
 
Whiny ? That's because there's a lot more investment in an enterprise platform than a laptop purchase. Some of the people using X serve invested a lot in their infrastructure and Apple in one, unannounced fell swoop probably destroyed months of planning and created many more months of figuring out how to migrate the current infrastructure to some other platform.

Mac OS X server still works on Mac Pros.

This is a space issue more so than a platform issue.


And let's face it, people with large Mac deployments still need the Apple tools that OS X server offers, yet they've now been shown the finger as far as enterprise grade hardware they need.

Because they all had dual power supplies, RS-232 DB9 hooked up XServes.

A Mac Pro will provide the same services over the same wires. Different rack space ( especially if forced to store them vertically in a rack).





Not to mention the people running FC Server that really have no migration path at all anymore.

FC Server had some unique XServe electronic hardware feature????


You don't just "drop" enterprise products if you want to be taken seriously in the enterprise. This might change a few minds that were about to purchase a couple of iPhones/iPads for corporate deployment.

It is marginally better than the XServe RAID desupport. At least folks have 2 months to buy one if seriously need one and there are still Apple alternatives (not 100% equivalent but alternatives).


If a future Mac Pro next Fall gets just a couple of "Back to the Mac from XServe" upgrades this will be muted alot.

a. Mac Pro that can convert to a horizontal 4U mount. (just make a way to loose the handles by undoing some latches or something like that. )
b. 2-3 front mounted 2.5" drive sleds slots with lock and indicator lights. ( still useful on Mac Pro too)
c. plug-in Lights-out card.
d. SSD card slot ( sheesh even the MBA got one of those )

Not sure how get 900W dual power supplies in there though.

If strip away the case and just look at Mac Pro motherboard the vast majority of the stuff there is exactly the same as the XServe. In fact there are more slot so can have more flexibility. It would not be hard to mutate the Mac Pro slightly so that could also be leveraged as a server without taking anything away from it being a Workstation.

It wouldn't be a conventional 1U server but it would work for those who had a couple extra 1U spaces left in rack. I think people are downplaying that factor. There was a huge overlap in functionality and pricing between the Mac Pro and XServes. Geting rid of that will help the Mac Pro and thereby allow Apple to continue offering a "bigger than mini" server.
Annoying that will probably have to wait to till next Fall to see the updates for Mac Pro but can easily work out.

For problems where only needed less that 1U compute power.... again very minor updates to the Mini will solve that. Could see a retweaked Mac Mini Server by June. ( 1-2 SSD drive (to give back some internal space) , Core i5 part (swap space with hard drive for i5 + discrete GPU ) , and maybe two Ethernet ports (dropping some of the USB ones) would go long way to solving a few of its problems).

Again you can still use most of those updates on a regular Mac Mini so not really hurting anything to put them on without Mac OS X Server.


Sure they will miss some folks who needed less than a Mac Pro (less than 4U) and more than a mini (more an a 0.5U ) .... Same way they miss the mythical mini tower now. Guess what that isn't coming back either, but hasn't exactly hampered market share either.

If more people buy Mac Pros ....... that is a good thing. Especially since too few people buying XServes is exactly why they disappeared.

What is strange is the timing if they were re-gearing the server system wouldn't they wait till Lion and not the opening of the MacAppStore. They need to have some plan and they really need to tell us what it is. As you say a lot people rely on the system and need to be able to plan on it going forward in a decent way.

If they are doing major case, hardware tweaks to Mac Pro for next Fall they are doing that now and have been doing it for many months. So why side track engineering resources this Spring/Summer to tweak the XServe with a minor speed bump when they can be working a throughoutly revised Mac Pro for next Fall. Lion comes next Fall. If trying to align hardware with it you have to be working on the hardware NOW. That means not thinning out our resources so thin can't get new stuff out the door.

For instance apple could have part of old XServe team working on putting the lights-out ability onto a PCI-e board or onto a motherboard for incorporation into the new Mac Pro. Same with front mounted, lockable disks (although likely limited to 2.5" ) .

In short, there are aspects of the XServes that can extract and weave into Mac Pro that would mean not all of the functionality folks are complaining about competely goes away.


the Mac App store has nothing to do with this other than perhaps sucking up Mac OS X resources and attention. the Mac App store is a diversion. It has nothing to do with Lion even though they introduced it in the Lion presentation.

If looking for ominous. Nuking java and then nuking XServe is a combo that will rattle more nerves than the Mac App store in the server space.
 
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I sent this to Apple via: http://www.apple.com/feedback/xserve.html

With the discontinuation of the Xserve, I need some kind of solution which will allow me to get Mac OS X Server through the datacenter doors.

Xserve was already dubious, and it was only with reluctance and grumbling that our datacenter admins actually racked our Xserven. There's no way on earth I'll get the jumbo Mac Pro through the door. Its size wouldn't be such a big deal if it had the kind of enterprise features that are required for a datacenter, but it doesn't even have those. Mac mini's quite frankly a toy or personal server, and is not even an option for shortlisting.

In the absence of a hardware solution which is even vaguely enterprise-suitable, I actually genuinely fear for the future of the client Macs at our organization. It means that at their end of life, there will be no replacement for those servers, and no further implementation of Mac OS X Server. Which means all the management solutions we rely on to keep our Macs properly managed and consistent with our Windows clients (NetBoot, Open Directory/MCX, etc) will go away, and machines will be imaged and managed on an ad-hoc basis, behaving no better than people randomly bringing their home Mac - with gawd knows what on it - into work. And the perception of the Mac being nothing more than a home computer is just the excuse Management will need to do away with them entirely.

Ultimately, I don't care about Xserve per-se. But that it was the only justifiable way to implement Mac OS X Server in an enterprise, and prove that Macs can be managed just as well as other platforms. But that's no longer the case.

I don't really care what solution you come up with - Mac OS X Server on non-Apple hardware, virtualization on non-Apple hardware, something else entirely - but make no mistake, you need one. Without one, Mac OS X client in large organizations is going to suffer, and suffer badly.
 
Mac OS X server still works on Mac Pros.

This is a space issue more so than a platform issue.




Because they all had dual power supplies, RS-232 DB9 hooked up XServes.

A Mac Pro will provide the same services over the same wires. Different rack space ( especially if forced to store them vertically in a rack).

You have never worked in a data center. Seriously. Suggesting a Mac Pro will get you fired. How do you even swap out a drive without having to shutdown the damn thing and take it out of the rack ?

The Mac Pro is fail and doesn't scale for enterprise applications. It may be fine if all you need is one, but as soon as you scale beyond about 5, it's just not feasible.

Anyone suggesting otherwise is a pure apologist.
 
.... and handling it all on a 1st gen Xserve as our OD master, a G5 Mac Pro as a second OD box, an '08 Xserve for JSS, MySQL, AFP and some other tools and a new Xserve for Netboot and SUS.

... I'm really hoping Apple is about to open virtualization on vanilla hardware. 'Cause there's slim to no chance of dragging Mac Pros in the server room (that G5 is unwanted as it is)...

There would be a very good chance if Apple allowed bare bones virtualization on a Mac Pro. A 12+ core Mac Pro with something like ESXi could do the work of all of those boxes. You'd be going from 7U ( 1 + 4 + 1 + 1 ) down to 4U. You also probably cut you electricity draw in half too. When the requests are of the form " I'm going to remove 4U and insert 3U worth of space ", usually that doesn't have lots of problems.

What is completely lost in several of these "I have a rack full of 3-5 year old 1U XServes " is that you may not need a rack full of servers to do that anymore. Lots of these workloads ( LDAP, provisioning , etc.) haven't grown all that much. You may need 4-5 virtual servers, but often there is no pressing requirement for 4-5 physical ones. Not when 6, 12 , and next Fall 16 cores potential consolidation boxes coming.

Far too many shops just blindly do 1U for 1U swaps of boxes. Often the go from servers running around 50% utiliztaion to severs running at 25% utilization. One more of those one-for-one swaps and you've got 10% utiilzation across the board on a whole row of racks burning up gobs of electricity. Just not a good methodology but it is simplistic.

Now probably want to avoid consolidating the primary and secondary OD onto the same box, but later with with two Mac Pro you can still keep the primary/secondaries separated, but that don't necessarily have to be running raw on separate physical servers.

The dodge into virtualization on "low cost servers" is solely to put he workload onto cheaper boxes. I would be very surprised if Apple allowed that. There is a better chance that perhaps Apple allows VMWare to roll out a customized embedded ESXi that only runs on Mac Pros that only allows you to put Mac OS X Server VMs on Apple branded hardware.

It isn't a big leap for VMWare. Running Mac OS X Server VMs has to work in Fusion anyway. This would be just making it work on raw Mac Pro hardware with the lightweight hypervisor and probalby make some some mods so didn't violate Apple licensing (so their lawyers are happy). Apple and VMWare would have to cooperate and certify the config but Apple and VMWare could pay for that by making folks pay $100-200 (or something reasonable) for the special custom ESXi boot drive. In a sense ESXi running on a Mac Pro is just software running on Apple hardware... so Apple doesn't have to block that. However, they would have to assit them with booting directly onto EFI (no bootcamp misdirection ) .



A racked Mac Pro is in many context a better consolidation box than a XServe would be. Most likely will have redudant Ethernet and storage network coming out of the box which requires more PCI-e slots..... hence 4U isn't that bad.

Missing dual power supply but many can get by without it. (it wasn't standard on the XServes).
 
A racked Mac Pro is in many context a better consolidation box than a XServe would be. Most likely will have redudant Ethernet and storage network coming out of the box which requires more PCI-e slots..... hence 4U isn't that bad.

Missing dual power supply but many can get by without it. (it wasn't standard on the XServes).

Missing hot swap drives, hot swap power supplies, taking 4Us for 12 cores/32 GB Ram.

Just no.

Missing redundant power supplies is one thing, but missing all these features, using more power and taking up more space ?

At this point, Apple's only hope if they don't want to sell X serve hardware is to permit OS X server in VMs on something other than Apple hardware. That would be perfect.

Again, you have never worked in a datacenter.
 
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Clearly there are many end users on here with no idea where their content comes from or is hosted. Here is the bottom line of this for me. Without a real server I can not justify Apple servers and therefore not Apple services. Without the Apple services I can't support using Apple devices. Which ultimately means that 5,000 students and their teachers will not use Apple devices on a day-to-day basis. Why would we go to the iPad for text books when I can not manage their content from an Apple solution? At the same time Dell has real servers and is developing an integrated server to device solution that will be cheaper than the iPad. While I only have two Xserves, not having them means not supporting Apple devices period. We had just replaced an Xserve with another Xserve as our mail server, Had i known this was coming I would have replaced it with a Dell or HP, and I also would not have bought my own MacBook Pro or the case of iPhone 4's we just bought. Without a viable server platform Apple becomes just a company selling toys.

James.

this about sums it up. for all the fanboys clamoring about their goddam iphones, realize that IT departments think in a top-down structured way. they realize that whatever "device" you're clamoring about needs something to support it.

i wonder if the board of directors at apple is paying notice and realizing that this bottom-up approach to listening to consumer wants is unsustainable in the long run without a tech-centered and savvy IT crowd to support it. once the consumer market is saturated, everyone has an iphone, then what for apple? they were at the verge where they could have really made some long-term gains into the enterprise/pro/IT market, with a strong mac pro lineup, the devices making their way into IT now, all they had to do was realize they needed to continue all the way to the top with the server. making short-term gains in a company can only last so long until you have no more room to make any moves. all of you defending, well this is just about money, xserve didnt make any money so it makes sense to cut it, dont realize that to truly make money, you have be able to survive as a company, and that means long-term solutions, as well as short-term new-fangled products. maybe it really is time for jobs to gtfo and get someone in there that could truly make the company into a dominant IT player. all it would take would be some support in the enterprise market. jobs is so short-sighted he's throwing away money (remember your argument its all about the money!) in the long-term by abanding enterprise and marginializing pro with the dumbed-down ios garbage.

its like they're doing the exact opposite of what ibm by getting rid of their pc division. they sold off the low-margin short-term product, and refocused on servers and *support*. the company is doing good now. they're making big inroads into governement other big markets because they think long term and top down. all apple did was become the next lenovo, to sell cheap underpowered crap that might as well be made in china and can easily be replaced. bad move, jobs
 
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This is sick and twisted!

Apple has discontinued the Xserve, in a couple of years they will discontinue the Mac pro, then they will stop producing all of the desktop products! It will be only ios devices and MacBooks. And I'm sure that eventually they will stop all MacBooks except the air. So their lineup will be MacBook air, iPad, iPhone and iPod.
 
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This is sick and twisted!

Apple has discontinued the Xserve, in a couple of years they will discontinue the Mac pro, then they will stop producing all of the desktop products! It will be only ios devices and MacBooks. And I'm sure that eventually they will stop all MacBooks except the air. So their lineup will be MacBook air, iPad, iPhone and iPod.

Hey, so can you tell me who wins the next 5 SuperBowls too? So glad to find a real psychic!

How do people make these leaps in logic? Actually, this is less of a leap and more of a Superman-style flight around the world kinda jump.

jW
 
i'm really sad to see this go. i know that they have the mini server and a mac pro server config, but come on. the xserve was the only rack mount. the big enterprise markets use rack mounts. so i guess apple isn't trying to capture that space anymore
 
I read over the official statement from Apple. I as amazed at how they referenced the mini server as their best selling server more than once. The thing that got my attention the most however is the reference to this transition period, while they also make it clear Apple will not be making Xserves again. What is the transition to? (or am I reading something into this?)
 
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This is sick and twisted!

Apple has discontinued the Xserve, in a couple of years they will discontinue the Mac pro, then they will stop producing all of the desktop products! It will be only ios devices and MacBooks. And I'm sure that eventually they will stop all MacBooks except the air. So their lineup will be MacBook air, iPad, iPhone and iPod.
And the 12 other new lines they'll be in (none of the products you project in their future line up existed 7 years ago).

This is an innovation company that knows how to develop, design, build and market new directions in technology. Their whole premise is based on creating and/or taking over new device/software classes, not on being the last manufacturer/promulgator of buggywhips, ice boxes, telegraph key sets - or floppy disk drives, parallel ports, dot matrix printers and rack-mounted 1U servers.

Get used to it. There will be continuing collateral damage as Apple keeps re-inventing itself and its favored parts of our digital ecosystem, and more products - and ports - and confiurations get jettisoned. It's what the resurrected Apple does.

The real danger would be if they become staid, focused on the current state of the art and start defending declining or slow growth markets.
 
The position that Apple has in the enterprise market is unsustainable so with 50b in cash, If I was Apple I would be paying close attention to Dell's stock, as a potential acquisition.
 
A lot of comments about a server

I think it's clear that very few XServes were being sold, so Apple got out of that game. It makes sense, too. Servers are generally out of the way, in a separate room or closet where no one needs to look at them (so Apple making them beautiful doesn't enter into the equation the way it would with a consumer item). Enterprise items are also sold with very objective line-item reasoning, so Apple's brilliance at appealing to emotional buying doesn't factor in either.

If XServes sold very well, then you can bet that Apple would be "an enterprise company", but it didn't work out the same way that MP3 players didn't work out so hot for Dell. It's not something they're great at. Nor is it necessary that they should be great at it. Maybe Apple doesn't belong in this area. I can imagine myself being a billionaire entrepreneur who chooses to run his Fortune 500 company off Apple's XServes, but this isn't the reality.

I'm sorry to see it go, because I'm a fan of pretty much everything Apple does and because it was beautiful, but I'm sure there will be some new items coming our way to make us soon forget about XServes.

And for those lamenting the rise of iOS, I say to use your imagination. I'm a pro user – an art director who works in Photoshop, After Effects, Illustrator, and a few other high end softwares. There is no reason that, in the future, any of these applications couldn't find themselves being launched with one click in iOS. My 27" iMac with an attached 30" cinema display, keyboard and Wacom tablet could drive iOS. Creation in an application is the important thing: writing the document, designing the billboard or website, using CAD software... The OS can change in any number of ways and we could all continue to do our jobs. This will need updates to iOS for sure, but there's no reason that launching and updating top end 3D software like Maya couldn't be done the same way as Angry Birds one day.
 
Can people that never ever touch an Xserve and/or never ever used a server, yet alone been in a datacenter please stop commenting?

Not to sound rude or anything but it is pretty obvious that you people that dont work with servers, and not even close to understanding how Xserve was being used, ofcourse it is easy for you to say that the loss of Xserve is no big deal and we can adopt easily to other platforms.

To me, a Mac Pro or even Mac Mini is enough to manage iCal, update server, webhosting, client management, general ease of management and so on but i need a powerful rendering cluster and i have no space for Mac Pro, also if i wanted to expand my webhosting a Mac Pro environment is no go, sure, i can move to other platform but what alot of people dont realise, hardware is cheap, support and management isnt, thats the beauty of Xserve and OS X Server, i can manage almost and infinite number of Xserves but if i change to an Linux environment i will need atleast one dedicated server manager, it would cost me atleast 50-60´000USD a year, that would buy me alot of extra computing performance in a rendering cluster.

Qmaster is a bonjour app so it took me a maximum of 3 minutes to set up a rendering cluster with an indefinite number of servers, try that with Linux or Windows, yes i still can expand the cluster with Mac Pros but as i said, i have no space for it.
 
Wow, this thread really separates the men from the Apple-apologists. I can't believe how much out-of-arse arguing is going on here.

The well-developed egos have spoken and the arguments seem to boil down to:

"I don't see Xserves in use, so they must not be in use."

"My server doesn't need server-class hardware, so what's the big deal?"

In other words:

"I never learned to look beyond my own perspective, so I judge your take on this based on how it would effect me."

Small minded noise.

Look, consider just one of the Xserves I work with, this one at a graphic design company I support... if the power supply goes, it jumps to the other PSU and nobody knows the difference. If a hard drive goes, I hot swap it. No interruption for the end users though.

If either of those things happens on a Mac Pro, then 8 artists can't work for hours while I get it sorted out, and that's assuming I'm immediately available to come in and address it. That's a lot of man hours lost to something that is easily covered by having server-class hardware.

Incidentally, I just had a power supply blow on a Mac Pro at this place, puff of smoke and everything.

Apple's margins may be small on the Xserve, but that shouldn't matter. As karsten noted, IT departments "think in a top-down structured way". So the value of the Xserve should be measured beyond its profit margins, as it is of tremendous value to those who maintain groups of Macs.

The fact is, the value of the Server OS is diminished greatly by the loss of legitimate server hardware to run it, so until Apple changes our minds, I can't see how any IT administrator could work under any assumption other than that Apple will discontinue their Server OS as well. If that's not Apple's plan or if they will eventually change the Mac Pro to become a viable Xserve alternative, then they really screwed up by not making a specific announcement to that effect.
 
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