Apple Discussed 'Punitive Measures' Against Netflix for Dropping In-App Purchases

[PlayUltimate]

If Apple wasn't offering their streaming service, I'd be on Apple side, but since they also offer Apple TV, I'm on Netflix side. It's unfair for Apple TV to offer at practically discounted price compared to netflix. What if Apple does another new business that would hurt already established business through apple platform?

Are you really arguing that the AppleTV streaming service is nearly equivalent (price) and competition for Netflix?
And was discussed before Apple has lots of service the compete with well-established and very profitable businesses.
Apple Notes (free): Evernote, Bear, Notability
Apple Calendar (free): Fantastical, Moleskine TimePage.
Apple Reminders (free): Things, OmniFocus, Todoist

if it was not for the creation and open development that the iOS ecosystem provided, most of these would not exist.

 

[quarkysg]

Are you trolling? I guess - well the EU anti trust commission can decide whatever the want to decide. Apple is selling its products within the EU so the trade commission could force Apple that it is not legitimate that Spotify has to pay 15-30% to Apple while Apple Music doesn't has to pay any transaction fees.

But since it isn't possible that you don't know about the power of anti trust agencies ... ><(((º>

Well then, we'll just have to wait and see what the EU does then would we?

And why are you accusing me of trolling when you said you have the power to create rules, and I therefore asked for your guidance on how to go about doing it, and yet, I still did not get any answers?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Please, Netflix is not build in Xcode at all. The iOS app, is just a “viewer” so to say to display what is being run on Netflix their own servers. The actual code is being run on the side of Netflix, including the servers.

You must be out of your mind that Apple requires 30% commission for “marketing”, when Netflix is not famous because of Apple. Apple literally has nothing to do with it.

My Samsung smart TV also has apps like Netflix and it even comes pre-installed. That is more marketing than what Apple has ever done for Netflix, and Samsung does not get a 30% commission.

I never said Netflix IS coded in Xcode.

explain to me the full cost of coding an app, including paying the SDK (Dreamweaver comes to mind), then uploading for a central or multiple sites, then taking into account bandwidth for up/down, marketing, then dealing with uploading many versions of your app each cycle to multiple sites to maintain same version to upload and for various screen sizes and resolutions. Then add bug fixes for each.

no estimates but real world pricing. Then holla back about the 30%. Oh then let’s include PlayStation versions since 3, xbox and smart TVs which are an OS based as well.

 

[I7guy]

Do you hear yourself?

Loud and clear.

Basic high school class teaches this. More choices, more competition = better for consumers.

More choice for me, may not work out to more choice for you. Isn't that what capitalism teaches?

Look how many phone companies added features which pushes Apple to add them as well. Everyone loves the third telephoto lens. You wouldn't have that unless we had more choices.

You're right. I love the new features in the cameras. But that is not the discussion at hand. The discussion is related to the app store, fees and commissions. And with that discussion, I do not support an open model.

 

[Madmic23]

Really?

hmm. Apple creates 3 awesome platforms with years of support to both developers/companies and the end users:
OS support (TVOS, iOS, iPadOS),
SDK always updated and if your code is good or great your app will work,
Distribution and Bandwidth - developer/company uploads 1 time (NO COST), and reaches over a billion devices and users!
Marketing - 1 simple writeup and Apple helps you continually advertise, relate to your competition towards end users, vastly superior search for your wares. Again at NO COST to you or the end user really. VERY important if your logo or your app is similar to others.

I'm not saying that Apple doesn't do anything beneficial, but what I'm saying is people don't have a Netflix or Spotify subscription because they have an iPhone. It's convenient that they can use those services on their phone, but the phone and iOS is not the reason why they signed up.

If you're talking about a game or an app that is only available on iOS than I agree, Apple deserves that 30% cut. Especially if it is a "free" game with in-app purchases.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I draw the line at Apple not allowing apps to direct people where they should go. I think that is completely ridiculous and a bad user experience.

 

[AdonisSMU]

If Apple wasn't offering their streaming service, I'd be on Apple side, but since they also offer Apple TV, I'm on Netflix side. It's unfair for Apple TV to offer at practically discounted price compared to netflix. What if Apple does another new business that would hurt already established business through apple platform?

I have Apple TV and the price is 9.99. That is not discounted when you consider Apple is making its own content and not simply buying other company’s content. TBqH it’s expensive for what you get.

Netflix on the other hand has to pay the licensing fees for the vast majority of their content. It also has more content. So it is worth more.

 

[AppliedMicro]

What it seems like to me you’re asking for, is for the government to create a smartphone platform to compete against Google and Apple

In no way am I asking for the government to build and operate one.
But they may regulate access and pricing. Just as phone networks and train services are often operated by private companies - but regulated by the government.

These are not life and death REQUIRED apps to live

Well, you may believe governments and antitrust regulators should only regulate access to "life and death required" things. Others don't.

My grandparents function just fine without all those apps you listed, and even without a smartphone in general.

What about your high school kids? Do they function just fine without one too?

 

[Channan]

And they’ve been found guilty of illegally colluding with book publishers to raise prices of ebooks in the past. Something that lots of people on this forum supported. Bafflingly.

Yeah, it’s so funny seeing reactions to posts in topics like this, and knowing who gives unconditional support to Apple no matter what. Apple could get caught dumping plastic into the ocean and you’d still have people here saying that’s their right and downvoting anyone that says Apple should get in trouble for that.

 

[UBS28]

I never said Netflix IS coded in Xcode.

explain to me the full cost of coding an app, including paying the SDK (Dreamweaver comes to mind), then uploading for a central or multiple sites, then taking into account bandwidth for up/down, marketing, then dealing with uploading many versions of your app each cycle to multiple sites to maintain same version to upload and for various screen sizes and resolutions. Then add bug fixes for each.

no estimates but real world pricing. Then holla back about the 30%. Oh then let’s include PlayStation versions since 3, xbox and smart TVs which are an OS based as well.

Microsoft is selling their consoles at a loss. They make their money of selling games.

And at the same time, Microsoft allows Xbox games to be played across any type of device threw Xcloud. So Xbox games can be played on your iPhone, tablet, PC or Mac.

So really, you cannot compare what Microsoft does relative to Apple, who makes a tonne of money threw hardware alone. If Apple was selling their iPhone’s, Mac’s at a loss, then you can compare it to Microsoft.

And hosting the Netflix app which is only a few MB’s does not require 30% of Netflix their sales. That is absolutely nuts. And what marketing does Apple do? You realise that companies like Netflix and Spotify did not get famous because of Apple right? Sure as hell not worth 30% of Netflix their sales.

On the other hand, Netflix has much much much higher server costs as they are hosting all the movies and TV shows themselves, not Apple.

 

[Wanted797]

“In a nutshell, iOS users who subscribed to Netflix through in-app purchases were cancelling their Netflix accounts at a greater rate.”

Because it makes it easy.

They Hey app being banned was nothing but a double standard.

 

[Stewie]

Back in December 2018, Netflix stopped offering in-app subscription options for new or resubscribing members

This is not correct. I can still go back into my subscriptions and pay for nextflix via apple if I want. I have cancelled and restarted my subscription many times since 2018.

 

[threesixty360]

I agree that the App Store massively benefitted indie devs. The recent move to 15% for them is great too.

I think this argument breaks down for medium sized/bigger companies who have their own payment systems, customer support and marketing budgets - and who could (presumably) pay Microsoft or Amazon to host their downloads.

The App Store for them then starts to feel like a mafia style made up tax - a ‘platform tax’, if you will.

I actually get this point.
My counter to that is that this is exactly how Apple defends indie devs, by trying to force everyone to play by the same rules in the App Store. Big companies in the normal world have economies of scale that indie's and solo devs dont have. That is what gives them their success. Apple removes that. Because your adobe you dont get more "shelf space" on the store than lumafusion. Because your Spotify with billions you cant use that to dictate where your distributed vs say overcast. Everyone (within reason) gets pretty much the same shot and the same resources within the store.

If Apple opens us side loading and all the other things these medium / large companies want all that will happen is that they will leverage that to destroy competition for indie developers. I've seen this film before.. it always ends this way!

People should be careful with what they wish for regarding this Epic lawsuit. It won't end well for small devs at all.

 

[dilbert99]

There was a discussion. There was no retaliation or bullying.

Are you saying it is ok to discuss retaliation?

 

[mansplains]

My only problem is that when devs pushing iAPs decided to remove them from apps most didn't drop the price to compensate for the cut Apple couldn't take. Obviously it's not obligatory, they decide what their services cost, but if the argument is that it's better for the consumer I would think a discount is a far better incentive than any other 'benefit' they could muster.

 

[Gasu E.]

C'mon Apple, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't tell developers that they need to make sure any in-app purchases go through Apple so that Apple gets a cut and then try to force them to make all of the purchases on their platform go through the app.

Apple isn't trying to force ALL Netflix customers to make their purchases through the app. It's the opposite. Netflix is trying to disallow ANY purchases from going through the app. So, no Netflix revenue would come to Apple, but Apple would still have to support Netflix app developers.

 

[Gasu E.]

Are you saying it is ok to discuss retaliation?

Apple is providing extraordinary services to Netflix that are not offered to other developers, such as favored promotion. So, Apple would be ending that favored treatment in "retaliation" for Netflix preventing any revenue from going to Apple. You see some ethical issue there?

 

[Gasu E.]

It implies Apple is willing to retaliate against developers who don't do what Apple wants, even if they are still in compliance with Apple's own rules. Being so casually mentioned in an email also implies it may be the norm at Apple. I doubt the Judge will buy into the implication without stronger evidence, though; it seems to just suggest wrongdoing as a possibility rather than prove it occurs.

You have no idea what this "retaliation" would be. Read the article. Apple provides favored promotional opportunities to Netflix in return for the opportunity to share in revenue. Don't you think Apple should withdraw that favoritism if Netflix shut the out of revenue sharing completely?

 

[xyz01]

No dev uses the App Store for free. You have to pay to be listed... annually.

Apple App Store would be nothing without these third party devs. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
Apple devices brought people in... an abundance of quality third party apps keep them there.

Not only the App Store would be nothing - the iPhone and the iPad would themselves be nothing and sales would fall to almost nothing if there were no thirdparty apps.

IPhone/IPad is a multipurpose platform - like Windows and MacOS - just portable. Providing APIs etc to the platform isn't an argument for extracting extra payments, it's the reason it exists as a popular platform customers pay for and which they earn _a lot_ of money on. I don't think we need to move towards a world where the platform owner can extract a large cut of everything that happens on said platform...

 

[Unregistered 4U]

So Google was regulated and had to pay a fine (as far as I remember).

Just searched for “Apple” with Google. That’s some pretty effective regulation! Almost everything on that first page is ad driven. What, exactly was the regulation supposed to do, drive even more ad revenue to Google?

 

[xyz01]

Can we agree that Apple has long made user experience a focus of theirs?

Would you say that not being able to join Netflix within their own app and instead having to go elsewhere to do so, it less than the best user experience?

Is it difficult to see that Apple might want popular apps to provide the best user experience?

Wouldn't you say that having a link "click here to sign up" leading to the the Netflix signup page is a good user experience - much better than nothing?

Apple's care here is 30% of all the revenue Netflix get from their services to that customer, not the experience. If if truly was UX only, I'm sure Apple would be able to find a solution that could work...

 

[Unregistered 4U]

In no way am I asking for the government to build and operate one.
But they may regulate access and pricing. Just as phone networks and train services are often operated by private companies - but regulated by the government.

Soooo, you want the Nationalization of private companies? I mean, it’s been done in other countries, might be able to work in the US, too. And, as part of that regulation of access, I’m PRETTY sure that the government wouldn’t require back doors so they can have access to your private data. It’s not like that’s something that would interest the US government at all.

Should we also Nationalize the cellular carriers? Because it doesn’t matter how many phones you give people if they don’t have a data plan (and they’re not going to give it away for free!) You may also want to look into Nationalizing the ISP’s, too, so you can have them provide wireless access for areas not served by a cellular signal.

 

[Press22]

When it comes to being fair I think Apple should lower or waive the IAP fees for services in which they are also a competitor in. (TV, Music, etc)
Especially if they are using these third party services data to learn and make their own service better.

OR
Allow these third party services to redirect their users to where they can subscribe. Apple making them hide that is definitely greedy and shady practice.

 

[TomOSeven]

and now other companies want to use it for free

lmao, are you serious?

Imagine Netflix pulled their app from iOS, how many people would think twice before buying another iPad?

 

[orthorim]

The content business can quickly get very sleazy and this shows that Apple is in the thick of it.

It's nice making hardware. Selling great products at high prices. Everyone wins!

But then ... content came along... and sleaziness found its way in... now they can't open up the app store, it would eat into profits... they can't lower the rates, eats into profits... and so on

They don't bully people, at least not to their face, they do it the sleazy way through the back door where there is plausible deniability, except if you have court documents showing otherwise. Featuring them, and "solving" the issue of cancelations - that's another sleazy move, that's people who forgot they're subscribed which is the biggest business in any subscription scheme. Next thing, Apple makes it easier to forget to unsubscribe... hey we got the big data AI saying it's going to raise profits 10%, screw those people, lets take their cash.

Featuring a corporate giant - sure! All it is is kow-towing for the money. It's gross guys! And don't tell me its just business it's not

Apple loves the little guy, the artists... except when it comes to making a dime, then it's F these hippies and grab as much as you can.

So heres my little rant, I don't understand how people are OK with corporations lying. If your neighbor lied to you every day, you'd hate the guy - and you'd be right. But if Apple lies day in day out, whenever they get caught, everyone is just like "oh well, it's in the name of profit".

Does that make it OK?

Because I don't think so. Yeah it's legal, that doesn't make it OK either. I don't tolerate lies. Corporations that lie - screw them too. Except currenly basically all of them do because we have accepted as normal that advertisements are lying, and corporates are always lying if there's even a bit of cash to protect. That's ridiculous.