Apple Distributing Safari for Windows via iTunes

[Syrus28]

It all comes down to this:

People are running a program called "Apple Software Update" on the intention to update their apple software (iTunes, QuickTime), NOT on the intention of getting a new browser. As simple as that. Call them stupid or not, but the majority of people DONT look at what their updating, especially when its a company like Apple, or Microsoft, which they probably trust. Its not the same as willfully installing a virus, unless the virus was coming from an updater program with Apple's name.

If they feel that's the only way they can compete in the browser market, then thats pitiful. Firefox has about 30% market share and all those installs were WILLINGLY, as in people went to mozilla.com and downloaded firefox.

Apple is playing dirty with Safari on Windows. Its as simple as that.

 

[BongoBanger]

I'm not sure what the issue is here as I can't honestly see that many people bothering with Safari given that although it's slightly faster on some pages than Firefox it just doesn't have the add ons.

*Loves FoxyTunes, AdBlock Plus, Linkification and Stumble Upon*

 

[Clix Pix]

Last night I was helping a friend with her WIN XP machine, and one of the thing we needed to do was to update iTunes. I was surprised to see Safari listed in there. After a brief discussion -- she didn't know what Safari was, so I quickly explained -- we decided to download and install it. When we tried it out, both of us were amazed at the speediness with which it worked (this was my first time at seeing Safari on a Windows machine, since I'm an all-Mac person), and my friend will probably begin using it rather than IE for her browser.

Clever marketing on Apple's part, because in many situations the Windows user trying out Safari and being impressed with it will then be led to the next logical conclusion that, gee, if this browser is so great and works so well, probably the Mac OS does, too.....and they'll be headed to the Apple store or to the Apple website next time they're in the market for a new computer.

In my friend's case she already is leaning towards replacing her current PC with a new Mac so it will be most useful for her to in the meantime play around with Safari, see how that works.

 

[NAG]

It all comes down to this:

People are running a program called "Apple Software Update" on the intention to update their apple software (iTunes, QuickTime), NOT on the intention of getting a new browser.

Actually, Apple Software Update isn't an choice. It is installed when you install Apple software. Again, you're quibbling over semantics. No one actively goes out to install the software updater so that makes the semantics debate even more silly. You'd still be having this problem with Apple if it was named Apple Fun Happy Time App. If the name of the app is your only problem with this then I suggest you send apple a suggestion and not turn it into a holy browser war.

As simple as that. Call them stupid or not, but the majority of people DONT look at what their updating, especially when its a company like Apple, or Microsoft, which they probably trust. Its not the same as willfully installing a virus, unless the virus was coming from an updater program with Apple's name.

Hm, lets look at who called the windows users stupid. Ah, it was the people claiming they had to defend the windows users. I was only continuing with their naming convention. They labeled a majority of windows users as stupid and needing defending. I was only addressing that argument. I could go back and put quotes around "stupid" if you like, since apparently you are only here to argument semantics and not real issues.

And honestly, it would be nice if you stopped trying to play it both ways. You say the windows users are too silly and need to be protected by you but no...you'd never put them down. You'd never make them feel bad. You'd never perpetuate the myth that they're completely dependent on some arbitrary people for their computer using needs.

So yes, it is as simple as some self righteous people doing the exact opposite of what they profess, empowering the computer user.

If they feel that's the only way they can compete in the browser market, then thats pitiful. Firefox has about 30% market share and all those installs were WILLINGLY, as in people went to mozilla.com and downloaded firefox.

Yes yes, Safari bad Firefox good. All hail Firefox! All hail the browser of infinite wisdom and truth!

Really, this isn't relevant to the issue unless you're admitting that your real problem with this is that it provides competition to Firefox. That Firefox has a real competitor when it comes to standards and they can't just kick the dead horse of Internet Explorer when it comes to standards compliancy and security.

Apple is playing dirty with Safari on Windows. Its as simple as that.

Yes, Apple is forcing computer users everywhere to install Safari at the threat of disabling their iPods. You heard it here first.

 

[HLdan]

It all comes down to this:

People are running a program called "Apple Software Update" on the intention to update their apple software (iTunes, QuickTime), NOT on the intention of getting a new browser. As simple as that. Call them stupid or not, but the majority of people DONT look at what their updating, especially when its a company like Apple, or Microsoft, which they probably trust. Its not the same as willfully installing a virus, unless the virus was coming from an updater program with Apple's name.

If they feel that's the only way they can compete in the browser market, then thats pitiful. Firefox has about 30% market share and all those installs were WILLINGLY, as in people went to mozilla.com and downloaded firefox.

Apple is playing dirty with Safari on Windows. Its as simple as that.

Before stating bogus facts do your homework first, Firefox does not have 30% market share. Check it out.

 

[Tosser]

Before stating bogus facts do your homework first, Firefox does not have 30% market share. Check it out.

Thanks for posting that, Dan. It was much needed in this discussion.

 

[SFC Archer]

Actually, Apple Software Update isn't an choice. It is installed when you install Apple software. Again, you're quibbling over semantics. No one actively goes out to install the software updater so that makes the semantics debate even more silly.

EXACTLY...It ISN'T a choice, the EXACT same thing that Microsoft does with your Mac version of Office...Semantics? Which is why some users are having issues. I DONT care if the stupid Safari updater is in your "semantics" software updater. What I and many users have an issue with is IT IS CHECKED for INSTALL and everytime a machince is turned on THE UPDATER ACTIVATES...who gives a CRAP about your favorite friggin word!!! My fix...I uninstalled the Software Update so that I don't have to be bothered by none of it at all...Dang, I guess I just aint a fanboy and totally despise POPUPS from APPLE!

Hm, lets look at who called the windows users stupid. Ah, it was the people claiming they had to defend the windows users. I was only continuing with their naming convention. They labeled a majority of windows users as stupid and needing defending. I was only addressing that argument. I could go back and put quotes around "stupid" if you like, since apparently you are only here to argument semantics and not real issues..

The only "stupid" users here are not windows or mac users. Its those that can't get over themselves and continously argue the same thing over and over and over again. The deffinition of insanity is "Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results" I ain't stupid and I use and love my PC...You aren't stupid and fanatically love your Mac....SO FRIGGIN WHAT! Sitting here cutting each other down over what friggin machine we use is "STUPID and POINTLESS"...and this reply is not just directed at you, but everyone posting here that keeps saying this idiotic crap.

So yes, it is as simple as some self righteous people doing the exact opposite of what they profess, empowering the computer user..

...and your not? You seem to be getting pretty "self righteous" about your statements, so does that make everyone else wrong? Do you have a PC, right here and now and dealing with this issue? Can you say that just because you have your beliefs, that all others are wrong and that they see this as a possible daily intrusion when a system is started? For the "majority" of the software I have installed on my PC, the "OPTIONS" are just that "OPTIONS" and I "MUST CHECK THE BOX" to install it, not the other way around.

Yes yes, Safari bad Firefox good. All hail Firefox! All hail the browser of infinite wisdom and truth!.

Again, you are assuming and making choices for everyone else. I prefer Firefox, you prefer Safari. I hate I.E. as some do, but IAW the graph above...66% of users still use it while less then 2% use Safari and 15%+ use Firefox. After all said and done, I don't mind that Apple informs me that it has a version of Safari that will work on a PC...Great! BUT DONT FRIGGIN force me with a POP UP UPDATER to ignore/install everytime I start my machine! When updater runs to update my iTunes/Quicktime and I see Safari there, then LET ME make the CHOICE to select the install. How's that for "semantics"!

Yes, Apple is forcing computer users everywhere to install Safari at the threat of disabling their iPods. You heard it here first.

...and there in lies the issue! This is what Windows used to do and I never expected Apple to go there and they shouldn't have to. You force me which browser to use and I will uninstall every Apple product I have on my PC as will many many others. Let me know that something is available for me to try...not a problem, super. I have adapted to and use iTunes daily, it replaced my old media player (Music Match) which was just as screwed up as iTunes. I love my iPhone and what Apple has done with it, I love my iPod and what it has the capabilties of doing. I use the iTunes store to purchase everything and the availability of podcasts, audio books and all the other media in one convienant location. I also love my PC and the ability to game and do all the other things that I got a computer for. However, I will NOT be forced to change anything and THAT is what this 200+ thread is ALL about. Its not about YOU, or WHO is smarter then the other, or WHICH PC is better then the other...its about CHOICE and what is the RIGHT WAY to offer that choice. Take the check mark OFF the Safari install and the command that makes updater POP up everytime my machine starts and this thread becomes mute.

Open your minds HLdan and NAG, you dont have to ALWAYS be right and saying the same thing over and over and over is TOTAL INSANITY because we are not going to change what we see as a wrong way to do what could be done right! I actually agree with Tosser this time and a month ago we were at odds over something similiar.

 

[Syrus28]

Before stating bogus facts do your homework first, Firefox does not have 30% market share. Check it out.

Yes, ok. Whatever. That does not change my point. Also, why is Google Desktop included in that?

Actually, Apple Software Update isn't an choice. It is installed when you install Apple software. Again, you're quibbling over semantics. No one actively goes out to install the software updater so that makes the semantics debate even more silly. You'd still be having this problem with Apple if it was named Apple Fun Happy Time App. If the name of the app is your only problem with this then I suggest you send apple a suggestion and not turn it into a holy browser war.

Im confused if your responding to me. I didn't Apple Software Update is a choice.

Hm, lets look at who called the windows users stupid. Ah, it was the people claiming they had to defend the windows users. I was only continuing with their naming convention. They labeled a majority of windows users as stupid and needing defending. I was only addressing that argument. I could go back and put quotes around "stupid" if you like, since apparently you are only here to argument semantics and not real issues.

Again, are you responding to me? I said call them stupid or not, which means "whatever the name", I am dismissing the name debate, not encouraging it.

And honestly, it would be nice if you stopped trying to play it both ways. You say the windows users are too silly and need to be protected by you but no...you'd never put them down. You'd never make them feel bad. You'd never perpetuate the myth that they're completely dependent on some arbitrary people for their computer using needs.

Umm... This is the 1st time I posted in this thread. You are confused, my friend.

Really, this isn't relevant to the issue unless you're admitting that your real problem with this is that it provides competition to Firefox. That Firefox has a real competitor when it comes to standards and they can't just kick the dead horse of Internet Explorer when it comes to standards compliancy and security.

Im admitting that the problem is that Apple snuck Safari into a program called "Apple Software Update", a program associated with "upgrading" not installing new software. What if Microsoft snuck IE7 into Macs in an update for Microsoft Office? If people check the box or not, it would have been a massive uproar. (more so than this one) Is it not the same?

 

[Adokimus]

Is there any way to PERMANENTLY STOP the update window from asking me to download safari? It keeps coming up and all I can do is hit "quit." I'm getting sick of it.

 

[NAG]

Wow not only did you miss the ignore function in the updater but you also missed us talking about it several times in this thread. Thank you for illustrating exactly why telling people they need to be coddled by their mozilla overlords and be enraged over something instead of looking for a solution is the wrong thing to he doing. Couldn't have shown a better example.

See, instead of just having a bunch of blogs with outrage and bile they could have brought up the suggestion such as "give the users a more visible option to not be prompted for new software installs" along with a way to have the app ignore safari. But nope, being angry is just so much more fun!

Anyway, to answer the question there is an ignore update function in the update menu (I believe that is the name of the menu, don't have the windows counterpart infront of me).

And regarding the "no you're self righteous" come back. How about you actually argue the topic here instead of just continually asserting the negative. I've given examples and spelled out my reasons for being against this outrage. Can you counter my reasoning or are you just going to be contrary?

 

[Adokimus]

Wow not only did you miss the ignore function in the updater but you also missed us talking about it several times in this thread. Thank you for illustrating exactly why telling people they need to be coddled by their mozilla overlords and be enraged over something instead of looking for a solution is the wrong thing to he doing. Couldn't have shown a better example.

See, instead of just having a bunch of blogs with outrage and bile they could have brought up the suggestion such as "give the users a more visible option to not be prompted for new software installs" along with a way to have the app ignore safari. But nope, being angry is just so much more fun!

Anyway, to answer the question there is an ignore update function in the update menu (I believe that is the name of the menu, don't have the windows counterpart infront of me).

And regarding the "no you're self righteous" come back. How about you actually argue the topic here instead of just continually asserting the negative. I've given examples and spelled out my reasons for being against this outrage. Can you counter my reasoning or are you just going to be contrary?

I'm sorry, but in my windows counterpart I don't see any "ignore" function just to ignore safari and continue to update iTunes/Quicktime. I'll go back and look through this thread, but I made it 5 pages without an answer and I didn't know there was one. I'll spend more time going through the menus when I get back to my home computer, but a kind point in the right direction would be appreciated.

As for the outrage over this strategy by Apple, please refer to the beginning 5 pages of this thread, as I've already listed my reasons for being upset there.

 

[Adokimus]

EDIT: Found it. Near the bottom of page 5, ironically enough.

It is unfortunate to see so many railing against Apple and not reading anyone else's posts. As I see it, the common complaint is:
"I don't want Safari. Apple's Software update keeps asking if I want to install it. This is annoying! This is spam! Apple = Microsoft! yada yada yada..."
Well if you would read some others' posts you would have found your answer, because Software Update for Windows has the same functionality as the Mac version. I know the complainers will probably not read my post either, but I'll walk you through it anyway:
1. Apple Software Update pops up. It says "New Software is available..."
2. Since you know you really do not want Safari, you want to click on the 'Safari' entry in the list to highlight it.
3. At the top of the Software Update window you will see the 'Tools' menu item. Click this and select 'Ignore Selected Updates.'
Ta Da! No more notifications to install Safari! Now was that really that difficult?
Of course some will argue that the "average Windows user" is not going to know to do that. This is true, but then again I prefer it that way. I am an IT professional and if everyone knew everything I did I would be out of a job!

 

[NAG]

FYI: I told you exactly where to find the ignore update feature in my post. Here is the quote again since you missed it:

Anyway, to answer the question there is an ignore update function in the update menu (I believe that is the name of the menu, don't have the windows counterpart infront of me).

See, there is just so much outrage over this issue and none of the people continuing the outrage toward Apple are doing anything to try to solve the issue. They're just perpetuating this outrage for no real reason. If they really cared about the user they'd be doing more to help rather than just tell them to be outraged. Thank you again for illustrating how this outrage is completely not helpful.

 

[SFC Archer]

Wow not only did you miss the ignore function in the updater but you also missed us talking about it several times in this thread. Thank you for illustrating exactly why telling people they need to be coddled by their mozilla overlords and be enraged over something instead of looking for a solution is the wrong thing to he doing. Couldn't have shown a better example.

Actually, I "CHOOSE" what I felt best looonnnng before you made your malicious post. I shouldnt, nor should anyone else HAVE to choose anything...a point I already made! Again...just to keep it simple for your fanatical focus...I DO NOT mind if Apple wants to let me know that there is a Windows Version of Safari, what I and "most" of the other 279 negative to 185 positive users state is...APPLE DID IT WRONG, When they NORMALY do it right! PC and MAC users want the CHOICE to decided weather we want Safari installed, not automatic popup that a new "update" is ready to install and an automatically check marked install. Just like iPhone users want the "CHOICE" to use or not use flash, or GPS or MMS on the iPhone and that there should be an option to turn on or off. Just like users want the "CHOICE" of which network they use their iPhone on. Can you understand that?

Again, I gave credit to both Safari/Firefox (mozilla as you put it)...YOU are the one making it a big deal and an argument. YOU are the one that is enraged and getting all defensive. I am just pointing out that its this PC .vs MAC thing that has YOU and those like you acting all STUPID and Defensive because we won't convert to the "apple" (mac, safari) way. The majority of us are Americans that still believe in the right to "CHOOSE" what and how we want things to work...we are not so stuck in believing that one way and only one way is right....OPEN YOUR MIND Luke (Nag)...your living up to your name!

See, instead of just having a bunch of blogs with outrage and bile they could have brought up the suggestion such as "give the users a more visible option to not be prompted for new software installs" along with a way to have the app ignore safari. But nope, being angry is just so much more fun!

I think you finally said something that makes sense and what I and other have been trying to tell you the whole time. I guess you are just upset in life and you can only entertain yourself be being angry because "its just so much more fun".

Anyway, to answer the question there is an ignore update function in the update menu (I believe that is the name of the menu, don't have the windows counterpart infront of me).

We know already...it is NOT the friggin point! The point is....Users DO NOT appreciate a POP UP telling them about an update that is not an update but a already selected install. This is the POINT. And...just to cut off the upcoming comment you will repeat again...WE SHOULDNT HAVE TO GO IN AND SELECT IGNORE!

And regarding the "no you're self righteous" come back. How about you actually argue the topic here instead of just continually asserting the negative. I've given examples and spelled out my reasons for being against this outrage. Can you counter my reasoning or are you just going to be contrary?

Sorry to burst your self righteous bubble, but I am not arguing with you...just trying to educate you that you are not always right and that you are currently so tunnel visioned that you cannot see why the "majority" are upset at a move apple took that most believed they would not do. I am also quite positive in being on the side of BOTH platform users and the use of ALL products/software. The "outrage" if you want to call it that, is seeing that Apple is actually going where most had hopped they wouldn't and that is taking the "Choice" away from users and turning into another MS...both companies are wrong when it comes to forcing users to use prescribed software. You have given zero reasons, you have zero understanding and you will never open your mind nor understand that Apple can sometimes be wrong just as much as Microsoft has been and that users want CHOICE! I think that "most" on this thread will agree with me when I say that it is YOU that is being contrary and that I have quite successfully stated my reasons without insulting or belittling either side of the platform dissintion.

P.S. Thanks for completely avoiding and asking my questions that I posed for you...great support of your argument.

 

[djellison]

solve the issue.

You concede it is an issue then. It wouldn't be one if Apple had not put a new application ticked to install, by default, in a utility to update iTunes and Quicktime. The root cause of this issue is Apple's decision to push Safari in an inappropriate way.

Doug

 

[Adokimus]

FYI: I told you exactly where to find the ignore update feature in my post. Here is the quote again since you missed it:

Anyway, to answer the question there is an ignore update function in the update menu (I believe that is the name of the menu, don't have the windows counterpart infront of me).

See, there is just so much outrage over this issue and none of the people continuing the outrage toward Apple are doing anything to try to solve the issue. They're just perpetuating this outrage for no real reason. If they really cared about the user they'd be doing more to help rather than just tell them to be outraged. Thank you again for illustrating how this outrage is completely not helpful.

1. You did not tell me exactly where to find the ignore update feature. You barely even told me generally where to find it.
2. I consider the issue resolved for now, but I am still upset with this business practice on Apple's part.

For the record, I was actually planning on trying out Safari for windows soon, but now I will not. I will also be choosing firefox for web browsing in OS X, which I hadn't even considered before. I'm sure that the general consumer didn't have the same reaction to this "automatic update" that I did, so this was probably a beneficial move by Apple, but that doesn't make it right.

-Ado

 

[Syrus28]

@Nag
I don't know what your problem is, but tell me this: If Microsoft were to include IE7 in a update as default for Microsoft Office '08 , even if there was an option to opt-out, would you have a problem? They would be using their leverage as the #1 Mac software seller (besides Apple) to increase their browser market share.

People always talk about Microsoft using their leverage to push out the competition.

Apple is using its iTunes and QuickTime installed base to creep in Safari onto their PC's. What is the difference?

I truly don't care how well you like Firefox or IE7, the fact is that it IS possible to gather a significant market share by people choosing their product willingly. However, that is not to say that all of the people who installed Safari did it by accident, but I think its safe to say that the majority did.

Never should an entirely new program be included in a Update Program as the default. The fact that I have to opt-out of something the majority do not want is annoying. And the fact is, its nothing more than annoying. But its still wrong.

 

[cal6n]

*snip*

For the record, I was actually planning on trying out Safari for windows soon, but now I will not.

*snip*

Your loss, no one else's...

*snip*

I will also be choosing firefox for web browsing in OS X, which I hadn't even considered before.

*snip*

ditto...

 

[NAG]

1. You did not tell me exactly where to find the ignore update feature. You barely even told me generally where to find it.
2. I consider the issue resolved for now, but I am still upset with this business practice on Apple's part.

For the record, I was actually planning on trying out Safari for windows soon, but now I will not. I will also be choosing firefox for web browsing in OS X, which I hadn't even considered before. I'm sure that the general consumer didn't have the same reaction to this "automatic update" that I did, so this was probably a beneficial move by Apple, but that doesn't make it right.

-Ado

How much more clear can you be than update menu, ignore update? That is word for word the menu and menu item. There is no shame in missing something in a big thread.

Oh, and thank you djellison for taking my words out of context. Here I was talking about productive things that could be done instead of ranting about the evils of Apple and how Mozilla will save us all and you turned that into conceding that you're right about ranting being a great thing to do. Nice spin there.

Seriously, why is everyone throwing around insane rationalizations over their persistence to call Apple evil yet do absolutely nothing to solve the issue. All you're doing is just contributing to hysteria. Is that what you want? A fearful user-base? Do you want people so afraid of everything on their computer that they are forced to listen to you rather than make intelligent decisions for themselves?

Here is what should have happened. Okay, Apple releases Safari via Apple Software Update. Some people take objection to the potential confusion that may arise. Suggestions are offered. For instance, the omnigroup uses an updater that is remarkably similar looking to Apple's software update yet it includes tags near the update to tell you if it is new or if it will cost you money (in the case of the Omnigroup since they sell their apps). This would of course be in addition to explaining people how they can have the updater ignore Safari (which is an easy 3 step instruction).

Wouldn't that have been the more productive way to handle this?

But I guess if you want to continue to rant and rave and call me delusional for daring to insult your web browser of choice, feel free. Just don't wonder why the press always gets computers wrong or why people always seem so unable to do things with their computer without constant hand holding. Because wondering assumes that you aren't part of the problem.

PS: This has and always has been my point in this thread. If you go back and read all my posts in this you'll see that I have been squarely focused on the hysteria of the bloggers and how they're being completely nonhelpful.

@Nag
I don't know what your problem is, but tell me this: If Microsoft were to include IE7 in a update as default for Microsoft Office '08 , even if there was an option to opt-out, would you have a problem?

Interesting problem. It is weird that I missed talking about that issue...

How is this forcing down the users throat? It asks. Since when is asking forcing? If Office asked me if I wanted to install Silverlight and told me what it was would I get angry? No. If Office just installed it and didn't tell me they were installing blah blah blah then sure, I'd be annoyed. That didn't happen here with Safari though (nor with silverlight).

There is a remarkable lack of distinction going on here. People can't seem to tell the difference between an app asking you if you want something installed along with a description of what it is and an app just being magically installed without your knowledge. This ignores the kind of behavior that got Microsoft in trouble (that behavior being forcing manufactures to include certain software or get a penalty when it came to buying Windows or Internet Explorer disabling competing browsers or them threatening Apple over Quicktime for windows with the availability of Office for mac).

Oh hey, I already did address that issue.

 

[BongoBanger]

Err... since when was installing a completely new browser an upgrade? Isn't it... well... adding a new program?

Apple have a history of this nonsense but then what would you expect of a profit orientated company that doesn't give a toss about its userbase?

 

[NAG]

I was hoping we'd be beyond the semantics arguement by now. Is that seriously your only arguement here?

 

[BongoBanger]

I'm not arguing because honestly it's not that big a deal. Apple do have a history of this kind of thing though, that's beyond dispute.

 

[t22design]

Before stating bogus facts do your homework first, Firefox does not have 30% market share. Check it out.

Bah...you can find statistics to support anything nowadays.

From http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

 

[anotherNitwit]

Thanks for those...

w3c statistics. I believe those are considered the industry standard.

I wonder who will win for "Most Uninstalled Browser" for March? I bet I know.

"Uninstall(ed)?" Who talks like that in the real world anyway?

"Today I deselected a preselected uninstall of a bag of anvils. Then I fed my albatrosses. I am very intuitive and ergonomic in these matters. Just ask me, then again, do not unask me, but I'll waste you time anyway. So long as it benefits me, its OK. You are probably to stupid to improve your lot on your own anyway."

 

[gikku]

Administrator rights

Which part of "New software is available..." do you not understand?


Unfortunately installing iTunes/Quicktime/Safari on a Windoze box requires Administrator rights. boo hiss.
That rules out all those millions of locked down corporate PCs, including this one.

yes. I know, security, but really....


(BTW, FF doesn't require admin access.)