I don't remember windows update trying to install Office for me. Again, using the 'Microsoft do it, so what's wrong with Apple doing it' argument is a very very bad place to go imho. Why not go all the way and just switch to a PC?
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Apple Distributing Safari for Windows via iTunes
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I don't remember windows update trying to install Office for me. Again, using the 'Microsoft do it, so what's wrong with Apple doing it' argument is a very very bad place to go imho. Why not go all the way and just switch to a PC?
Right, but for wrong reasons. Why give yourself bad press as a company by contributing to that?
Once again, just as you assumed that there was a trial version of Mac Office 2008 you are speaking again before checking your facts. If this dialog box doesn't speak for itself then the user is STUPID. You said most Windows users don't even realize what Safari is? The dialog box explains exactly what it is and if the user fails to read it and still hits install and gets pissed at Apple after the fact then they are STUPID. Stop making excuses for the Windows crowd as if they are poor victims.
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QFT. As I said earlier, if you're a Windows user, and you don't read the descriptions of software before you install it, you deserve to get a virus. I read everything in software update before I install it. A Windows user needs to be careful.
Stop quoting another sheepie and suddenly deem what he said as truth just because his opinion happens to be aligned with yours. Let's put it this way. We have less than ethical companies out there who push software unsuspectingly on end users. Does Apple have to go down this road?
Just answer that question, yes or no. It is that simple.
Saying how users have a "choice" to untick the box is no different from saying you have a "choice" not to respond to emails offering those "free" v14gr4 pills that come with $19.95 shipping.
This fine was based on competition law: Microsoft used their dominating position in the market for operating systems to distribute another product - Media Player.
If Apple had a dominating position, they'd be in even more trouble for including iTunes and Quicktime with MacOS X.
What Microsoft did do, however, is to push some "Genuine Advantage" tool with Windows Update.
Malware standard excuse #1: It is not malware.
Malware standard excuse #2: We did mention it in the fine print.
Malware standard excuse #1: It is not malware.
Malware standard excuse #4: We are doing the users a favour.I say they are doing PC users a favor
Malware standard excuse #3: The user did have a choice.
People might think that this is required by iTunes since it is the only Apple program they have installed and because the whole thing is called "update" (2x vs. "new" 1x).
Even if they know what Safari is and know what a browser is, how is it a good thing if Apple sends them SPAM? So, you and Apple think Safari is the best browser? You think it is a good thing to let everyone know? I agree with Apogee. Pretty much every company thinks that their products are great. I certainly don't want annoying pop-up ads for every little toy-app I've installed telling me about other great products.
iTunes doesn't get updated that much, and is Apple improving their software *really* a bad thing?
No, but they need it to get security updates for iTunes. Its essentially part of the program.
The Apple Software update makes it pretty clear what is going on. It could be improved further. However if the user is too stupid to be able to read the Apple software update dialog then they are too stupid to be using the internet at all. Also if they don't check through what they are installing on their PC how do they make sure they don't install malware? Also in the outside world how do they go about through their life without being completely ripped off at every turn?
Well, something certainl is wrong, because that is not standard behaviour. Not at all. I even tried switching default browsers while mail.app was open and it now opened links in the new default browser. Anyway the "repair permisssions" was a suggestion. Of course there can be something else wrong. How many hax and plugins do you guys have?
Personally I tried it after it was popped up, it was removed shortly after. It was so slow on my system (dual core vista ultimate 64bit with sp1) it was worse than ie7, so I'd love to know where exactly they got their fastest browser bit from.
Combined with another font rendering/smoothing engine/approach really didn't do it any favours in my opinion.
So suffice to say I won't be using it on windows. When firefox 3 is finally out of beta I will be going back to that, until then ie7 (with a few add-ons) will do me fine.
And I have to say apple is starting to 'bundle' a lot of unwanted apps with itunes without any option of deselecting unwanted or not needed parts - I do not have an iphone (doubt I ever will until its atleast 3G) yet I still get forced to have the software that is used to detect/connect to it. I go and uninstall it via control panel and next time I get an update on itunes I have to start the process again as its been installed again, Apple give me a damn tick box at install so it doesn't get installed!!
Combined with another font rendering/smoothing engine/approach really didn't do it any favours in my opinion.
So suffice to say I won't be using it on windows. When firefox 3 is finally out of beta I will be going back to that, until then ie7 (with a few add-ons) will do me fine.
And I have to say apple is starting to 'bundle' a lot of unwanted apps with itunes without any option of deselecting unwanted or not needed parts - I do not have an iphone (doubt I ever will until its atleast 3G) yet I still get forced to have the software that is used to detect/connect to it. I go and uninstall it via control panel and next time I get an update on itunes I have to start the process again as its been installed again, Apple give me a damn tick box at install so it doesn't get installed!!
And Apple is abusing its dominant position in media players (face it, if you have an iPod, chances are you're using iTunes) to distribute an unrelated product - their web browser. The rationale behind the competition law is to provide a level playing field. Safari should compete on its own merits, not ride the coattails of iPod/iTunes.
Yeah, they caught a lot of flak for that because the WGA tool was not an update, so it has no business in Windows Update. Likewise, if you didn't already have Safari installed, it's not an update, so it should not be in Apple Sofware Update.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The user DOES have a choice. They can uncheck the box. They can read through the information about Safari, and if they don't want it, they uncheck the box, and tell Software Update to ignore Safari.
I don't understand why this is so hard for people. They're acting like th average Windows user is a complete idiot (I guess they are, or they'd use a Mac, but that's beside the point). The user has a choice, and can read the little description, which makes it completely obvious what Safari is.
Why? Why should the user have to do that? Apple is stealing peoples time by that argument. They ASSSUME people want it and ask them to waste their time by rescinding that assumption.
If people wanted Safari, they would go and get it.
Software should be opt in, not opt out.
Doug
Won't you agree with me that Safari is more secure and faster and better than IE in every way? People don't even realize that Safari exists on Windows, or they would download it. I would assume people want it, because there is really no reason for Windows users to continue to use IE.
Safari for Mac, yes. For Windows, no. Even with 3.1 Safari is still unusable for everyday use. I don't think most Mac users realize how shoddy Apple software is on the Windows platform.
ERr - I disagree with almost every single point made here.
Secure? http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/03/2049205&from=rss No.
Faster? Personally, my experience of Firefox vs Safari, no - Safari is slower, significantly so - especially when viewing pages with Flash, or loading multiple tabs at once.
Better? Depends on tasted. Is Safari better than IE? Probably. In EVERY way? No.
The arrogance to assume that if people knew about Safari they would all want it beggars belief. I know about it, and I don't want it. ( so the assertion that if people realized it existed they would download it is false ) I use it every single day on my MBP, and I don't want it installed on my desktop PC at home having tested it at work. Not interested. Firefox is all the browser I need on my PC.
And, as I stated previously, if Safari was the very best browser on the PC platform ( which I don't think it is ), and cured the common cold - that doesn't give Apple the right to presume people want to install it. Having to go through a process of opting OUT of software you've not asked for is just acceptable. The negativity here and elsewhere is evidence enough of that.
Okay, your first line again calls the user STUPID. Again the dialog box reads explicitly what Safari is and what it does. Could it be anymore clear that it's not part of iTunes?
My answer to your last line is "Don't Buy a PC" if you want to avoid annoying pop-ups. Stop making a mountain out a molehill. You're just coming back with a lot of excuses because you know your arguments have no defense.
Accept the inevitable
All you PC lovers out there, you can argue all you want about what's fair or not regarding Apple's tactics but fact of the matter is this situation is not up for argument because it's already here and Apple's not going to take it away so just accept it.
At the end of the day Apple is a business and not your buddy that needs to play nicey to make their friends like them better.
All you PC lovers out there, you can argue all you want about what's fair or not regarding Apple's tactics but fact of the matter is this situation is not up for argument because it's already here and Apple's not going to take it away so just accept it.
At the end of the day Apple is a business and not your buddy that needs to play nicey to make their friends like them better.
First of all, I'm glad Apple is offering Safari to Windows users. The more Safari users (and Firefox users, for that matter), the better.
However, as I and many other people had said before, Apple should have placed a disclaimer in the Safari description (new software!) and deselected the install by default.
However, as I and many other people had said before, Apple should have placed a disclaimer in the Safari description (new software!) and deselected the install by default.
I personally didn't notice the option to disable the installation of Safari. I wasn't really looking that hard, but I assume that's how Apple wants it.
Also, I just realized after installing the update that I can now use my windows media center remote in itunes, very good idea Apple!
Also, I just realized after installing the update that I can now use my windows media center remote in itunes, very good idea Apple!
All you PC lovers out there, you can argue all you want about what's fair or not regarding Apple's tactics but fact of the matter is this situation is not up for argument because it's already here and Apple's not going to take it away so just accept it.
Sheesh! How's that for flawed logic
Name any other company where that does not adhere to. Further, it would also adhere to Microsoft and any other company that has been ruled to misuse of their status. Not to mention any company that screws their customers over. Hell, it would even adhere to people writing malware and the sorts.
Do you not realise how utterly ignorant your argument is?
All you PC lovers out there, you can argue all you want about what's fair or not regarding Apple's tactics but fact of the matter is this situation is not up for argument because it's already here and Apple's not going to take it away so just accept it.
At the end of the day Apple is a business and not your buddy that needs to play nicey to make their friends like them better.
Apple needs to thread carefully, because they're one of the most watched tech companies around. Reputation and trust are easy to lose and hard to rebuild. Just look at Real. They're recent software is actually pretty decent (the Mac version is actually very lightweight and unobtrusive), but the bad reputation from their darker years is still haunting them today.
Naturally you wouldn't get what I was saying.
Firstly I fail to see where Apple has (in your words) screwed their customers over. My point was it's business and some of these forum members (yourself included) seem to know nothing about business. People here seem to want Apple to sit back and be nice and offer Safari for Windows somewhere on their website for download but not put it in their face. Safari will never gain marketshare that way.
I mentioned this before in sales you don't wait for the customer to walk up to you and ask to buy something, you have to go after the customer and although there are some lacking in morals regarding sales you have to be aggressive or you can kiss the sale goodbye.
This argument is only coming from the Windows users on this forum but there are also the same people saying, "I hate Safari, it doesn't belong on Windows" so do you think they would electively surf to Apple's website to download and try Safari, no.
These are also the same people who tout the same tired argument that Macs have 3% marketshare and the nearly the whole world uses Windows.
Knowing this how would you expect Apple to grow marketshare? They need to be aggressive in marketing.
My earlier point also was the software update which now includes Safari as an offering is here to stay and you can argue all you want to but Apple is not going to change that. Successful businesses do listen to their customers but there are not going to be bullied by them, that's why Microsoft is so successful.
If this is too much problem for you, you can simply get rid of your iPod (I'm speaking in terms of all the Windows complainers, not just you) remove iTunes and Quicktime and get a Zune or any other MP3 player that supports Windows and there are several choices. This way you won't have to be graced or bothered with Apple's sales tactics.
I would hardly compare Apple to Real. Apple is now a household name and by far the most popular and largest multimedia company. They are not skating on thin ice nor are they trying to get their name out there. Apple, like Microsoft doesn't have to be careful or they will lose customers. Windows users have had choices and still do and the majority chose to buy an iPod. A lot of people are switching to the Macintosh while there are several computing choices so don't think for one minute that Apple is treading on thin ice like Real.
Ever heard of taking risks? Good business is about taking risks otherwise you will remain the underdog and finish last like the rest of the nice guys. (Real).
Oh, I certainly got what you said. That is why I can say your logic is extremely flawed.Naturally you wouldn't get what I was saying.
I know it's hard for a person who is such a big fan of everything Apple does, a person who can see no fault with their business practices, no matter what is, to see these things. Check out not only these forums, but also stories about their non-us customer "service", the crippling of their products and them running from promised features.
What are you? The Floor Manager at McDonald's? If anything, you trying to come off as someone who knows anything about even the basics is quite laughable. Especially when you try putting others down on this front, while not having even the basic clue yourself. But more about that a little further down.
Yes, and rightfully so. It's the difference between using the Software Update as a means to advertise for another product, and trying to trick people into installing something they might not want.
Tough luck. According to you, the ends justify the means. Any means. That alone is flawed logic. Besides, as I explained to you earlier (something you utterly missed), your argument can be used for anything, thus making it invalid. The very same argument could be used to force-install anything just by going to a website. Intrusive, you say? Not at all, this programme, let's call it "qwerty - the keylogger" would not be widespread and gain marketshare otherwise.
Just because you mentioned it before, doesn't mean it's true, or that your logic weren't flawed there too. As a sales rep you shouldn't try to trick the customer into using something they don't need, and especially not something they don't want.
First of all, I'm typing this on a MBP 2.33, running OS X, not windows.
Secondly, you cannot dismiss anything based on the merit "these are windows users complaining". Yes, of course it's windows users complaining the most. Who the **** do you think Apple is going after with this "update"? Are you freaking kidding me?
So your argument is, that these people should be forced or tricked into installing something because they choose to avoid Apple as much as possible? And you wonder why I called your argument "flawed logic"?
So? What's your point? Do you actually think this is in any way is related?
It's not just "agressive marketing", it's malware-practices. Besides, do you really think that it doesn't matter how a company is pushing a product in the long run? Trust me, the way they handle things on the windows-site matters even to Apple-users in the long run.
If your argument wasn't so flawed, this _could_ be true. But since your argument is based on the premis, that when a decision is made public, it cannot be changed, how do you explain the change of the iTunes Ministore? Oops, Dan. There was able trying to force the Ministore down people's throat by default, but people complaining about these bad business practices made Apple hide it by default. I wonder how that fact makes you look, when trying to pretend you know much more than the people here about "business".
LOL, so now we're "bullying" Apple? You really should look up "argumentation 101".
Trust me, I don't have an iPod anymore. I grew tired of the sub-par quality, the mediocre sound quality and Apple Europe's customer services and business practices. Not to mention I dislike crippled hardware.
Ahh, do I smell a somewhat personally offended guy?
First of all, I'm a mac user, so getting rid of quicktime would be kind of hard.
Secondly, I don't have any problems with the quality of quicktime (or iTunes, for that matter).
But what strikes me here, is that in your first part of your argument, you think it's okay to trick people into installing software they don't want, yet, in the second part here you ask people that dislike this practice to uninstall everything that smells of Apple.
Can you come up with any more ludicrously logical fallacies?
Hmm, I think, YOU think YOU know more than anyone else. I have fresh install of Windows XP on VMware Fusion and I just downloaded and installed iTunes and low and behold what do I see? The iTunes mini store turned on by default. Get your facts straight.