Apple Diversifies Chip Orders for iOS Device and Apple Watch Amid Predictions of ARM Macs

[oldmacs]

I can agree with that, yes.
But two thoughts on that: First, people could have made the argument that using an Intel mobil chip in re ARM would make moving apps to the iDevices simpler. That is a moot point now. And second, The transition to Intel was really not that bad, was it? Granted, im not a programmer... but i think the many people were surprised that it was as smooth as it was.

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You lost me the moment you said "No Real Reason"... If you can't recognize some of the reasons/benefits for the switch, then any discussion wouldn't really merit the time.

There is no real benefit to switching! The Intel transition was a headache, but it achieved things, such as better performance, battery life, windows compatibility, better product pipeline etc. Intel is the reason why so many people have moved to the Mac.

ARM chips are not powerful enough, and my understanding is that chucking a heap of ARM processors together to make one more powerful means that power consumption goes up rapidly, and you loose that advantage (of Power consumption). Staying with Intel might mean Apple needs to wait longer on occasion (Broadwell delays) but thats a price to pay for a superior, more compatible chip. Apple in the past hasn't even shown interest in rapid adoption of intel chips. The C2D remained standard for wayyyy too long.

 

[jont-fu]

Then what about hardware? Will it be limited to iPad Pros (maybe aka Macbook 12 inch?). There is no Chrome desktop, isn't it? So Mac mini with iOS is out of question to not confuse users. Therefore, its a line of powerful, content creation oriented iPad pros (12 inch iPadbooks). With abundance of native software it is a far bigger ecosystem than anything Chromebook or Windows RT.

You might be onto something.. There have been separate rumors of a 12" iPad Pro and a 12" Macbook Air. But could it really be just one device? It makes much sense actually.

Many people are using their iPad with a separate keyboard and are longing for an integrated solution, maybe with a bigger display. Apple is known for its great keyboards and trackpads so why not take advantage of that?

 

[wetcanvas]

arm computer will end up being like a windows rt system. Im sure they will sell but in my opinion its something that has no future. If apple switches to arm then I will leave apple. I used to like the direction apple was going but they keep doing things I dont like. Other companies like microsoft seem to be innovating and moving on while apple holds on for dear life to their ipads. I dont believe ipads to be the be all end all of devices and im simply tired of apple trying to force ios into being something it can never be. I want a real osx tablet device not an ipad.

 

[scoobydoo99]

Sounds like today's Apple:

Our vision for the future is that we aspire to have Macs with performance just a little worse than i3.

But at least we can control our release dates! yay.

 

[Michael Goff]

The A8X blows both of those chips out of the water.....please.

If you're going to complain, at least be somewhat factual in your complaint.

No, it really doesn't.

 

[JoEw]

If Apple just needs a cheaper, limited function, laptop (e.g, chromebook competitor ) they can just throw the guts of a iPad into a iPad variant with a keyboard attached. Something like the 360 display hinge, touch screen Windows convertibles that are out there now sprinkled with some Apple design pixie dust.

That seems to be the major refrain about why Apple needs to go to ARM. Cheaper Macs. iOS devices generally already have the "cheaper" angle covered. Some minor expansions to iOS ( multiple apps on screen and more mature apps ) and will cover a pretty large set of use cases of simply cheaper general usage workloads.

Many of us need a file system, or write papers, or get things that can't easily be done on a tablet. Some things just are not easier to do on an IOS device.

 

[JonneyGee]

Kuo sucks, just not as much as the rest

This guy has a horrible track record. Why, why, why does MacRumors continue to post his nonsense?

Contrary to what the guy quoting all the rumors would lead us to believe, Kuo's accuracy is only about 40%. Of course, most other analysts come in around 30%, so that's probably why he's credited as being "accurate."

Anyone else wish you could get things right 40% of the time at your job and be an industry leader?

 

[mtneer]

Multiple people on this thread and elsewhere have said that Apple's processors "blow away" what Intel is offering. Are there any real measurable fruit-fruit comparisons of Apple's best (A8X or even the projected A9) versus Intel's best (Core i7 or Xeon/Xeon Phi's).

 

[Michael Scrip]

Contrary to what the guy quoting all the rumors would lead us to believe, Kuo's accuracy is only about 40%. Of course, most other analysts come in around 30%, so that's probably why he's credited as being "accurate."

Anyone else wish you could get things right 40% of the time at your job and be an industry leader?

Yes! I wish I could get paid to guess.

I don't quite understand what these analysts do anyway.

I assume they get paid to give advice... but do they have to give the money back if they're wrong?

 

[gavroche]

There is no real benefit to switching! The Intel transition was a headache, but it achieved things, such as better performance, battery life, windows compatibility, better product pipeline etc. Intel is the reason why so many people have moved to the Mac.

ARM chips are not powerful enough, and my understanding is that chucking a heap of ARM processors together to make one more powerful means that power consumption goes up rapidly, and you loose that advantage (of Power consumption). Staying with Intel might mean Apple needs to wait longer on occasion (Broadwell delays) but thats a price to pay for a superior, more compatible chip. Apple in the past hasn't even shown interest in rapid adoption of intel chips. The C2D remained standard for wayyyy too long.

I respectfully disagree.
I remember the 90's, when there was a lot of action in the chip market. There were huge leaps in performance on a regular basis. This advance has slowed down sooo much. The problem is that for the most part, all of this advancement in computing power is just simply making everything smaller... fitting far more transistors in the same or smaller space. But we are already reaching the limits of what our current technology can realistically do. Intel has to spend a lot of money and time developing chips with much less impressive gains in performance as compared to years gone by. Now it's becoming more about the design.... and making design choices about what best meets your needs.
ARM started out light years beyond Intel. Yet it has been catching up quite amazingly fast. It's easy to gain ground, when you are so far behind. I absolutely think that that gap will continue to close. Where is the money at? How much money is being made out there in the mobil market, versus the computer market? And in the mobil market.... ARM is where its at. Period. A company like Apple will be willing to invest far more money in pushing ARM forward than Intel will be with its chips.... because it will be useful for far more devices. I think both Apple and Microsoft have realized this, and I think both have already been working to make their OS's work on both ARM and Intel. And Apple has another huge reason to want to go ARM. They can control the design of their chips, and customize heavily. A lot of companies out there are using ARM chips. But Apple's are far far better. Why? Because they have customized them. With Intel, Apple cannot do this. They are stuck with whatever Intel gives them. And we spend several years waiting for a chip like Broadwell, hoping it lives up to the hype, and watching it's timeframe get pushed back and back and back.
Why do people have such a fear of change? Why think that for the rest of time no company other than Intel could possibly be a good choice for chips?

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Multiple people on this thread and elsewhere have said that Apple's processors "blow away" what Intel is offering. Are there any real measurable fruit-fruit comparisons of Apple's best (A8X or even the projected A9) versus Intel's best (Core i7 or Xeon/Xeon Phi's).

I have seen no such claim here....?! Well, i saw the one guy said something about it blowing out an older i3 (and he has been thoroughly slapped down!). Maybe i missed something else.
Its not really a fair comparison anyway, since those Intel chips are desktop class, and the current ARM chips are mobile... designed to conserve energy and heat for the most part. What many people, myself included, believe is that future ARM chips will be desktop class power.

 

[Trahearne]

ARM chips are not powerful enough, and my understanding is that chucking a heap of ARM processors together to make one more powerful means that power consumption goes up rapidly, and you loose that advantage (of Power consumption).

Yes and no. It is true that ARM has the low-power tag on it, but the lower power consumption of ARM is because the large volume of ARM-powered chips today is designed for the low power arena. So when ARM scales up to the battlefield of Intel, there is no strong advantage other than performance per watt per dollar after all.

For the NO, there are quite a few high-performance ARM implementation targeting a 2016 launch, e.g. Broadcom Vulcan, AMD K12, etc. So high-performance ARM is not fully a dream. Let's put it simply: If you agree that chips without the leading-edge process technologies still have a value preposition, ARM chips in Mac may not be too bad as you have imagined. It is just like... an AMD chip inside a Mac.

The peak CPU performance could be worse, as Intel is cutting-edge on this matter, but power consumption is not determined by just process technologies but the power management techniques. So it is possible that it is not as powerful as Intel's chip for quite a few margin, but it lasts as long as, or even longer than, Intel's chip and is sufficient for a large bucket of OS X applications. Well, the art of microarchitectures. Let alone that Apple may jump fast into the heterogeneous computing era and take advantage of its vertical integration model.



Having said that, I would still want an Intel Mac unless Apple persuades me with a real chip. Software is another pain in the a-, though Apple may force MAS developers to submit ARMv8 binaries. Non-MAS but popular software, ehm...

 

[StoneJack]

arm computer will end up being like a windows rt system.

I'd like to point out that iPads and iPhones are exactly ARM computers.. limited but very successful because of their focus on mobile computing

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Many of us need a file system, or write papers, or get things that can't easily be done on a tablet. Some things just are not easier to do on an IOS device.

Well, to be honest, you don't need file system to write a paper.. However, true and efficient multitasking ala Mission control is must on iPad to become efficient content creators..

 

[Oletros]

Apple have a much more competitive development market on iOS and an installed user base that is hundreds of millions stronger. Even if a million Windows users boycotted Apple for not letting them run Windows 7 on their Mac hundreds of millions more would praise them for opening up the Mac to the incredibly vast and lucrative iOS development market.

I don't get why the millions of iOS users that don't have a Mac and, probably have a Windows machine would praise the change to an architecture that can't have Windows

 

[StoneJack]

I don't get who the millions of iOS users that don't have a Mac and, probably have a Windows machine would praise the change to an architecture that can't have Windows

Its not about Windows.. you can't install Windows on iPad, can't you? Its just the evolution of iPads into iPad pro's that can be as efficient as normal desktop system. Challenging but why not. If Apple succeeds, then iPads gradually will become Chromebooks and windows notebooks (remember netbooks?) for casual users, and that's a good thing

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You might be onto something.. There have been separate rumors of a 12" iPad Pro and a 12" Macbook Air. But could it really be just one device? It makes much sense actually.

Many people are using their iPad with a separate keyboard and are longing for an integrated solution, maybe with a bigger display. Apple is known for its great keyboards and trackpads so why not take advantage of that?

Fully agree on that. Would be curious to see Apple's offering.

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I like what you are saying. I think it makes sense. The problem (as I see it) with what you're proposing is that there are a LOT of people who ARE confused about what exactly a Chrome book is...and I'm not sure Apple would go for that.

I don't say that to be nit picky and start a war...but I'm genuinely curious. How many normal people know what they are getting when they buy a Chrome book? In my circle of 25-35 year old friends I can confidently say at least 20% would think a Chrome book is a full featured laptop (granted unless they lose wifi they may never figure out that it isn't ).

I just can't see Apple selling a product that isn't a "computer" to people who think it is a "computer." Like you said, nobody is going to confuse an iPad for a MBP...but throw a keyboard and track pad on it...and I'm not so sure anymore. If there was a way to make an absolute distinction between the two - I think you could be on to something. The question is...how? If I bought an iPad and put it in a aluminum ClamCase and went around telling people it was the new Apple laptop...most of them would probably believe me.

All that to say I really do think your on to something. I'm just wondering how that absolute distinction between "iOS device" and "Pro device" (Chrome book vs. Laptop) would be implemented.

P.S. I didn't mean to chop your quote up too much...if I completely missed your point disregard what I said.

Maybe they will market it as a iPad pro? iPads for Creators...There is a campaign by Apple with a similar slogan..

 

[NoneOfYourB]

Bye-bye bootcamp and virtualization. Hello Mac plus separate Windows machine for those that need both. Arm yourselves for the future spin...

This isn't 1990
Microsoft is a Service Company now.
They need to have their Software everywhere.
They have Office for iOS - there will be a windows for ARM.

 

[iZac]

I don't get why the millions of iOS users that don't have a Mac and, probably have a Windows machine would praise the change to an architecture that can't have Windows

My thinking is simply that iOS users would love a notebook that also runs their iPad apps / games. That kind of integration between all your devices must be a kind of holy grail for Apple.

I'm not saying it won't be painful to people that use Windows in some manner on their Apple hardware, but most people (outside of Enterprise) are rapidly moving into a post-Windows - mobile world.

 

[Michael Goff]

Its not about Windows.. you can't install Windows on iPad, can't you? Its just the evolution of iPads into iPad pro's that can be as efficient as normal desktop system. Challenging but why not. If Apple succeeds, then iPads gradually will become Chromebooks and windows notebooks (remember netbooks?) for casual users, and that's a good thing

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Fully agree on that. Would be curious to see Apple's offering.

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Maybe they will market it as a iPad pro? iPads for Creators...There is a campaign by Apple with a similar slogan..

The iPad is not the same type of device as a laptop. People expect more from a laptop. They're not going to be as efficient either, they're not designed that way.

 

[Oletros]

My thinking is simply that iOS users would love a notebook that also runs their iPad apps / games. That kind of integration between all your devices must be a kind of holy grail for Apple.

I'm not saying it won't be painful to people that use Windows in some manner on their Apple hardware, but most people (outside of Enterprise) are rapidly moving into a post-Windows - mobile world.

But you're not talking about an ARM Macbook then, you're talking about an iPad with keyboard.

 

[elvislives]

Arm based Macs.

No thank you, maybe for none power users, Try running 3D apps on Arm cpus.

 

[iZac]

But you're not talking about an ARM Macbook then, you're talking about an iPad with keyboard...

...and a mouse

Joking aside, I guess so. I can imagine Apple developing iOS into a desktop class OS much more easily than OSX being stripped down for ARM. When I plug my Wacom into my Mac, I see the same old handwriting tech that hasn't been updated in a decade and the same old applet voice recognition that still messes up my query "what time is it?" (this was back in Mavericks, so I don't know how Yosemite has changed)

 

[MacBH928]

I don't want ARM but if they see there is a market share, can't they co-exist?

They can offer an ARM extra slim extra portable laptop and your regular macbook with intel (which needs a good graphics card any way)

 

[Solomani]

How accurate is this Ming Chi guy? Have his rumors/predictions been pretty much dead-on in the recent past?

 

[FourOhFour]

What if they sell a Mac with both arm and intel CPUs? Run the OS and any apps with arm binaries on the arm CPU, but keep the intel CPU for processor intensive apps and anything that hasn't updated? I know this would be very hard if it is even possible... but it sounds more interesting to me than the iPad-with-keyboard or Mac-that-doesnt-run-apps theories.

 

[StoneJack]

What if they sell a Mac with both arm and intel CPUs? Run the OS and any apps with arm binaries on the arm CPU, but keep the intel CPU for processor intensive apps and anything that hasn't updated? I know this would be very hard if it is even possible... but it sounds more interesting to me than the iPad-with-keyboard or Mac-that-doesnt-run-apps theories.

Two CPU - very expensive.
Just one cheaper (ARM, price 30 dollars or so) is OK. Opens the door for 599$ 64Gb superslim subnotebook..cause it doesn't need GPS and 4G..runs full MS Office and iWorks for iPad in addition to million iOS apps..

 

[maflynn]

This isn't 1990
Microsoft is a Service Company now.
They need to have their Software everywhere.
They have Office for iOS - there will be a windows for ARM.

To a point yes, but they've not moved on from wanting to succeed by making apple fail.