Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
There's no way Apple (or anyone else) can compete with what Intel can offer in terms of performance, power use and cost - there's a reason that Intel is in the position it is in right now.

This is what Intel thought when they scoffed at providing chips for the iPhone when Apple originally came to them. They surely thought that Apple would have to cave and offer them what they thought was a fairer price per chip. What else could they do?
They had absolutely no idea that Apple would just go to ARM, and then start custom designing chips to meet exactly their needs. And they had no idea whatsoever that in such a short timespan Apple would design 64bit chips. And they probably continue to this day to have no idea where that design process is at at the moment. I assure you that Intel is far more worried about this than you and many other people on here are.

----------

Like it or not, the world is not going to move away from x86 on the desktop any time soon. Any chip designed in-house is going to have to offer something extremely compelling to be able to beat anything you could buy from Intel.

In a very short period of time, mobile devices have commanded a huge share of the computing market. Look at the chart in this page:

http://qz.com/176643/its-official-apple-sells-more-computers-than-all-windows-pcs-combined/

This tells you that in a very short period of time, ARM has as much clout in the world of personal computing as Intel. Times are changing. I find it hard to believe that people can state that five or ten years from now Intel will be in the exact same position as it currently is. It's not even in the same position it was five years ago. Far from it. Most people just don't want to see or realize it.
 
I'd take my iPad Air 2 with it's A8X over a laptop with a core i3 any day of the week.

Hell, this Dell I'm on a work has a Core i3 and I want to hurl it out the window it's so damn slow with simple things like email, web browsing and office.

None of which require much CPU power, and any i3 is more than capable of dealing with them.

What you are probably experiencing is a slow disk.
 
There's a difference between rolling your own CPU and rolling your own CPU that is better than what Intel can supply you with.

CPU design is not trivial.

There's no way Apple (or anyone else) can compete with what Intel can offer in terms of performance, power use and cost - there's a reason that Intel is in the position it is in right now.

ARM OEMs already thrash Intel in terms of price/performance/power. Its testament to Intel marketing prowess that its able to fool people into thinking otherwise.

Here's a simple question: If no-one can compete with Intel, why does Intel lose $1 billion on each $1 million of sales into the market into which they compete with ARM OEMs?

Intel is a monopoly player with a power hungry legacy architecture. Like all monopolists they aren't defeated so much as become irrelevant. Intel is already irrelevant as parallelism and lower power take over, while Intel doubles down on hotter processors with superior single-thread performance.
 
for me I use my Mac for simple stuff but there are those out there that still CPU power so I am not sure for hard core users the A9 or A10 will be enough if they are comparing them to the Atom and i3 CPU's.

I love Apple but in their strive to move forward they are making things ugly and not sure where they are intending on going but I hate Yosemite, flat and ugly, and the newer macs seems to be having speed issues in regards to SSD so we will see what 2015 brings, but I think as long as I can reload a Refurbished 2013 13" MBA Ultimate with Mountain Lion, I will surely go that route for myself.
 
It is true that Intel has a larger group of chip designers than Apple. But they both hire from the same pool (especially in Silicon Valley, but elsewhere as well), Apple has acquired several small companies that hire from that pool, and many in that pool don't like Intel's management style. Intel also has to keep a vast portion of their best engineers focused on the products that currently produce most of Intel's revenues, which is mostly hotter chips.

When "mostly hotter" is the laptop/mainstream chips this is deeply skewed view of the world. The classic PC division makes gobs of money also. It is only the Intel division directly trying to push into phones and small handhelds (and does the cell radios ) that is having problems.

Intel's larger group primarily allows them to do multiple things at the same time. Intel has Atom , Mainstream , and Xeon-E5+ level design teams going in parallel. That is just in x86. ... there is still some Itaniumn too. Intel has a multi decade long track record of being able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Intel is using latest process tech and better designer talent on the lower volt range of products now also. They were a little slow to respond to the ARM threat but the response has been fully engaged years ago. Intel has filled their tick/tock pipeline now.



Apple does not have mutiple front, mutliple pipeline implementation track record. Apple rolled out the "Motion" M7 a while back. .... did Apple do the two ARM chips in the iPhone? Nope.

"... Chipworks also took a look at the M7, which is actually an ARM Cortex-M3 part from NXP running at 180 MHz. The chip allows for low-power collection of motion data drawn from a Bosch Sensortec accelerometer, an STMicroelectronics gyroscope, and an AKM magnetometer. .. "
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/2...tion-coprocessor-and-more-from-the-iphone-5s/

They didn't come up with a solution to out compete NXP and they are suppose to defeat Intel on Intel's home turf???? When the Apple Watch ships it is not going to be very surprising to see another 3rd party ARM chip underneath the plastic covering Apple had slapped on top. Even if there is an Apple design team assigned to the Watch class SoC, that is just even more reason why they won't be one for a laptop sized performance design zone. The number of watches shipped is likely to roar past Mac volumes over next couple of years.

Apple has also pulled folks from OS X when iOS needs major feature push. The Mac Pro went comatose for several years. The Mac Mini went comatose for almost 2 years. The iPad mini 3 comes out and Apple has simply just changed the home button. Rosetta .... outsourced tech.

Apple has a well establish track record of applying more internal resources into a smaller set of problems than on trying to expand to cover a broad product mix. Part sharing is maximized and Apple goes OCD on minute details of a small number of products.


One key difference is that Apple now has tons of data and metrics to help them optimize chip designs for Apple's products and Apple's typical customers, which may lead them down a slightly different path than Intel's need to create chip architectures for the broader general market.

The vast majority of Apple customers are iOS customers. Restated the vast majority of Apple customers are non OS X ones. The tons of data basically points toward iOS. Apple applies that data to iOS solutions. That's fine. They are doing a good job. iOS data probably does say that 3 cores, no SMT, and relatively very limited I/O bandwidth (e.g., no USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt ) is more than plenty.

The question isn't that Apple not have tons of data. The question is whether Apple can pursue multiple paths through the data's subsets. Qualcomm , Samsung , Nvidia, and several other ARM vendors would be quite happy to if Apple pulled resources off of the iPhone/iPad application processors and went OCD on some other problem.


e.g. Apple could optimize a chip design to run faster on typical iOS apps, but slower on Android apps at the same power setting as a trade-off, whereas Intel would have to optimize for the latter as well.

Intel doesn't have to do that latter at all since Apple isn't likely to buy any Intel chips to run iOS. Intel does have to balance Android and Windows on some subset of their processor offerings. That really isn't hard for them. As outlined about they can walk and chew gum at the same time. Windows is about 9x bigger than OS X so it isn't like it is a struggle to fund either.

Intel beating back the ARM invasion into their home turf doesn't particularly matter a whole lot better how much of that is Apple, Qualcomm, or Nvidia. Intel has more x86 execution data and history than they do. At this point, OS X data is x86 data. In a contest of who has bigger pile of x86 data Intel is going to win.

OS X needs to fight off the incursion of tablets about as much as Windows does. Generally the same kinds of applications and the generally same classic user base. If the Windows counter strike goes with Intel and Apple jumps out of that bow wave ..... OS X is right back where it was in the 90s. Lower shared R&D and tons of money being bet against their underlying platform.

Even if Apple kept one foot in the Intel space ( used x86 just for MBP , iMac , and Mac Pros ) they are shooting themselves in the foot because the discounts going to get from being large Intel custom are going to slide backwards.
 
Last edited:
ARM Macs would be great for porting all those apps and games and have them sync together between desktop and mobile. Wireless :apple:too.
 
I'd take my iPad Air 2 with it's A8X over a laptop with a core i3 any day of the week.

Hell, this Dell I'm on a work has a Core i3 and I want to hurl it out the window it's so damn slow with simple things like email, web browsing and office.

iOS has a much lighter OS. Also, what generation i3 is it?
 
Apple does not have mutiple front, mutliple pipeline implementation track record. Apple rolled out the "Motion" M7 a while back. .... did Apple do the two ARM chips in the iPhone? Nope.

"... Chipworks also took a look at the M7, which is actually an ARM Cortex-M3 part from NXP running at 180 MHz. The chip allows for low-power collection of motion data drawn from a Bosch Sensortec accelerometer, an STMicroelectronics gyroscope, and an AKM magnetometer. .. "
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/2...tion-coprocessor-and-more-from-the-iphone-5s/

That's a terrible example, it may not make sense to use their own design for a motion co-processor. I mean, there are lots of processors on a given PC, apart from the CPU in various controllers and so on.
 
ARM OEMs already thrash Intel in terms of price/performance/power. Its testament to Intel marketing prowess that its able to fool people into thinking otherwise.

Here's a simple question: If no-one can compete with Intel, why does Intel lose $1 billion on each $1 million of sales into the market into which they compete with ARM OEMs?

Intel is a monopoly player with a power hungry legacy architecture. Like all monopolists they aren't defeated so much as become irrelevant. Intel is already irrelevant as parallelism and lower power take over, while Intel doubles down on hotter processors with superior single-thread performance.

What? Have you been paying attention to what Intel is doing lately or are you just making things up as you go along?
 
iOS has a much lighter OS. Also, what generation i3 is it?

True enough - not sure which generation i3 is in my Dell. Suffice it to say I looked up my model on Geekbench and the benchmarks were terrible.

I'm not going to argue anything as I'm not knowledgeable about the technical aspects.

I just know that when doing almost anything, I prefer my iPad Air 2. My Dell is a nightmare with almost any task.

I'm not saying an A8X = today's high end chips. Simply that the A8X for the low end/common Apple laptop (MBA) could work - especially next year's version (A9X). The power is there.

The issue is architecture. x86 vs ARM and all that. I wouldn't begin to know how they would plan on addressing it - but I'd bet the pros of controlling the chip and timelines and increasing efficiency/hardware-software integration not to mention lowering cost are all reasons why they'd take a look.
 
...
Here's a simple question: If no-one can compete with Intel, why does Intel lose $1 billion on each $1 million of sales into the market into which they compete with ARM OEMs? ..

In part, because the software stack doesn't have the track record on Intel x86 solution. Part of why Intel is spending alot of money is to kill off Windows RT ARM option rather than buy into Android market. All the system vendors walked away from Windows RT and most have RT price point class solutions with x86 processors in them.

Another factor is that Intel bought a cell radio vendor who thought LTE had a limited, slow pace future. Not. Couple that with trying to merge some of there stuff into Intel's fab tech and it is not a short term money winner.

I doubt Intel intends to take over the phone market any time soon but they battling a bit past their home turf border. The objective is more so not to give the ARM a free space to compete. There will be other embedded opportunities than just phones.

Intel has competition. Intel tends to operate better when there is completion. The issue isn't so much that they don't have any competition. The real issue is whether Intel doesn't compete hard in a fight of who can innovate faster. When their competitors stumble and resort to strong arming customers who have no choice then they tend to stumble.

For the whole OS X platform there is at least as much downside as there is upside of trying to split the implementations. To really compete for the whole thing a competitor is going to have to do more than just the bottom, entry level product.

Intel is a monopoly player with a power hungry legacy architecture. Like all monopolists they aren't defeated so much as become irrelevant. Intel is already irrelevant as parallelism and lower power take over, while Intel doubles down on hotter processors with superior single-thread performance.

Perhaps in some alternative universe. Some of these newest Broadwell series CPU+GPU dies are almost 50% GPU and concurrent with the latest OpenCL standards. SSE has been superseded with AVX. So then notion that Intel is not responding parallelism is rather unsubstantiated.

Intel's line up has been going lower power + more refined power gating of subset of functionality. All the moaners and whining about no super ultra clocked CPUs highlights that over the last several years.

Everyone has legacy architecture problems eventually. ARM had to dump some bagging when they shifted to ARM64 too. Intel's x86 CPUs aren't x86 past the front level decoders; there is no huge baggage problem there.
 
I'm sorry but once they stop making Intel mac, is the day I stop buying them :(

I think its a really bad idea to drop x86 platform, I can only see bad things from this shift including a more locking down of OS X. Think walled garden for OS X as well.

Same thought.

I recall when Macs were running on 68xx, then PPC CPUs. Sure they were powerful at the time compared with x86s, but it seperated Macs so much after 1 purchase, it doesn't seem feasible for most consumers to upgrade esp after 2000.

x86_64 platform is at the best I've seen yet and still improving. I rather see Apple develop their own custom x86 CPU for macs than go with a completely different architecture.

When my Mac can run any x86 O/S (Linux, Windows, etc) and be virtualize and run x86 VMs, my Macs became completely invaluable. I didn't have to buy "Dell, IBM, HP, etc" for an reliable x86 platform. I can buy a Mac, run OSX, and virtualize other O/Ses.

Going back to a different hardware architecture does not make sense!
 
True enough - not sure which generation i3 is in my Dell. Suffice it to say I looked up my model on Geekbench and the benchmarks were terrible.

I'm not going to argue anything as I'm not knowledgeable about the technical aspects.

I just know that when doing almost anything, I prefer my iPad Air 2. My Dell is a nightmare with almost any task.

I'm not saying an A8X = today's high end chips. Simply that the A8X for the low end/common Apple laptop (MBA) could work - especially next year's version (A9X). The power is there.

The issue is architecture. x86 vs ARM and all that. I wouldn't begin to know how they would plan on addressing it - but I'd bet the pros of controlling the chip and timelines and increasing efficiency/hardware-software integration not to mention lowering cost are all reasons why they'd take a look.

Except it wouldn't be enough. If you look at the ascent of the AX chips, you'll see that this year wasn't as big as last. You'll also remember that the discussion we had was about whether it is as good as an i3 or not. Apple doesn't use the i3, they use the i5. Then we get into graphics, where Intel is still ahead of Apple on their i5 and above, which is what Apple uses. Even after we deal with that, we have other issues. What speed RAM are they using? Are they capable of using PCIe SSD on it? On the software side, how many people are willing to throw everything out a second time and have almost nothing to work with?

Yes, they'd lower the cost and gain more control. But it would be a worse machine in just about every way.
 
In part, because the software stack doesn't have the track record on Intel x86 solution. Part of why Intel is spending alot of money is to kill off Windows RT ARM option rather than buy into Android market. All the system vendors walked away from Windows RT and most have RT price point class solutions with x86 processors in them.

Another factor is that Intel bought a cell radio vendor who thought LTE had a limited, slow pace future. Not. Couple that with trying to merge some of there stuff into Intel's fab tech and it is not a short term money winner.

I doubt Intel intends to take over the phone market any time soon but they battling a bit past their home turf border. The objective is more so not to give the ARM a free space to compete. There will be other embedded opportunities than just phones.

Intel has competition. Intel tends to operate better when there is completion. The issue isn't so much that they don't have any competition. The real issue is whether Intel doesn't compete hard in a fight of who can innovate faster. When their competitors stumble and resort to strong arming customers who have no choice then they tend to stumble.

For the whole OS X platform there is at least as much downside as there is upside of trying to split the implementations. To really compete for the whole thing a competitor is going to have to do more than just the bottom, entry level product.



Perhaps in some alternative universe. Some of these newest Broadwell series CPU+GPU dies are almost 50% GPU and concurrent with the latest OpenCL standards. SSE has been superseded with AVX. So then notion that Intel is not responding parallelism is rather unsubstantiated.

Intel's line up has been going lower power + more refined power gating of subset of functionality. All the moaners and whining about no super ultra clocked CPUs highlights that over the last several years.

Everyone has legacy architecture problems eventually. ARM had to dump some bagging when they shifted to ARM64 too. Intel's x86 CPUs aren't x86 past the front level decoders; there is no huge baggage problem there.

Nope. You seem to think posting a lot of irrelevant technical stuff helps your argument. It really doesn't.

The x86 front end decoder and other circuitry designed to ameliorate Intel's architectural disdvantage ultimately increases power consumption. Intel compensates for this by investing in advanced processes, which costs a fortune and is increasingly delivering diminishing returns.

So yes, Intel is finally delivering real low power parts, only now because the process node enables it, but at great cost. ARM still wins on price/power/performance and always has.

ARM on the other hand has been delivering very low power processors for decades. The future is many low power cores. Intel cannot deliver comparable performance and power in this scenario because it has a bloated architecture and that can never be fixed without ditching x86. That "baggage" is their death sentence. The marginal cost of that circuitry is too great in a increasingly parallel world.

The other stuff you wrote is just a red herring. For example Intel offers custom silicon so you can add LTE or whatever you like.
 
Will the new 12" MBA use ARM chips? Interesting idea. Keep the power hungry Pro machines on Intel for now. Does that mean it wouldn't run OSX software? Move to iOS instead?
 
I think this discussion is fascinating... 3 years ago we wouldn't have even considered this ever an option. I'll be curios to see how skylake progresses as it looks to be a monster.

Today I equate current gen Arm chips to a Ducati. Give it a light load and straight road and the thing will fly. But try using a Ducati to pull a boat trailer and you're going nowhere. The intel chips are F350's with dually diesels and ton's of torque to handle that weight load.

Arm is trying to up their muscle while intel is working to get svelte. Someday maybe they'll meet in the middle but my $ will be on intel with their expertise and R&D $.
 
Horrible plan. I think the reason why the Mac line has become more successful over the last decade is precisely because they went to Intel processors. It would be a shame to see that go away. PPC to Intel transition was a headache that took years to stabilize. Using ARM processors in the desktop and laptop line would be a huge mistake, and it really just doesn't make a lot of sense, regardless of how much control it would give them over their supply line. It's just a dumb move, and I hope it doesn't happen.
 
Intel has a multi decade long track record of being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. ...

Many think the corporate habit of doing this leads to a lack of focus... the kind of focus that Apple uses to differentiate its products into higher profit margin market segments (for itself, not always its suppliers).

Intel has also reportedly refused (or not had a fast or flexible enough design methodology) to tweak their designs in ways that Apple determined would help Apple make better products for Apple's customers. That may be represent another one of the flaws in Intel's corporate culture.

The open question is whether the benefits of Apple's desired custom architecture and design tweaks (which Intel won't or is slow in adding) are greater than the added cost of Apple designing (more) ARM CPUs, rather than just buying Intel x86's.

I don't know. But given my desired usage of my MacBook Air 11, it's quite possible. And Apple has many many billions to spend on R&D if they don't just want to keep buying their own stock.
 
I, for one, am very much looking forward to all ARM-based Macs. Having my 12-hour renders on my 12-core nMP turn into 1 week renders seems very appealing. The wisdom in this type of move is very obvious. After all, less is more.

In all seriousness... if Apple moves to ARM Macs across the board. We will be forced off the platform onto Windows. And that's something that makes me very unhappy.
 
People needs to realize that ARM in this case tells nothing about performance, Apple is just using the ISA. It's just a spec of a CPU interface, and has nothing to do with the actual hardware which Apple design themselves.
 
People needs to realize that ARM in this case tells nothing about performance, Apple is just using the ISA. It's just a spec of a CPU interface, and has nothing to do with the actual hardware which Apple design themselves.

Hardly. They modify ARM's designs. They're not reinventing the wheel they're just adjusting the design somewhat to suit their needs.
 
Hardly. They modify ARM's designs. They're not reinventing the wheel they're just adjusting the design somewhat to suit their needs.

Well, ARM offers two licenses and up until I think the A6 Apple used the ARM Cortex cores and designed an SoC around that. From then they used the ARM ISA license, and like Qualcomm makes their own micro architecture. At the time Chipworks made some analysis on the core which revealed that it's not only their own design, but that the layout is done by hand which pretty much conclusively proves you wrong.

http://www.chipworks.com/en/technic.../apple-iphone-5-the-a6-application-processor/

In any case, if we leave that behind, there is very little, if anything that can be predicted about performance from the ISA alone.
 
Nope. You seem to think posting a lot of irrelevant technical stuff helps your argument. It really doesn't.

The x86 front end decoder and other circuitry designed to ameliorate Intel's architectural disdvantage ultimately increases power consumption. Intel compensates for this by investing in advanced processes, which costs a fortune and is increasingly delivering diminishing returns.

So yes, Intel is finally delivering real low power parts, only now because the process node enables it, but at great cost. ARM still wins on price/power/performance and always has.

ARM on the other hand has been delivering very low power processors for decades. The future is many low power cores. Intel cannot deliver comparable performance and power in this scenario because it has a bloated architecture and that can never be fixed without ditching x86. That "baggage" is their death sentence. The marginal cost of that circuitry is too great in a increasingly parallel world.

The other stuff you wrote is just a red herring. For example Intel offers custom silicon so you can add LTE or whatever you like.

Yes, it is interesting that specialized processing is making a big comeback at the same time as mult-icore processing is finally emerging as a viable option (because finally they have the compilers/languages that will abstract this all away).

With the convergence of GPU/CPU and low power on the way, Intel is out of its element. Apple obviously seems to be very interested in using something that blurs the line between the CPU and the GPU.
 
With the convergence of GPU/CPU and low power on the way, Intel is out of its element. Apple obviously seems to be very interested in using something that blurs the line between the CPU and the GPU.
Broadwell appears to have some decent power saving technology and the GPU is the biggest improvement of the chipset. I'm not sure Intel is out of their element here, true they missed the boat on tablets and phones, but for laptops, I think their low power products are a good balance of performance and power consumption.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.