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An ARM mac would have to be able to emulate x86 applications with little performance loss. Otherwise the ecosystem would fragment which Apple wouldn't let happen.

Archeticure is starting to matter less and less and I imagine in a couple years we will see a MBA priced at $500-600with A10/11 ARM chips.

However if Apple were to abandon x86 entirely, I can see them losing their pro market, which basically has kept Apple alive throughout it's worst times.
I think Apple or at least Tim cook knows this and that's why they redeisgned the Mac Pro and it will likely always stay Intel.
 
Sorry but building an ARM Macs falls under this is plainly stupid category. It will bring Apple back to the old days of software development of Apple is at best an after thought if at all due to designing and developing for x86 and ARM is very different and optimizations on one do not work on the other. Hell it can make the other a lot slower.

There is a reason Sony and Microsoft both left their processors and moved their latest gen over to x86 based. It was to drive down development cost, make it easier to develop for their platforms and encourage companies to do so as PC porting the game is a lot easier since a majority of the code is the same and the processor would work the same.

So yeah going over to ARM macs falls under stupid category.
 
I'm pretty skeptical. I'd expect that Apple more than anyone else would have reservations about switching to desktop architecture no one else is using. They've been burned here before. Developing high-performance microprocessors is very expensive. The market can *barely* sustain two suppliers as it is, as AMD continues to flounder. Would Apple commit to, essentially permanently, contributing substantial resources to keep up with Intel? Consider that this involves heavy research into process improvements and physical properties well outside Apple's specialties.

Making high volume chips for mobile devices that build on existing processes? Absolutely.

Investing the resources in researching and shrinking fabrication techniques necessary to compete with companies who focus solely on this kind of thing? And the enormously-expensive fabs necessary to support them? *And* deliver in the volume required to support their product lines. I'm not convinced.

The thing is, they're already investing resources to develop their own Ax processors with integrated GPUs for the iPhones and iPads. We've also reached a plateau where trying to compete with Intel on the low-end doesn't mean much for regular users. This is not the 1990's where computers would almost double in computing power every year or two.

It doesn't matter if the A9X is only a quarter of the computing power of an Intel i5 if most people only use 20% of the i5. What it does mean is that instead of costing Apple 300$ or more for that i5, they split the development costs even further and only pay for the manufacturing, I'm guessing well below 30$ per CPU. If that means a MacBook Air and a Mac mini with a 250$ lower price, I'd be happy if the software I use gets released for the A9X.

For gaming, I've given up on using a Mac last year and built myself a low-end gaming PC for under 300$ which has a desktop GPU that would require me to buy a 1000$ Mac to get the laptop version of that same GPU.

Low-end, low-cost, ARM: MacBook Air, Mac mini.
Middle and high-end, x86: MacBook Pro, iMac, Mac Pro.
 
I see the advantages like docking your iPhone and having your full blown Mac powering a 5K display playing Crysis with Pixelmator editing your RAW files and Final Cut Pro rendering some video in the background.
 
Trust me, this Mac will get a long run in this case, after that, I wouldn't know what to do.
Depends a lot on if it's feasible to invest in a mediocre Mac and a powerful PC at the same time to check out my current Mac.

No more beefy software for OS X? I'm surely not going to run all the software I currently run on i3-grade hardware, that's for sure.
Also, I'm currently using Bootcamp to also load Windows, you know, the real Windows, not the same-branded knock off from the same developer that doesn't run nearly as much software.

Whatever comes from this, if I won't be able to get an x86-Mac in future, I won't budget for high-end configurations anymore.
No point.
(And here's the hint: this might be the start of upgrade-exclusive features on Mac in the scale of how they treat their iDevice fleet.)

Glassed Silver:mac
 
An ARM mac would have to be able to emulate x86 applications with little performance loss. Otherwise the ecosystem would fragment which Apple wouldn't let happen.

Archeticure is starting to matter less and less and I imagine in a couple years we will see a MBA priced at $500-600with A10/11 ARM chips.

However if Apple were to abandon x86 entirely, I can see them losing their pro market, which basically has kept Apple alive throughout it's worst times.
I think Apple or at least Tim cook knows this and that's why they redeisgned the Mac Pro and it will likely always stay Intel.

I think the loss of x86 on even the lower end market on Apple they could say bye to the pros. This is due to the fact that the pros would start struggling just to get needed software as there is even less incentive to make it for Apple.
 
According to AppleInsider:


If this does happen, it would be interesting to see Apple totally redo Mac OS X in Swift. Yes, It's a big change, but it would be an interesting one. I'll wait and see if it's a good or bad change if/when they release it.

Microsoft had tried to write OS in C# ... In the end they have found out, surprisingly, that it's incredibly slow (project Longhorn)... And they had to rewrite it in C/C++ (Vista). And ...

But I can imagine hybrid x86/ARM chip solution, allowing both better battery life and legacy apps :)
 
Here is my pure speculation. Why not use both Intel and ARM together? Just like they do with GPUs (in some models) in the past? ARM for basic needs like web browsing, iTunes and such, and Intel only when running x86 (or 64) binaries or during virtualization. That could potentially save a lot of power, if Intel chip is left at sleep, or could leave the Intel cores for more power hungry apps, reducing task switching overheads and increasing perceived speed of processing for those apps.

I am not an OS or logic design expert. Just speculating here.

It would be an excellent idea:
  • allows for a smoother and longer transition period
  • allows developers to test their software on both CPUs
  • If you don't run x86 software, gives you a lot more hours of portable computing

Given how relatively smooth the 68K/PowerPC and the PowerPC/x86 transitions were, I don't see why we couldn't have a smooth x86/ARM transition too.

I think Apple (or at least Tim) might be a bit annoyed by Intel at the moment with the delays of their latest CPUs. There's also the high cost of Intel processors and the fact that ARM Macs or not, Apple is investing in their own AX processors for the iPhones and iPads so it wouldn't be an additional R&D expense - it's already being done.

And if we talk about games, look at the games available on iOS. The A8X CPU/GPU is more or less as powerful as an Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 and Apple keeps pushing their AX forward every year.
 
It would be an excellent idea:
  • allows for a smoother and longer transition period
  • allows developers to test their software on both CPUs
  • If you don't run x86 software, gives you a lot more hours of portable computing

Given how relatively smooth the 68K/PowerPC and the PowerPC/x86 transitions were, I don't see why we couldn't have a smooth x86/ARM transition too.

I think Apple (or at least Tim) might be a bit annoyed by Intel at the moment with the delays of their latest CPUs. There's also the high cost of Intel processors and the fact that ARM Macs or not, Apple is investing in their own AX processors for the iPhones and iPads so it wouldn't be an additional R&D expense - it's already being done.

And if we talk about games, look at the games available on iOS. The A8X CPU/GPU is more or less as powerful as an Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 and Apple keeps pushing their AX forward every year.

Hybrid solution would be best, but :apple: , PLEASE, fix OS X Yosemite bugs FIRST, BEFORE releasing something as huge is this would be... Wi-Fi still isn't working 100 % right on both iOS 8 / OS X Yosemite. :confused:
 
Agreed. Would be a disaster, and unnecessary.

Sorry but building an ARM Macs falls under this is plainly stupid category. It will bring Apple back to the old days of software development of Apple is at best an after thought if at all due to designing and developing for x86 and ARM is very different and optimizations on one do not work on the other. Hell it can make the other a lot slower.

There is a reason Sony and Microsoft both left their processors and moved their latest gen over to x86 based. It was to drive down development cost, make it easier to develop for their platforms and encourage companies to do so as PC porting the game is a lot easier since a majority of the code is the same and the processor would work the same.

So yeah going over to ARM macs falls under stupid category.

Yeah, all those saying this is a good idea seem to have short memories. OSX on x86 enabled Apple to compete and lower prices due to commodity hardware. Going back to a non-standard architecture was a development chore despite Rosetta translation.

If they split or switch architectures, I predict it won't end well.
 
The only way a switch from Intel to ARM will make sense is if one day ARM processors outperform Intel's by a large margin. On all parameters.
And it needs to be the case for all classes of processors used by the entire Mac lineup.
 
I'm sorry but once they stop making Intel mac, is the day I stop buying them :(

I think its a really bad idea to drop x86 platform, I can only see bad things from this shift including a more locking down of OS X. Think walled garden for OS X as well.

Yes, because Apple would have a chance to start with no prior software built for ARM. They could immediately lock the Mac down like an iPhone with an App Store. They can't do that now with x86 because there's already so much software that isn't on the Mac App Store.

I don't think they're going to do this anyway. Maybe just for netbook Macs. I thought Intel's Core M was supposed to be for those, though.

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huh? why?

people probably said the same thing with PPC.

Moving to ARM gives them a whole lot more flexibility and they're not tied to Intel's timeline.

PPC was actually losing to Intel x86 in pretty much every way.
 
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That's valid only if the ARM won't run x86 binaries. If Apple does a "Rosetta2" then that would be OK for me.

----

The phrase "Rosetta 2.0" was forming in my mind then I saw you wrote it. The transition from PPC to Intel wasn't painless, but Rosetta certainly eased my suffering.


It is petty tough to do Rosetta 2 when didn't do Rosetta 1. Technically Apple really didn't do Rosetta. The core of the Rosetta system was actually technology from a company called Transitive. That company doesn't exist anymore ( acquired by IBM which probably has about close to zero interest in giving Apple a sweetheart deal on a follow on. ) .


There's another way to look at it. There is a library of 1 million iOS apps, some of which could form the basis of a new library of OS X apps.

Cocoa Touch and Cocoa are different enough that this really isn't a core. It is also the case if just add a few more tweaks to Cocoa Touch is it really necessary? These same apps that are a "core" are also essentially in competition. Things like Continuity are also dual edge swords as iOS matures and takes on more robust abilities.

Apple has never moved an Apple OS to a platform that already has major established Apple OS.


Anyway, Apple handled the 68K to PPC transition pretty smoothly, and Rosetta worked decently enough in the transition from PPC to x86.

Apple did the 68K -> PPC transition about two decades ago. If Apple hasn't technically done an emulator in that long of a period of time, what is the chance they still have retained the skill set necessary? It was absent enough almost a decade ago that they outsourced the solution from Transitive. They still haven't built any deployed expertise and Transitive is now gone.


The other huge gap is that the 68K -> PPC and PPC --> x86 transition points the targeted arch was substantively faster than what was moving away from. That eases the dealing with the emulation overhead. In this proposed ARM one, there is mostly arm waving flapping (***) about how ARM might be equivalent speed with native, not emulated, code.

Cheaper doesn't particularly had major traction either when Intel now has sub $100 SoC offerings. [ Sure the current ones are a bit behind the high end ARM but in the two years for ARM to catch up, Intel can be doing the exact same thing with there low cost alternatives. ]

Apple's ARM implementations are optimized for the same constraints iOS has. Primarily one app at time (with some background daemons). If iOS shifts to multiple concurrent apps with the ARM following then what's the point of porting OS X? If iOS is consuming OS X functional domain, then just let the process roll forward.


*** Geekbench and synthetic gaming benchmarks are arm flapping. They aren't system performance benchmarks of real world load. Benchmarks of primarily instruction cache loaded code and high data cache hit rates doesn't necessarily hold up in real world app contexts and even less in emulator (and higher than average branching) workloads.

Geekbench multipe threaded is not necessarily indicative of multiple process/application performance at all. SIMD is not MIMD.

I'm not saying everything would be perfect, or that there aren't drawbacks to a switch to ARM, but it would be irresponsible for Apple NOT to at least experiment with the idea.

An experiment used to trot out as a bogeyman to scare/motivation Intel to keep pushing. Absolutely worth the money. Intel is at its best when they running in the paranoid mode ( " Only the paranoid survive" -- Andy Grove).
I don't think have to necessarily drag things to market (e.g., Windows NT on Alpha / MIPS , Windows RT ) to actually get them going if proactive in asking for stuff and looking to leave them reasonable profits for their products.

However, a major part of why the 68K -> PPC and PPC -> x86 transitions made sense was that to move ALL of the Mac platform over. The emulator is more so for seamless legacy apps while the developers and users shift over at various speeds. However, the emulators Apple deployed were never intended to be permanent solutions.

If Intel and AMD totally screw up down stream then sure they can go to the Plan B ARM alternative. So far Intel hasn't screwed up in the processor space that Apple actually buys. Their roadmap for the next 2-3 years is pretty good and Apple probably an even deeper insight into that than most do.


They are getting to be pretty good at customizing ARM for mobile devices. If they ramp up power consumption to the levels NVIDIA is using for the Tegra K1 they may be able to get a notebook running at decent speeds in the near future.

That doesn't make alot of sense. Can't really just ramp the exact same design up to high power or super high clock rate. The power and clock distribution are tuned for specific implementations.

It makes sense for Apple to do optimized SoC for their high volume iOS devices. The major disconnect is that OS X devices, relatively speaking, are not high volume. Apple has shown little to no motivation to get into low volume ARM optimizations at all. None. They even rebadged the M1/M2 motion solutions from outsourced provider(s).

Apple has enough chip design expertise to do about 2 SoC designs in pipeline fashion An and AnX ( where n = 5 , 8 , 9 , etc. ) that's it. The focus on a small targeted implementation is exactly why they are managing to get to market several months ahead of the other ARM vendors who have more design and more general implementation targets. If Apple widens their focus there is zero indication that they won't slide back to being matched with same logistical overhead the other ARM implementors have. It won't improve the overall corporate competitive position to sacrifice iOS competitive advantage just to weave in OS X and gratuitously kick Intel in the shins.

Nvidia isn't a particularly successful ARM implementor in the mobile space.
They have a limited set of design wins, but are not the major player Apple is competing against. Apple will have better GPUs over time. Mostly likely those will be optimized for iPad usage.
 
so that basically confirms that the apple watch will be on the same refresh cycle as the iPad and iPhone, a new version EVERY year S1 for 2015 and S2 for 2016

how are they going to convince their customers to upgrade every year? especially the ones that got the gold version?
 
Yes, because Apple would have a chance to start with no prior software built for ARM. They could immediately lock the Mac down like an iPhone with an App Store. They can't do that now with x86 because there's already so much software that isn't on the Mac App Store.

I don't think they're going to do this anyway. Maybe just for netbook Macs. I thought Intel's Core M was supposed to be for those, though.

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PPC was actually losing to Intel x86 in pretty much every way.

Hm, if Apple is actually going the ARM route what I dont hope and dont think and they are really crazy enough to lock down to Mac App Store Apps with its current rules they could just stop selling Macs.

You think Adobe, Microsoft bend over stop their subscription system for Mac software give 30% to Apple and may have to cripple some software features to get into the appstore? They rather just skip OSX and may be if the Linux community gets its ****ing act together and makes one really usable distribution and no distribution is inventing the wheel new just because they can fork everything and make everything their own version, maybe those companies will use the development resources for Linux instead for OS X.

And I'm not talking just about Adobe and Microsoft. So many software companies dont want to deliver through the appstore and many of them simply cant. Just look, Panic removed Coda for web development out of the appstore because the restrictions would have crippeled the software too much.

Thats a bad idea.


Its one thing to restrict a platform from the beginning rather than restrict if it was a open system before.
 
Kuo's "insights" are nearly all either wildly obvious or wild guesses.

Apple Said to Upgrade iPad Air With Gold Option and Anti-Reflective Laminated Display

Obvious.

iPhone 6 May Lose Sapphire Display Cover, Gain 128 GB Storage Option

Obvious.

Apple's iWatch Pegged for 2015 Debut in Two Sizes With 8 GB Storage, Multiple Material Options

Good call. That's one.

Apple Not Expected to Ship Reversible USB-Lightning Cable or New Adapter Alongside iPhone 6

Obvious.

Apple's iWatch May Not Launch Until 2015

. . . as disclosed by Apple and many others. Obvious.

Optical Image Stabilization May Be Differentiating Factor for 5.5-Inch iPhone 6 [Updated]

Another good call. Two.

X Apple May Introduce 8GB iPhone 5s and Lower-Cost iMacs at WWDC

Wild guess.

iWatch to Come in Two Sizes With 'Fashionable Appearance', Top End to Cost 'Several Thousand' Dollars

Fashionable? Obvious. Pricing: not yet.

iPad Air and Retina iPad Mini to Get Touch ID This Year

Obvious.

iPhone 6 Could See Sleep/Wake Button Move, 401 ppi in 5.5" Model

Sigh. Obvious.

Apple Predicted to Adopt NFC in iPhone 6 as Core Technology for Mobile Payments System

Obvious.

X Apple Predicted to Release Ultra-Slim 12-Inch MacBook with Retina Display in Mid-2014

This one could have been right, except for Intel's chipset delays.

Apple Looking to Launch Lower-Cost iMac in 2014

. . . and 2013, and 2012, and 2011 . . . Obvious.

X iPad 5 and iPad Mini 2 to Be Equipped with 8-Megapixel Rear Cameras

iPad 5?

And this one: X Apple Diversifies Chip Orders for iOS Device and Apple Watch Amid Predictions of ARM Macs.

I'm waiting for the announcement that Apple will be integrating Z-Wave and Home Kit into Apple TV, Airport base stations, or both.

The sad fact is that without guys like Kuo doing "analysis" there'd be little for MacRumors to publish.
 
Am I the only one thinking this would be something like an iPad with a keyboard to compete with Chromebooks? A Macbook with ARM will be more like iOS in a laptop form factor
 
Everyone is worried about Intel compatibility but what about IOS compatibility instead? Apple should focus on compatibility between their two OS's - OSX and IOS rather than catering to the small percentage who want to run Windows!!! Is there really another reason to support Intel other than running Windows on it?

What I think they are planning is targeting smaller devices where a keyboard and more advances OS is required - where an iPad is not quite good enough but a laptop is overkill.

Imagine an iPad like device with touchscreen and keyboard that will run OSX, but also be able to run IOS apps! I would imagine they would merge OSX and IOS a bit more to do this but only allow OSX apps installation from App store for example. Sorta like how MS attempted with Windows RT.
 
A computer is a DEVICE you use for TASKS. So long as it performs those tasks, the OS, CPU, or apps simply don't matter.

Nobody here is posting on a Mac II si using Netscape. [sadly]

Can't I have my 2017 machine import my Wordstar, Eudora, aol or filesystem, and everything in between, backups?
 
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