Apple Employee Screwed Up = $250 off new MacBook Pro

[MVApple]

Dishonest? Hypothetical scenario follows to explore the point:

Let's see.. I go to a business knowing the price of a product. I request that a staff member sell me the product. The business representative rings up the products with the appropriate pricing, discounts, and coupons based on internal business procedures then requests payment for the items.

I don't recall there being a requirement that I tell a business representative the price their business charges for a product. I do not recall there being a requirement that I tell a business representative how to do their job. I do not work for the business. I have no responsibility to ensure the business works as it should. $#%& the business.

On eBay if someone sells a priceless silver necklace for $20, is it dishonest to buy the necklace even if you know the value of the item is higher than the seller requests for it? Millions of people purchasing antiques seem to think it is just fine to buy low and sell high. These antique seekers are often taking advantage of a seller's lack of knowledge.

I believe our entire stock market is based on buying low and selling high, but if someone sold their stocks low then it is immoral to buy them to sell later at a much higher price. Umm.. not so much.

Dishonest implies theft. I can't speak to the legality of it, but morally I feel that if you sell me something at a price that you set then you cannot feel wronged if I pay the price without questioning it.

Capitalism is a bitch.

Well I see where you are coming from but I'm not sure comparing the stock market to this scenario is a good analogy. First of all the buyer knew what the store policy was and it was dishonest not to say anything. Just because someone makes a mistake doesn't mean its ok to take advantage of them.

In the stock market its different because when someone goes in to the stock market they realize that they are taking a gamble and that there is risk involved. In other words they are fully away of what is going on. Now lets say some insider trading was going on, well that would be a closer analogy. Insider trading will also land you in jail by the way.

Now if I sold you a million dollar violin for a dollar that's not necessarily dishonest. Lets say I KNEW it was worth a million dollars but I just liked you or I was strapped for cash and needed to sell, that's not dishonest. Lets say I didn't know it was worth that much and you did and you didn't say anything thats dishonest.

The difference of course is that in one scenario the person is fully away of what is going on and in the other his lack of knowledge is being abused. Is it the sellers fault he got ripped off? Sure but that doesn't make it right, it's still dishonest. We are talking about honesty, not who's fault it was.

As it is, no one is going to get fired for making a mistake like selling Apple's laptops with the old education discount.

 

[Abstract]

Well I see where you are coming from but I'm not sure comparing the stock market to this scenario is a good analogy.

I agree, and don't think any of it was a good analogy. However, I also wouldn't worry about it. Nobody is going to get fired, or have their salary reduced because of this error.


I'm not sure if it's different in every State in the US (I'm not American), but I'm fairly certain that it's illegal to take advantage of the employees mistake if you knew you were going to be a beneficiary of an employee mistake. It's fraud.

This topic has been discussed in this forum many times by people who know a lot more than me regarding US law, so that's just what I picked up. If it's not fraud in your State, it's still immoral.


On that note, I would have just kept my mouth shut if I was in the same situation. At a large business, this won't even register as an error until later, where they'd never bother trying to track a $150 error. If the total monetary discrepancy at the end of the week/month was larger than usual, they may investigate to find out the reason how these mistakes were made. In other words, they'd be looking for the cause, and wouldn't be doing it to hunt down a single employee. They just want to know where the deficiencies are in the knowledge they're giving to employees.

 

[8767092]

I'll concede that my stock market analogy wasn't the best for this situation. I wanted another example of "pure" capitalism at its finest and it came to mind. These posts are only about the morality of it. If you're curious about the legality then talk to a lawyer.

The same type of "dishonesty" argument could be applied when you use stacked coupons that state "not to be combined with any other offer" to get a lower price at an online retailer.

Trust in trade is a two way street. Corporate America is doing everything they can to lower costs in every way possible to avoid every fee/tax they can. That isn't a moral thing to do.

Apple shipped my Macbook Pro from Shanghai, China instead of Main Street, USA. Is it moral that they take jobs from the USA to maximize profits? Is it moral to setup a business branch in a known tax haven to avoid additional taxes here in the USA?

The thing about expecting morality from people is that the people know who they are dealing with. Business is cut throat and morals are an after thought. Apple minimizes their costs and people do too.

I stand by my last statement most of all:

Capitalism is a bitch.

 

[Abstract]

Apple shipped my Macbook Pro from Shanghai, China instead of Main Street, USA. Is it moral that they take jobs from the USA to maximize profits?

Yes.


Furthermore, if consumers looked at the big picture instead of buying their product from whichever retailer sells it the cheapest, retailers wouldn't race to deliver the absolute lowest price. Retail prices are driven down by consumers who would do anything to save anything, even $10, off a $2000 product. This is what it's like in many countries, but based on my travel experience in other countries, I'd argue it's worse in places like the US, and in some Asian countries like China, Hong Kong, Macau (neither are countries, but I consider them fairly separate), than it is in other developed countries. In some countries, people understand that paying $349 (no delivery fee) for a camera from a local camera shop is OK, even if they found an online retailer that would sell it for $329 (+ $10 delivery). The slight difference in cost supports the actual physical retail presence, real customer support, etc.

Anyway, is it immoral to take jobs away from Americans who have driven companies to offer the absolute lowest price possible? No it's not. If they don't, then you won't shop at their store. If they do, then you will shop there, so whose fault is it?

A person who saves an extra $150 because you knew the salesperson was making a mistake (which I believe is fraud even if you didn't actively try to scam the company) does not help your argument.


But again, I'd take the extra savings if it was offered to me. I just don't complain that manufacturing jobs are being moved overseas. You're the beneficiary of all this, and you drive this system towards this outcome.

 

[henhowc]

Some of you guys and your "holier than thou" attitude are hilarious. I bet if you could take advantage of this oversight you wouldn't be whining about other people's lack of honesty and integrity.

Keep pretending if it helps you sleep better at night...

 

[8767092]

Anyway, is it immoral to take jobs away from Americans who have driven companies to offer the absolute lowest price possible? No it's not. If they don't, then you won't shop at their store. If they do, then you will shop there, so whose fault is it?

A person who saves an extra $150 because you knew the salesperson was making a mistake (which I believe is fraud even if you didn't actively try to scam the company) does not help your argument.


But again, I'd take the extra savings if it was offered to me. I just don't complain that manufacturing jobs are being moved overseas. You're the beneficiary of all this, and you drive this system towards this outcome.

Your argument is solid except for one small problem. The consumers weren't the ones that started the immorality loop that we are seeing in the marketplace.

The root statement behind your argument put simply is, "It is immoral to shop around for a lowest possible price."

Capitalism isn't moral, but we can attempt to be moral in our pursuit of capitalism. Is it moral to shop at all possible retail locations to find the one with the lowest price? Is it moral to compare between different brands to find the one with the lowest price? Certainly. Morality in this case would only come into play if you've cheated someone in some way.

The other side is a different story. Companies that responded to the market pressure by moving factories overseas to countries that allow abuse of workers, that used tax havens to avoid paying taxes in the USA, and that are generally being irresponsible corporate citizens are most definitely acting immorally.

Comparative morality is definitely convenient isn't it? We can be immoral and justify it by comparing ourselves to something that is even more immoral.

I will now use my two catch phrases:

Capitalism is a bitch, enough said.

 

[LDB]

As I said, screw honesty and integrity. If one has no integrity they can dismiss this action and justify it with situational ethics. Situational ethics are the friend of those who lack integrity and therefore lack absolute ethics. That allows dismissing dishonest acts like this.

If this is ok then why not put a mouse and a couple of games into the box, pay the honest price for the computer and leave with all the loot? You're still only taking $150 from the store without paying for it? No difference according to some of you.

 

[anim8or]

Or the employee will be fired, but hey, SCREW HONESTY AND INTEGRITY. Who needs that when they look in the mirror as long as they've got 150 dishonest dollars in their pocket?

Hmmm... a little over the top i think.

Apple can afford to lose $150, that doesnt justify that it happened but it did, she read something wrong or miscalculated, its really isnt a big deal seeing as Apple technically are not losing a cent as they make the bloody things!

Its not as if they are gonna close down over that kinda loss, maybe in a small old man business where every penny counts, but not a HUGE corporation like apple.....

besides everyone at apple is lovely and wouldn't fire someone over a silly mistake

 

[LDB]

Ohhhhhh, I get it now. Honesty and integrity only matter in certain situations and honest people with integrity are only supposed to be that way some of the time in some situations. The rest of the time it's not dishonest to be dishonest.

 

[eGraeme]

how else do you think they'll get the money back?

ive never heard of an employer (outside of trashy rednecks in tv shows) saying theyd take it out of someones paycheck

id chalk it up to "poor management/training" which would be apples fault.

my karma isnt worth that extra price difference tho
i know id end up getting a flat tire on the way home or something!
lol

 

[MowingDevil]

ive never heard of an employer (outside of trashy rednecks in tv shows) saying theyd take it out of someones paycheck

id chalk it up to "poor management/training" which would be apples fault.

my karma isnt worth that extra price difference tho
i know id end up getting a flat tire on the way home or something!
lol

Some gas stations do it with employees who were victims of gas theft. Its illegal but they do it anyways. Used to happen to a friend of mine at a Chevron. Maybe thats why you hear stories of gas jockies jumping in front of cars trying to bolt w/o paying.

Well, according to my high school teacher, he had a friend who picked up a dusty violin at a garage sale for some small amount. Turns out it was one of those rare, antique violins and he sold it for something like half a millions bucks.

Thats such BS! Not on your part but your teacher's. Its an urban myth of finding a Stradivarius at a garage sale.

...or perhaps he sold a "replica" to an unknowing buyer (extremely unlikely)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/09/16/earlyshow/saturday/main62479.shtml
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080910172405AAPQtEF

Once again I'm shocked at how so many people who allegedly love Apple computers would stop at nothing to rip them off whenever given the chance. Is that what happens when the "switchers" begin to outnumber the "fan-boys?"

Knowing what the real price is and allowing an employee to charge you less as an oversight is indeed unethical and immoral. Anyone who argues otherwise...I don't know what to say. That stock market example was weak. Garage sale examples are weak. This is a clear cut error and if you know about it and do nothing...well that says alot about your character.

Furthermore, I do NOT see the connection between deception, dishonesty and capitalism....err, wait a sec yes I do.
n/m

Karma is a bitch too.