Apple Employees Continue to Fight Return to Campuses and Push for Better Remote Working Options

[DeepWebinar]

It's up to the employer to foster an environment where employees thrive. But my point simply is it's a team effort, and the employers should do what they can within the bounds of the culture of the company. More power to those companies whose culture has that flexibility...some companies do and some don't. Sometimes it works better for a company to have their staff work onsite. But if the employer says no to a more flexible WFH policy and that decision doesn't suit the employee the employee has to make some decisions.

Saying you're a valued employee, and I'm glad you are, has little do with the premise of this discussion.

It has to do with the discussion when the implication is dissenting from the company’s interests makes you a bad employee.

At the end of the day, I fundamentally disagree with you. I reject the premise that the company sets the rules or “culture” and the employees follow it. Workplace culture is set by the employees, not the company. Company culture statements are toothless, their actual culture comes from their business practices. Not listening to the concerns of your employees speaks way louder than a statement about idealistic values.

And finding a new job or adjusting aren’t the only decisions the employees can make. One of the decisions the employees can make is to organize, maybe strike, and negotiate with the company to better working conditions. It’s not up to the company to dictate these things. We’re seeing it now with Apple employees calling out their culture.

I support the workers. Always. If they say that going back to the office will affect their quality of living, and they’ve proven it’s not necessary, I support their organizing around fighting back.

 

[DeepWebinar]

The entire job market isn't operating in exactly the same way. Somewhere in one of the threads I did make mention that the comments referred to professional, exempt employees.

The job market all operates on the thinking that the company dictates, and the employees falls in line or leaves.

 

[ipponrg]

I reject the premise that the company sets the rules or “culture” and the employees follow it. Workplace culture is set by the employees, not the company. Company culture statements are toothless, their actual culture comes from their business practices. Not listening to the concerns of your employees speaks way louder than a statement about idealistic values.

You can reject it all you want, but it varies company to company and team to team. In my tenure as a software engineer in small to large tech companies over the last 20+ years, I have not seen (yet) culture being set entirely by the employees. I figure this is primarily due to two reasons: (1) no one is irreplaceable and (2) paycheck comes top down. Sure, you can set some cultural expectations within your domain (such as happy hours, all hands meetings, mentorship programs, etc), but I think your expectations should be grounded.

And finding a new job or adjusting aren’t the only decisions the employees can make. One of the decisions the employees can make is to organize, maybe strike, and negotiate with the company to better working conditions. It’s not up to the company to dictate these things. We’re seeing it now with Apple employees calling out their culture.

Apple is the epitome of capitalism. At the end of the day, you can either follow their rules or expect consequences. Your choice.

 

[I7guy]

It has to do with the discussion when the implication is dissenting from the company’s interests makes you a bad employee.

At the end of the day, I fundamentally disagree with you. I reject the premise that the company sets the rules or “culture” and the employees follow it. Workplace culture is set by the employees, not the company. Company culture statements are toothless, their actual culture comes from their business practices. Not listening to the concerns of your employees speaks way louder than a statement about idealistic values.

And finding a new job or adjusting aren’t the only decisions the employees can make. One of the decisions the employees can make is to organize, maybe strike, and negotiate with the company to better working conditions. It’s not up to the company to dictate these things. We’re seeing it now with Apple employees calling out their culture.

I support the workers. Always. If they say that going back to the office will affect their quality of living, and they’ve proven it’s not necessary, I support their organizing around fighting back.

A healthy discussion is always good to get to air one's views. As you said, I disagree with your points above, but one answer does not fit all situations. There are too many (probably millions) of variations of workplaces to make a pat answer that applies to all. Therefore in discussing Apple, an employee, imo, either falls in line with the culture and workplace or the employee probably won't live up to their full potential. It has to be a fit from both sides, but Apple still hands out the paycheck.

If professional, exempt, employees want to strike like the UAW, they will lose as I'm guessing Apple has at at-will employment agreement. The employees (those that are professional, exempt) are certainly within their rights to "call-out" the company culture...but at the end of the day it doesn't mean they will have a job should they run afoul of their employer.

Support of "the workers" doesn't mean the workers are right and that Apple will capitulate. I too support their organizing and fighting back, but at the end of the day, if it interferes with their work, I can only believe they will be finding new jobs.

 

[Arran]

... but at the end of the day, if it interferes with their work, I can only believe they will be finding new jobs.

And that may be the best thing that could happen to them. Speaking from personal experience.

Right now is clearly a job-seeker's market (and I've seen a few in my time). Remember, talent has always had the upper-hand (but usually doesn't realize it!)

Talent is rare. Don't squander the opportunity.

 

[Arran]

There is nothing “outdated” about being around other people and collaborating in real life...

And there was nothing outdated about horses and buggies either.

Until Henry Ford came along.

Or vaudeville, until Marconi came along

Or MySpAcE! Until Facebook came along.

You gotta keep moving.

 

[venom600]

And that may be the best thing that could happen to them. Speaking from personal experience.

Right now is clearly a job-seeker's market (and I've seen a few in my time). Remember, talent has always had the upper-hand (but usually doesn't realize it!)

Talent is rare. Don't squander the opportunity.

That is patently false. There are a few very select positions in certain industries that have a lot of vacancies and few qualified to fill them where that may be the case, but that isn’t even close to being a significant percentage of the workforce. In a world where hundreds of people apply for the same job with more or less similar experience and skills, the employer has the upper hand. It’s even more true if you are in a position where you just need to work and can’t be picky. Most jobs aren’t union and everyone is replaceable. I’ve seen guys with this attitude come in and not make it through the quarter before they are dismissed.

 

[Arran]

That is patently false. There are a few very select positions in certain industries that have a lot of vacancies and few qualified to fill them where that may be the case, but that isn’t even close to being a significant percentage of the workforce. In a world where hundreds of people apply for the same job with more or less similar experience and skills, the employer has the upper hand. It’s even more true if you are in a position where you just need to work and can’t be picky. Most jobs aren’t union and everyone is replaceable. I’ve seen guys with this attitude come in and not make it through the quarter before they are dismissed.

I respectfully disagree. It is a job-seekers market right now. Employees want a better deal and are voting with their feet. It’s all over the news;

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2021/09/07/labor-day-2021-when-worker-shortage-end/5674223001/

U.S. hospitals hit with nurse staffing crisis as pandemic rages on

Many nurses are quitting because they are exhausted or demoralized. Others are leaving for lucrative jobs with travel nurse agencies.

www.nbcnews.com

Food industry workers recount what drove them to quit en masse this year

Toxic work environments, poor pay, and difficult customers prompted staff at restaurants, butcheries, and chain stores across the country to call it quits this year.

thecounter.org

The ‘Great Resignation' is coming. Why millions of employees want to switch jobs

The Microsoft 2021 Work Trend Index showed 41% of the global workforce are considering resigning this year

www.livemint.com

This is why your hourly workers aren’t coming back

Multiple industries are feeling the pain of The Great Resignation, but people working in traditionally in-person jobs consistently top the quitting leaderboard.

www.fastcompany.com

Big Tech is suffering from a 'Great Resignation' of workers, who say 'It's a good time to leave'

A confluence of factors have led the rank and file at Big Tech companies to leave what were coveted jobs a decade ago for the potential riches of startups...

www.marketwatch.com

American workers are quitting their jobs at record rates. Here's why

The pandemic inspired many American workers to leave their comfortable, stable jobs.

www.today.com

 

[I7guy]

And that may be the best thing that could happen to them. Speaking from personal experience.

Right now is clearly a job-seeker's market (and I've seen a few in my time). Remember, talent has always had the upper-hand (but usually doesn't realize it!)

Talent is rare. Don't squander the opportunity.

Talent like Steve Jobs or Tim Cook is rare or even Elon Musk. But don't get lulled into a false sense of the "talent is rare'. Talent abounds and it's up to the companies to identify and locate them. But if you are top talent and don't like where you are, there shouldn't be any issues getting a job. It's great for the top 1% of the top 1% in the job market. But that is not what this conversation is about.

Because as we can see, all talent is replaceable.

 

[jk73]

I respectfully disagree. It is a job-seekers market right now. Employees want a better deal and are voting with their feet. It’s all over the news;

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2021/09/07/labor-day-2021-when-worker-shortage-end/5674223001/

U.S. hospitals hit with nurse staffing crisis as pandemic rages on

Many nurses are quitting because they are exhausted or demoralized. Others are leaving for lucrative jobs with travel nurse agencies.

www.nbcnews.com

Food industry workers recount what drove them to quit en masse this year

Toxic work environments, poor pay, and difficult customers prompted staff at restaurants, butcheries, and chain stores across the country to call it quits this year.

thecounter.org

The ‘Great Resignation' is coming. Why millions of employees want to switch jobs

The Microsoft 2021 Work Trend Index showed 41% of the global workforce are considering resigning this year

www.livemint.com

This is why your hourly workers aren’t coming back

Multiple industries are feeling the pain of The Great Resignation, but people working in traditionally in-person jobs consistently top the quitting leaderboard.

www.fastcompany.com

Big Tech is suffering from a 'Great Resignation' of workers, who say 'It's a good time to leave'

A confluence of factors have led the rank and file at Big Tech companies to leave what were coveted jobs a decade ago for the potential riches of startups...

www.marketwatch.com

American workers are quitting their jobs at record rates. Here's why

The pandemic inspired many American workers to leave their comfortable, stable jobs.

www.today.com

Many of those groups made more money on unemployment, or unemployment plus some other under-the-table job. Restaurant workers aren’t suddenly worth a lot more money, nor did a bunch of better jobs suddenly pop up such that restaurant workers and school bus drivers have better options. Now that the unemployment gravy train has ended, reality is about to smack millions of people in the face.

 

[I7guy]

I respectfully disagree. It is a job-seekers market right now. Employees want a better deal and are voting with their feet. It’s all over the news;

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2021/09/07/labor-day-2021-when-worker-shortage-end/5674223001/

U.S. hospitals hit with nurse staffing crisis as pandemic rages on

Many nurses are quitting because they are exhausted or demoralized. Others are leaving for lucrative jobs with travel nurse agencies.

www.nbcnews.com

Food industry workers recount what drove them to quit en masse this year

Toxic work environments, poor pay, and difficult customers prompted staff at restaurants, butcheries, and chain stores across the country to call it quits this year.

thecounter.org

The ‘Great Resignation' is coming. Why millions of employees want to switch jobs

The Microsoft 2021 Work Trend Index showed 41% of the global workforce are considering resigning this year

www.livemint.com

This is why your hourly workers aren’t coming back

Multiple industries are feeling the pain of The Great Resignation, but people working in traditionally in-person jobs consistently top the quitting leaderboard.

www.fastcompany.com

Big Tech is suffering from a 'Great Resignation' of workers, who say 'It's a good time to leave'

A confluence of factors have led the rank and file at Big Tech companies to leave what were coveted jobs a decade ago for the potential riches of startups...

www.marketwatch.com

American workers are quitting their jobs at record rates. Here's why

The pandemic inspired many American workers to leave their comfortable, stable jobs.

www.today.com

True. More resumes are coming in. For the professional jobs we see a lot of resumes, but more bodies doesn’t mean more quality.

 

[DeepWebinar]

You can reject it all you want, but it varies company to company and team to team. In my tenure as a software engineer in small to large tech companies over the last 20+ years, I have not seen (yet) culture being set entirely by the employees. I figure this is primarily due to two reasons: (1) no one is irreplaceable and (2) paycheck comes top down. Sure, you can set some cultural expectations within your domain (such as happy hours, all hands meetings, mentorship programs, etc), but I think your expectations should be grounded.



Apple is the epitome of capitalism. At the end of the day, you can either follow their rules or expect consequences. Your choice.

Everything you said is wrong.

 

[Arran]

Responses like this is how I imagine there are people who not only work 2 jobs remotely, but also openly skive and feel utterly remorseless about it. They think the company owes them a living, and if they can't get what they want from their job, they take what they feel they are entitled to.

Go read this story of tech workers who secretly work multiple remote jobs

It’s a risky bet

www.theverge.com

I can only say, if I were a boss, I would have no desire to keep people with such an adversarial mindset around on my payroll, who are actively acting against the interests of my company, and I can only hope they do not have such a "us vs them" mindset in their next job where they think the company is constantly out to get them.

So senior corporate execs who openly serve on the boards of external companies is somehow different? That's the very definition of working 2 jobs. Quite often more than 2. It's a lucrative gravy train if you want to look at it that way.

Do you see that as a double standard? Or is it different in your eyes? If so, how?

 

[Abazigal]

So senior corporate execs who openly serve on the boards of external companies is somehow different? That's the very definition of working 2 jobs. Quite often more than 2. It's a lucrative gravy train if you want to look at it that way.

Do you see that as a double standard? Or is it different in your eyes? If so, how?

If everything is made clear right from the very start, I don't see the issue with that. Like you said, they are serving on multiple boards "openly".

From the article I linked, it's very clear that the people working 2 remote jobs are not capable of coping with the demands of juggling two jobs concurrently, and have to resort to outright lying and skiving just to get out of some of their responsibilities. And they have no shame about skipping meetings and pushing the work to other people and just creating more problems for everyone.

If there was nothing wrong with this, then I challenge these people to come clean and make it clear to their employers and co-workers up-front that they have more than one job, and be totally upfront when they are skipping one meeting in order to attend another meeting with another company.

Let's see how far this gets them, and how many bosses would okay with this sort of irresponsible behaviour.

 

[Arran]

If everything is made clear right from the very start, I don't see the issue with that. Like you said, they are serving on multiple boards "openly".

From the article I linked, it's very clear that the people working 2 remote jobs are not capable of coping with the demands of juggling two jobs concurrently, and have to resort to outright lying and skiving just to get out of some of their responsibilities. And they have no shame about skipping meetings and pushing the work to other people and just creating more problems for everyone.

If there was nothing wrong with this, then I challenge these people to come clean and make it clear to their employers and co-workers up-front that they have more than one job, and be totally upfront when they are skipping one meeting in order to attend another meeting with another company.

Let's see how far this gets them, and how many bosses would okay with this sort of irresponsible behaviour.

CEO’s and company execs can do it openly because they make the rules. Duh!

Who checks up on them that they’re doing a good job and giving value for money when their attention is spread across multiple gigs? It’s not like they fill in timesheets.

 

[Abazigal]

CEO’s and company execs can do it openly because they make the rules. Duh!

Who checks up on them that they’re doing a good job and giving value for money when their attention is spread across multiple gigs? It’s not like they fill in timesheets.

Read the article I linked.

Do you in good faith support the workers in what they are doing? I sure can’t.

 

[I7guy]

CEO’s and company execs can do it openly because they make the rules. Duh!

Who checks up on them that they’re doing a good job and giving value for money when their attention is spread across multiple gigs? It’s not like they fill in timesheets.

What? Board members can typically be on multiple boards…how many fortune ceos are part time ceos?