Apple Employees Internally Raising Concerns Over CSAM Detection Plans

[DanTSX]

Stop thinking about this system as something for child abuse. The simplest description is Government(s) specify forbidden files via a hash. Apple then must report users with those hash values to the Government(s).

Nailed it.

Apple won’t know what is on the “naughty file database”. They just perform the scan to match it.

 

[mikethemartian]

Sorry but this is tin foil hat level paranoia and why I can't take you naysayers seriously. You've turned Apple in to Big Brother in your imagination and trying to pass it off as truth. You're doing nothing to help your case and everything to make yourself seem like a lunatic.

Apple turned IBM into Big Brother in their imagination.

 

[rme]

If you want to check my phone for illegal content, get a warrant.

and then take a hike.

 

[DanTSX]

I think this only works if you have iCloud switched on btw.
So essentially you could just use another backup service for your photos (DropBox, Google etc..) and just not use the iCloud service.
Is that not good enough for you or your worried about the principal of it all?

(Also, remember that whatever backdoors are in software these companies by law will never tell you. Snowden demonstrated that a while back. All of the big companies were signed up).

The only way to be truly secure is to run an open source OS (e.g. linux) where you can view every line of code (or someone has done it) and then set up your own private backup services etc.. A bit of effort but worthwhile I suppose if you feel strongly about this stuff.

Those other services are already presumed to be doing evil things.

We expect Apple to hold a higher standard. And we are taking them up on it. They are getting resistance on this in the mainstream, not just here and other Apple-fan venues.

 

[UltimoInfierno]

Constitution of United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Only problem: That does not apply to more than 95% of the people living in this world.

The interesting thing: Apple already respects Chinese, Indian and Russian laws regarding data oversigt, so who'll believe that Tim will be able to control or prevent anything, that any government deems a "national interest" (in that case, many ordinary laws do not apply - not even inside the US ;-)

We live in interesting times (a variation on an old Chinese curse).

The only problem with that report from Apple is its completely untrue. It cannot accurately predict based on only have access to NCMEC database, as they would need a comprehensive database from all crime agencies, both in the USA and abroad. THEY DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THEM!

I'm glad employees are kicking off as they recognise that their future employment relies upon Apple's stance on privacy for users and ensuring surveillance doesn't take place, let alone Apple doing it!

More worrying is that this SURVEILLANCE is built into the operating system and operates on a USER'S HARDWARE prior to moving to iCloud. I can see many court cases here, as Apple will be expecting users who have paid for their hardware, who pay for the processing that comes with the machine, and also paying for the electricity of their equipment and effectively Apple are usurping that equipment etc., without the express permission of the user.

Mr Cook would have received my communication, so knows how I feel about it...

A fag packet idea in the name of child safety, whether it was well intentioned or a deliberate ploy with which to engage in surveillance I don't know, but I do know it is SURVEILLANCE, it is a breach of their espoused and much repeated comments on privacy and surveillance.

Apple: Stop this farce now, before it costs you a customer base.

When you get what you think is a lightbulb moment that turns out to be crap, its best not to go forward with it and then try and justify it, because the reasons its raised so many concerns, including may I add from certain agencies involved in fighting child abuse, is because apart from being surveillance, it doesn't work and will make the agencies entrusted in fighting these crimes have a much harder job, as those engaged in this awful child abuse will simply go underground, tor network, vpn and encrypted files.

This is nothing to do with child abuse, its SURVEILLANCE, and once you get round the emotive excuse for this, you should not hesitate to make your representations known to Apple, to your governments or even Trading associations.

Had my say, done what I can so far and my colleagues have done likewise.

Remember all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.

Its rather akin to a Minority Report situation. I can only reiterate my first post about this when the news came out.

First they came for the 'suspect' Children's Pictures
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Child Abuser

Then they came for the 'suspect' Adult pictures
And I did not speak out
Because my pictures were not those

Then they came for 'suspect' Animal Abuse pictures
And I did not speak out
Because I was not an Animal Abuser

Then they came for 'suspect' Law Breakers
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Law Breaker

Then they came to control Everyone's Data
And there was no one left who could speak out
Not even Me!

I agree wholeheartedly.

This poem "First they came" was originally created by Martin Niemöller (Lutheran Pastor in. Germany) in 1946:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/2019-01/First%20They%20Came%20by%20Martin%20Niemöller_0.pdf?VersionId=l6HOtWW1N8umC.ELxnQI6NpaAYbxRCJj

The pastor was a controversial figure, but that does not make his poem less true (I remember it being quoted by some americans during the crazy McCarthy scourge in the US).

Nothing has changed much, eh...

Regards

 

[PBG4 Dude]

That wasn't a random Physicist, that was Einstein.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

WW IV will be Keith Richards vs the crab people.

 

[DanTSX]

*Facepalm*

Don't trust the (i)Cloud. Don't use it.
There is no End-to-End-Encryption.
What about vulnerabilities like directory traversal?
Apple has experience with that:
2009-07-01 idisk.me.com
A directory traversal issue was addressed.

Anerkennungen bezüglich Apple-Webserver-Sicherheit

Apple veröffentlicht diesen Artikel, um allen zu danken, die potenzielle Sicherheitsprobleme auf unseren Webservern gemeldet haben. Unsere Danksagungen folgen, sobald das jeweilige Problem identifiziert und behoben wurde.

support.apple.com

No. We want to use iCloud. We are holding Apple responsible for this BS. We expect them to be better.

At least I don’t believe that Apple’s interest in this is organic, and that they are being pressured to implement this infrastructure. Otherwise, why would the “Government naughty file hash database” exist?

 

[ececlv]

Don't turn on iCloud Photo Library. But quite honestly, as all this detects is child pornography, it makes me wonder why you wouldn't want it turned on.

It is very simple. My device should not be searching my stuff looking to turn me in to the cops. Especially a device from a company that tells us privacy is a human right. This is crazy invasive. Imagine apples commercial showing how this works. — all the advertisers disappear but the men in black remain.

Most would be frustrated if this was done on server, but at least that would not be invasive.

 

[DanTSX]

WW IV will be Keith Richards vs the crab people.

Im fully expecting to see this on Netflix

 

[DanTSX]

Ugh. people don’t learn from history do you?

Wtf wake up people! Stop being sheep.

Ask questions! Ask why Apple suddenly became very concerned about CP. Ask why the govt “naughty file hash database” exists.

 

[ececlv]

This could go wrong very quickly. Here's a system that will potentially flag innocent users pictures of their children playing on a beach or paddling pool.....

Its worse than that. Since it is a black box secret, i just have to claim it flagged you. This stuff is so abhorrent that you will be vilified and no one will provide the evidence since it is illegal to look at.

 

[DanTSX]

Yeah because the FBI is weak in terms of preventing Apple from selling more phones if they don’t give in. But other countries are stronger in that standpoint.

There is more strong leverage beyond the FBI within the USA itself to push for this infrastructure.

What did Eisenhower try to warn us about again…..?????

 

[GBaughma]

Nailed it.

Apple won’t know what is on the “naughty file database”. They just perform the scan to match it.

There is the other aspect of this though... the "underage nudes" thing. If you're on a family plan, and you're under 18, and your iphone decides that you're showing too much skin, it tattles on you to your parents.

That's a whole different can of beans there... because that's not matching against any hash, that's examining your photos directly.

 

[UltimoInfierno]

I dont log in with my icloud on my mac, i always stay signed out unless I'm downloading something

Is your Mac connecting to the internet? Or can it connect to the Internet?

Regards

 

[barkomatic]

Which "Apple Employees" are complaining exactly? If they are in a technical role then there is credibility but if this is the marketing department complaining I don't care.

 

[randyhudson]

So Apple employees don't understand the difference between a checksum and AI image recognition?

 

[Topfry]

Apple employees are now joining the choir of individuals raising concerns over Apple's plans to scan iPhone users' photo libraries for CSAM or child sexual abuse material, reportedly speaking out internally about how the technology could be used to scan users' photos for other types of content, according to a report from Reuters.

According to Reuters, an unspecified number of Apple employees have taken to internal Slack channels to raise concerns over CSAM detection. Specifically, employees are concerned that governments could force Apple to use the technology for censorship by finding content other than CSAM. Some employees are worried that Apple is damaging its industry-leading privacy reputation.
Apple employees in roles pertaining to user security are not thought to have been part of the internal protest, according to the report.

Ever since its announcement last week, Apple has been bombarded with criticism over its CSAM detection plans, which are still expected to roll out with iOS 15 and iPadOS 15 this fall. Concerns mainly revolve around how the technology could present a slippery slope for future implementations by oppressive governments and regimes.

Apple has firmly pushed back against the idea that the on-device technology used for detecting CSAM material could be used for any other purpose. In a published FAQ document, the company says it will vehemently refuse any such demand by governments.
An open letter criticizing Apple and calling upon the company to immediately halt it's plan to deploy CSAM detection has gained more than 7,000 signatures at the time of writing. The head of WhatsApp has also weighed into the debate.

Article Link: Apple Employees Internally Raising Concerns Over CSAM Detection Plans

Exactly - its not the role of a product company to monitor or surveille its customers’ private data. Think of all the non illegal, yet private information/photos, that a third party at apple will review. Its a a well intentioned mis-step, but a mis-step nonetheless.

 

[DanTSX]

You had better get offline then and back to building your bunker...make sure you have your data-free cage like Gene Hackman built in Enemy Of The State so they can't track you.

Expected this reply.

I’ll give you a hand digging that hole for your head first.

You couldn’t be further from the truth. Imagine that.

Big tech and US agencies has been forced to admit more nefarious data collection within the past 6 months. Have you become so accustomed to intrusion to be indifferent to it? If so, don’t insult people that still give a **** about their identity.

 

[ececlv]

People like me? But the funny thing is, I've had people telling me we're on this slippery slope for more years than I care to remember but these "evil thing that 'they' will do next" just don't seem to happen. I guess that frog must be on a really slow boil.

I can't argue against what you think might happen next with CSAM as that's your personal perception. I just don't share that same view. Dismiss me as a naïve fool if that helps.

I dont find this a slippery slope. It IS an in illegal warrantees search. That is a problem all by it self. Im not worried about what if issues. The issue at hand is very bad all by itself. And the privacy company thinks its cool.

 

[GBaughma]

Ugh. people don’t learn from history do you?

Wtf wake up people! Stop being sheep.

Ask questions! Ask why Apple suddenly became very concerned about CP. Ask why the govt “naughty file hash database” exists.

You can guarantee the government has more "naughty file hash databases" than just CSAM.

I'm sure there's the "persons of interest hash database", the "insurgent file hash database"...

 

[DanTSX]

So Apple employees don't understand the difference between a checksum and AI image recognition?

Maybe they understand the bigger picture…..

 

[DanTSX]

People like me? But the funny thing is, I've had people telling me we're on this slippery slope for more years than I care to remember but these "evil thing that 'they' will do next" just don't seem to happen. I guess that frog must be on a really slow boil.

I can't argue against what you think might happen next with CSAM as that's your personal perception. I just don't share that same view. Dismiss me as a naïve fool if that helps.

The examples are out there. Most are congressional record.

 

[GBaughma]

I dont find this a slippery slope. It IS an in illegal warrantees search. That is a problem all by it self. Im not worried about what if issues. The issue at hand is very bad all by itself. And the privacy company thinks its cool.

You're right... it is an illegal, warrantless search. Unless you agree to it.
You don't get the option NOT to install iOS15... and I'm sure it's carefully outlined in the EULA... which, by the way, you have to accept if you want to use iOS15... and continue to be protected from hackers, bugs, have future software work, etc...

But... you're agreeing to it. The police can come to your house; if you invite them in, they don't need a warrant.

Apples EULA is the invitation that you're giving them.

 

[DanTSX]

Thank you. Someone who researched the technology and understands that Apple can't use it to flag naked photos your wife sent you or d!ck pics from your boyfriend.

if you researched the technology, you’d understand that they are not flagging pictures….

Here is a question for you. Can they flag any “pic” that matches the index database?

 

[Playfoot]

Tim Cook had a change of heart . . . .

************
There have been people that suggest that we should have a backdoor. But the reality is if you put a backdoor in, that backdoor’s for everybody, for good guys and bad guys… I think everybody’s coming around also to recognizing that any backdoor means a backdoor for bad guys as well as good guys. And so a backdoor is a nonstarter. It means we are all not safe… I don’t support a backdoor for any government, ever.


We do think that people want us to help them keep their lives private. We see that privacy is a fundamental human right that people have. We are going to do everything that we can to help maintain that trust. — Apple CEO Tim Cook, October 1, 2015
*************

I have written elsewhere, a backdoor is still a backdoor. Apple has been very compliant in other jurisdictions with respect to provider user information to dictatorships. Not to mention NSL's in the US.