If BT doesn't support lossless in the AirPod Pros, how would BT support lossless in the AirPods Max.
The AirPods Max supports lossless if you plug them in.
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Apple Engineer Addresses Lack of Lossless Support on New AirPods Pro
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The AirPods Max supports lossless if you plug them in.
Common sense. The vast majority of people have never listened to music on any truly outstanding hi-fi gear*. Ergo, they have no baseline 'standard' from which to draw comparisons. But people who work with sound for a living, do know what that baseline (or bassline!) should be, so they know how to master audio recordings well.
*By this, I don't necessarily mean über expensive stuff, but high quality equipment, placed in a carefully designed and equipped listening space (so not your average stereo in your average living room).
Lossless isn't 'standard' on wireless ear/headphones. But again; my point has been missed. Such audio equipment really is at the lower end of the scale, in terms of 'hi-fi', so it's very unlikely that such ear/headphones will be able to deliver the true benefits lossless audio would bring. Add in ANC, and it's even less beneficial. So for sure; lossless audio would be great if you already have high end ear/headphones or a hi-fi system, but if you're only listening via Airpods or Sony WFHMX10004KHDTVASCIIFIFA19THX1138 or whatever they're called, you won't be hearing any benefits lossless would bring. Because such equipment really isn't good enough. The electronic components aren't going to be anywhere near the quality of high end kit. So; not something to lose sleep over. As I've already said; including it is merely a marketing gimmick to get people to buy stuff.
It is standard on consumer playback devices, including wired headsets (and stereos and car radios..). Has been for over a decade.
It's not (yet) standard on BT, because this technology is developed at a snail's pace.
So, again, because I think many fans of lossy audio seem to not get the question - even though it has been asked many times in this thread:
What's the benefit of not using lossless audio, in this case stopping the development of BT so it won't get implemented?
So a) I don't know what you mean by 'fans of lossy audio', because that's just a nonsense, and b) we do get the question, it's just that you're not understanding the answer.
Nobody is 'stopping the development of BT'. Quite the opposite. Apple have decided not to implement 'lossless' in their Airpods, because of the reasons already explained at some length on here, and in much greater length on the rest of the internet.
Ok so. I have Apple Airpod Pro 2s. They are very good indeed. I also have a fairly decent hi-fi. That is superb (imo). As well as that, I own various other audio devices, including BT speakers, Homepods and various pairs of wired ear and headphones. The latter can all do 'lossless' audio. But here's the thing; they're not actually all that good. Cheap, basic kit. They work, they work just fine, but they're not great. They just do the job. Probs fine for listening somewhere quieter if Im not fussed about the audio quality (say a spoken word podcast or whatever). Now the Airpods are much better in terms of audio quality, despite being 'lossy'? BUT HOW?? I hear you scream. Because they're cheap and basic, and nowhere near as refined as the Airpods. That's why. So I can listen to an AIFF file, or even straight from a CD player, and they still don't sound as good as the APPs with their oh so inferior lossy audio.
I can hear more of the music with the APPs. But then; I can hear even more of the music through my hi-fi. I can't be schlapping my hi-fi around with me on the Tube and that though. So it's all about compromise. Leaving losseless audio out of Airpods is such a compromise, except that it isn't one that actually affects the sound quality.
So my question to you, would be 'why include something that is of no benefit, yet will cost more to incorporate?'
Hmm?
In the context of iPhones the primary benefits of AAC are less cellular data used when streaming and less SSD space for local storage. Now that the major music platforms offer lossless, I predict that BT will more quickly evolve to support higher data rates, or a new standard will be created.
All it means is the output between the amp and speaker driver is not compressed. It doesn’t mean the source isn’t compressed, nor does it mean the speaker driver is capable of playing the nuances.
And there are many technical considerations?
Higher costs, degraded battery life, bigger components housing more micro-chips, more heat generated? Those could be the downsides. The benefits are the opposite.
Doesn't have to do anything with compression. You can loose data without compression or you can compress without loosing information (e.g. alac/flac).
We are in 2022. I understand that a 2000 era MP3 player might need a faster CPU and drain it's battery quicker depending on the codec, but this doesn't make much of a difference nowadays.
Plus, you could make it user selectable.
Making it user selectable still means the downsides are still there even if not playing lossless. However incorporating lossless would have to make sense imo, in other words trade-offs would have to be examined.
You didn't provide an answer.
That question was already answered, I believe:
Incorporating lossless means you don't need a cable anymore if you want to listen on the go. That brings convenience. And the hardware cost is negligable, we already have wireless transmitters that can provide sufficent bandwidth. Somebody just has to write the software - and that's a bit tricky because it goes into the BT protocol stack. But I understand, that is not what you want to hear and you'll continue to find arguments against listening to lossless music because you seem to think that it has "no benefit" (and of course it does, I have heard compression artifacts both for lossy file formats and over bluetooth many times).
If cellular data is an issue, you would not be streaming.
And storage space isn't much of a consideration either. We got back from HDDs to SSDs for mobile music playing because it has gotten so cheap and plentiful.
Nobody has argued against listening to lossless music. Nobody. Why are you continuing to claim this nonsense?
Plenty of common sense regarding lossy v lossless music has been posted on this thread. Plenty. The fact is that for equipment such as Airpods, a decent 256 or 320kps audio file will be indistinguishable from a lossless file. This is why lossless over wireless, as current technology stands, is little more than a gimmick. Please try to understand this. You can claim all you like; science disagrees with you.
Back in the the day the above used to be called: SMOP. Simple matter of programming. If that is all it is it’s in the bag. Right?
this just isn’t true in the slightest, especially as car radios with cd players are becoming more and more rare in modern vehicles.
The majority of cars these days with CarPlay support and such are using… you guessed it… Bluetooth. Which Is lossy.
Also, throughout the 2000s and the first half of the 2010s, the majority of people were listening to music on devices that were literally called MP3 players.
Not to mention, iTunes, the biggest digital music store, and the one that almost every iPod customer used to purchase music, still to this day doesn’t, and never has sold lossless audio files. It’s all 256KBPS AAC, which is exactly the same as the AirPods are now.
Amazons digital music store was basically exclusively lossy MP3s, even to this day.
Spotify, the biggest music streaming service in the world, doesn’t even have lossless support. The highest they go is 320KBPS.
Any music uploaded to video sharing sites like YouTube, another huge way people have been listening to music over the past decade and a half, is also all lossy.
Lossless digital audio is absolutely not the standard.
In my part of the world, MP3 never went away. MP3 players were a big thing in the world of people around me, until mobile phones could play your music.
AirPods are never going to get lossless due to you know...physics. Lossless needs a solid connection, and no improvements over bluetooth will fix that. You want lossless on AirPods Max? Then the headphones need a wired aux mode where it can get power from the aux port, and the iPhone and iPad need to BRING BACK THE HEADPHONE JACK.
Seriously there's no reason for the Maxes not to have a wired aux mode when every other bluetooth headphone has it, so when the batteries of those overpriced headphones do eventually no longer hold a charge they're still usable. And the iPad Pros have the space to has a DAC and a headphone jack, yet it doesn't, while the thin as hell Macbooks do.
Seriously there's no reason for the Maxes not to have a wired aux mode when every other bluetooth headphone has it, so when the batteries of those overpriced headphones do eventually no longer hold a charge they're still usable. And the iPad Pros have the space to has a DAC and a headphone jack, yet it doesn't, while the thin as hell Macbooks do.
Or you would be streaming AAC.
I would argue that people who favor lossless also have a large music library and 512GB+ iPhones, especially the Pro and Pro Max, are not cheap.
Cellular data and smaller SSDs are the reason why people wouldn't use lossless.
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I just started using AirPods a lot and picked up the latest one. The Active Noise Cancelation is interesting in what it does and doesn't cancel out. Adaptive Cancelation doesn't seem to do much of anything even wearing them for awhile in one place so they have time adapt. The Active Noise Cancelation varies from cancelling too much to why aren't you canceling that rumble. I noticed the other day while listening to a recorded masterclass that Active Cancelation was not only canceling sound in my environment it was canceling sounds in the environment the masterclass was recorded in. The person in the masterclass was alone in a room with a fair amount of hard surfaces so a bit of room sound coming into the microphone. I switched on Active Cancelation and the room sounds on the recording went away too.
An Apple engineer has addressed the lack of lossless audio support in the second-generation AirPods Pro in a new interview.
Current Bluetooth technology in the AirPods lineup means that Apple's audio products do not support Apple Music Lossless audio. Apple has previously hinted that it may develop its own codec and connectivity standard that builds on AirPlay and supports higher quality audio streaming, but so far has not made any such move.
Apple Music offers lossless streaming which is 24-bit and up to 48KHz, and high-res lossless which goes up to 192KHz and requires an external digital-to-analog converter.
In an interview with What Hi-Fi?, Apple engineer Esge Andersen, who works on the company's acoustic team, said that Apple does not believe that current Bluetooth technology is a limiting factor in audio quality for the AirPods. Anderson added that even with current Bluetooth technology and codec standards, Apple can still make improvements in audio quality while the company's focus remains on reliability.
During the interview, Anderson also offered an interesting look into how Apple developed the new second-generation AirPods Pro and how it validates sound quality. Anderson revealed that Apple has a panel of "sound experts" that offer Apple's engineers feedback on audio quality. "And at the end of the day, there is somewhat of a compromise, because you can't make it perfect for everybody yet," he said.
One of the most considerable improvements with the new second-generation AirPods Pro is better Active Noise Cancellation. Apple says that ANC on the new AirPods Pro is up to 2x better than before. Anderson said Apple was pushed to make this large improvement because it wanted "to give everybody an AirPods Max in their pocket."
Article Link: Apple Engineer Addresses Lack of Lossless Support on New AirPods Pro
The funny one was during listening to the masterclass I need to use my bathroom. I finish and flush the toilet and can see the water swirling, but no water sound Active Cancelation was removing it. Then I turn on the faucet to wash my hand and that water sound was coming through. The one sound Active Cancellation doesn't get is my air conditioner which is a bit loud. I listen to things with the AirPods and Active Cancelation and the air conditioner kicks on and the sound never give canceled out even after a couple minutes. So hard to figure out what Active Cancelation considers noise and what it doesn't consider noise.
They do have wired lossless.
The iPads are thinner than the MacBooks, but yeah there is no good reason for the iPads (except for thickness maybe) not to have a headphone jack.
I usually use a UE Boom BT speaker and I know for a fact that the lossless files sound better than the regular AAC files when streamed to it. I'm sure the difference is more pronounced on a higher quality speaker.
A fact is something that is provable. So; go ahead. I'm sure we'd all be very interested in seeing your results.
I don't care enough about your opinion to bother proving something that I can reliably reproduce.
Besides, the only way for me to demonstrate that lossless sounds better streamed to my BT speaker is to have you sitting next to me.