Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Engineer Addresses Lack of Lossless Support on New AirPods Pro
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
No; you could set up a proper scientific test, using some proper audio analysis gear, and using a group of test subjects for the human response. You cannot simply state something as 'fact', without be able to demonstrably prove it. From what you're telling us, we have no way of verifying it at all, do we? We don't know what type of AAC file you used, or if your encoding was any good, or anything.
I tested it with a variety of Apple Music files (the same songs in both AAC and Lossless) downloaded to my computer and streamed to the speaker.
Like I said, I don't care enough about proving this to someone on the internet to do all that. So you believe what you want, and I'll know what I can reliably reproduce.
Last edited:
AirPlay 2 can use ALAC via Wi-Fi, you just need enough bandwidth and a stable connection to transport lossless audio. And that is an issue via Bluetooth. But a wired connection is not needed, of course it is more robust than a wireless connection but not really needed.
If not for music, what do you imagine that lossless is for? Perfect audio quality on news podcasts?
This problem will never be fixed with an ipad or iphone. Idevices can only handle one form of audio stream, you can't listen to music and use safari without your music getting paused every ten seconds.
This is why we need dedicated music devices and they just killed the ipod, best thing would be feature wifi and bluetooth headphones
This is why we need dedicated music devices and they just killed the ipod, best thing would be feature wifi and bluetooth headphones
Apple needs to get a better "panel of "sound experts"". Or the "sound experts" are just telling Apple what Apple wants to hear. A lot of that happens in large corporations.
You mean flawed "Double-blind tests"? I've never seen one yet, done correctly. Please point one out.
I am aware that the Red Book audio CD specification is 1,411,200 bps. But I have ripped CDs that exceed that threshold thus my equivocation. Many CD's don't hit the maximum rate. Have a lot in the 800-900 range.
Thanks. A knowledgeable source with some interesting insights such as training and experience can overcome lapses in quality. I can relate to that in the sense that one way I recognized a quality recording is listening to drum casing vibration sounds which don't show in lower bitrate recordings.
He doesn't say, unless I missed it, that the master recordings which they are using are in those lower bitrate ranges, nor that they worked with the compressed tracks. Some examples where the mastering definite was not done using compressed sources.
Moving Pictures: Rush's 1981 Masterpiece Gets its Due in Atmos Page 2
Recording and Remixing Revolver Page 4
Paul, of course, plays the explosive guitar solo, instead of George. That section was copied and added to the tail end of the song, replacing the fade-out that had been tracked originally. I’m Only Sleeping
"I’ve worked on many classical music albums, and the 96kHz sampling rate is considered a minimum standard in that world and in fact a number of my albums actually started in the exotic DXD/DSD formats."
If You Are Mixing Dolby Atmos For Apple Music - Read This Now | Production Expert
These are the early days of immersive music streaming, and there are many questions about Spatial Audio coming from both consumers and professionals. Nathaniel Reichman doesn’t claim to have all the answers, but he has already mixed and mastered several albums in Spatial Audio and has learned from t
www.pro-tools-expert.com
From the Grammy recording Academy:
"However, even though 48 kHz/20-bit audio quality is technically hi-res audio, the recommended minimum resolution for a recording project is 48 kHz/24-bit PCM."
Source: RECOMMENDATIONS FOR HI-RESOLUTION MUSIC PRODUCTION
This used to be publicly available but it has now been updated and the URL I have is invalid. Luckily I saved the source.
As for the NPR test there are a lot of posts which use it as evidence that there is no difference between compressed and lossless. Contrast with this study which found that people can hear the difference. Note that it emphasizes the importance of experience:
"All 18 published experiments for which sufficient data could be obtained were included, providing a meta-analysis involving over 400 participants in over 12,500 trials. Results showed a small but statistically significant ability of test subjects to discriminate high resolution content, and this effect increased dramatically when test subjects received extensive training."
Although I don't do well on the NPR test I do sense quality differences for reasons I don't totally understand, particularly since I, like the engineers in the video, can't hear the highest frequencies. Was listening to a Carnegie re-opening Beethoven #9 on cable but the sound was so bland that I switched to my DTS-MA recording which was exponentially better. Suppose that has been my training, listening to a lot of DTS-MA musical soundtracks, so that I really don't like listening to the same tracks in lower bitrates.
But the point is, that this 'test' is purely anecdotal; nobody else can verify it. So we have nothing but your word for it. The problem with this, is that lots of actual scientific tests have revealed that most people cannot reliably tell the difference between MP3 and Lossless files. Many people claim to be able to tell the difference, but their claims cannot be verified. So, we'll stick with the science.
It's pointless you even saying this. All you are doing is submitting unverifiable subjective experience, that can easily be ignored. As long as you understand that, we're all good.
Bear in mind also, that your 'test' was conducted using a low-grade speaker, the UE Boom. This is what raised my initial scepticism. I'm pretty confident you can't hear a difference between lossless and AAC, whatever you may claim,, unless your AAC file was badly encoded or at a low bitrate. I'm not even sure a UE boom can deliver lossless audio. Can it? Can even this be verified?
Anyway. People are free to believe what they want. Belief is different to knowledge though.
I DJ as well, and I can hear the difference between AAC and lossless when played over a club audio system.
But that's not what I'm talking about here. What I said is that lossless (regular Apple lossless not Apple's high-res lossless) sounds a bit better when streamed to my BT speaker.
MP3 is a Compressed Audio Format, meaning it definitely looses alot of information while saving audio in that format.
why do u think music producers don't use MP3 Format in the Studio Production.
The point is it depends on the speaker you are listening from. Or said another way the sound quality is as good as the weakest link in the setup. I agree that people who are trained and who do not have hearing impediments can hear the difference between the two on appropriate equipment.
Most people need optimal listening conditions and very good hardware to discern the difference between high-quality lossy files and lossless. Lossless is good for having as your archived music in case you want to transcode, etc. (I rip all my stuff using ALAC) but just like with the vinyl versus digital stuff it's really down to placebo effect and subjective tastes.
This being a good point. You aren't performing a blind experiment and are going to let your biases sway your opinion.
There's plenty of online lossless A/B tests out there, and the results are pretty definitive. People can't tell with any great accuracy across a swath of tracks. The days of bad 128KBps MP3s are largely in the rearview mirror.
Asking the other club employees which track sounds better is a blind test. They picked lossless 100% of the time.
You keep banging the same drum, but I'm not not referring to that drum.
What I actually said is that AM lossless sounds better streamed to my BT speaker, not that I can hear the difference between AAC and ALAC.
So you are saying that people who were very familiar with the songs I played can't tell if one version sounds better? Most people cant when listening at moderate volumes to songs they are unfamiliar with, but powerful amps and speakers stress audio files and reveal compression artifacts.
In this case it was 100% accurate because I was there conducting the test and you were not.
Where are your A/B tests in a loud dance club environment?
By the same token, many people can't tell the difference in an A/B test between good and excellent speakers despite excellent speakers provably sounding better.
Last edited:
Gee, how will I ever survive your not believing me.
PS. No one said they were "sooo" much better.
Last edited:
I gather your point but consider - lightning/USB out can go to another source that engages as a DAC to the headphone. In some instances, a DAC may be placed within the cable itself. The iPhone is capable of sending the info out from its lightning port.
Isn’t it funny how upset people get talking about sound?
Do you enjoy your hifi setups where you can listen to pristine sound? If so, I’m so happy for you.
Do you enjoy your APP1/2 or APM? I’m so happy for you.
I’d rather be listening to sound than arguing about it.
Still, it’s fun to watch the fight. Have at it!
To be fair, I’m jamming out on my APP2, and I was just using my APM. They are two of my favorite products I’ve ever owned, but my experience is purely subjective. No one can say, “you don’t enjoy them!” Pleasure principle, I’m afraid.
I hope you enjoy whatever you’re listening to using whatever equipment and whatever codec. Happy holidays!
Do you enjoy your hifi setups where you can listen to pristine sound? If so, I’m so happy for you.
Do you enjoy your APP1/2 or APM? I’m so happy for you.
I’d rather be listening to sound than arguing about it.
Still, it’s fun to watch the fight. Have at it!
To be fair, I’m jamming out on my APP2, and I was just using my APM. They are two of my favorite products I’ve ever owned, but my experience is purely subjective. No one can say, “you don’t enjoy them!” Pleasure principle, I’m afraid.
I hope you enjoy whatever you’re listening to using whatever equipment and whatever codec. Happy holidays!
