Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Not sure why Apple has struggled so much with this. How did AT&T manage to get U-Verse up and running with local channels all over the U.S.?

U-Verse started beta testing in 2005, and started really launching in 2006. By 2010 it was only available in 2.8 million households (and by the end of 2011, 30 million, which I believe it roughly stands today.)

Apple TV's streaming service will likely be available to anyone in the US with an sufficent Internet connection (there's something like 92 million households with "broadband" Internet in the US, with something like 115 million total households). It's a completely different scale, particularly if you have to deal with local station entities, particularly ones not actually owned by the network, hence the value of the article.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mtc44
For those that want a DVR option. As yourself why.
1) Watch a TV Show on your schedule
2) SKIP Commercials
3) ????

A well done "on demand commercial free" streaming service much like Netflix, HBO and Showtime eliminate's the need for a DVR. Hulu is close but they need a commercial free tier. For all of you "save the planet" types, think of the savings of replacing all of the equipment with small hockey puck type devices (or built into the smart tv) and everything was on demand.

The ability to D/L the show and watch it without an internet connection and away form home, ala TIVO.
 
Apple TV's streaming service will likely be available to anyone in the US with an sufficent Internet connection (there's something like 92 million households with "broadband" Internet in the US, with something like 115 million total households). It's a completely different scale, particularly if you have to deal with local station entities, particularly ones not actually owned by the network, hence the value of the article.

And therein lies the rub, as internet providers institute caps on data usage. Since Apple will now be using your internet connection and data, users may quickly find out that heavy streaming comes at an additional cost for data from their internet provider. cable companies will essentially shift to making money off the pipe as they lose subscribers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ssgbryan
Right and that's what's coming... again and again but we keep revolving our al-a-carte cost thinking around Netflix at $9/month. It can't stay there "as is". Just go to the math...
When reality sets in (when Netflix has to start actually covering the cost of the content with income) I picture Netflix adding tiers as they probably need the $9 number to keep enticing new subscribers. Content owners demanding prices beyond what can fit into the $9 tier will be offered in higher-priced tiers. In short, there's not enough revenue in $9 to go around. The costs far exceed the income. That can't last. So anyone pretending that $9 is representative of how al-a-carte can be for all is buying into an illusion of how pricing has been for the smallish crowd of earliest adopters (of cord-cutting). Netflix is a massively successful stock story... but eventually it has to actually make real money in the calculation of revenue - costs = profit. While it's able to artificially seem successful, we are easily fooled into believing that we too can have everything we want to watch in a Netflix-service like way at a Netflix-like (dirt cheap) price.

Your math makes sense, but I'm still of the opinion is somebody (Apple, Netflix, etc.) is able to put everything under one umbrella, then people will pay a premium for it. I think one of the biggest problems with getting cord-cutting to become more widely adopted has to do with the fact that you go to Netflix for some content, iTunes for other, Fox Now for other, and then your Plex server for the rest. It doesn't pass the girlfriend test, let alone the parent test or the grandparent test.

Once everything is a few clicks away, people will pay a premium for the service and the value it adds.
 
I agree. Its the number that some of us assign to "premium" that is the problem. Look through this thread. I've already seen multiple posts of people looking for everything they want for a few dollars a channel or $10 or $15/month.

I can definitely see a benefit of the above and it can justify a premium. However, I think people's concept of what "premium" would actually be is skewed much too low by Netflix pricing, which is part of how "we" get to a concept of getting everything "we" want (sometimes paired with "commercial free") for a fraction of what we pay now. THAT, I just don't see. My guess at a masses adoption of some "new model" premium is likely to start north of $100/month, more if it is also commercial-free.

Of course, as is now, that doesn't mean EVERYONE would have to pay $100/month: some would take minimum offerings for much less, others would take add-ons for much more. But with the "as is" model working at about $65/month per household and with the "as is" commercial revenue subsidy generating about $55/month per household, I expect any "new model" price modeling to fully make up for that combination and then some.

Else, if a new model knocks a lot of revenue out of the existing model, something else has to give. What gives? Quality and breadth & depth of programming seems like it would have to fall down to a new revenue model that fits the haircut some of us keep thinking we want the industry to take... a "be careful what you wish for" scenario if one simply thinks it through beyond our own self-interest as consumers.
 
And therein lies the rub, as internet providers institute caps on data usage. Since Apple will now be using your internet connection and data, users may quickly find out that heavy streaming comes at an additional cost for data from their internet provider. cable companies will essentially shift to making money off the pipe as they lose subscribers.

The telcos will always get theirs no doubt, however it's already started to shifted in my area, the big telco here offers essentially a light hotel package (Local Channels, HBO, a couple non-sports cable channels and 105 Mbps Internet for $5 more a month then what you can get 105Mbps Internet for ($15 for HD of course, it wouldn't be a cable provider without an insane "HD access fee"). For $5 more a month getting a box you don't even use but provides access to HBO GO and some watch on demand shows it's certainly a blow against paying more for local channels through Apple's possible service.
 
I cut cable more than 7 years ago. No, it wasn't the selection of channels that made me cut it, it was the shoddy service. The last year I started getting a different charge every month. Each one higher and higher. I called several times, they would lower next month's payment, up again next month, even higher than before. It was a constant aggravation. The reps would deny they ever reduced my bill at anytime. They had the gall to tell me that I had been paying $120.00 every month, I must have been confused.

I cut the aggravation.
 
A service that gave me streaming access to the complete iTunes library of music, audiobooks, books, podcasts, tv and movies would interest me at $15 per month.

What I'd really like is a hybrid service: if I spend $15 on iTunes content, I am granted streaming for all of iTunes for one month from the date of purchase.

Since music is already sorted you want TV, movies, books & audio books for another $5/month.
 
Finland's not a key market, the US is, so you'll have to wait for Apple to work where the money is.

Well that's become more than obvious within the last couple of years. We get all the new stuff with a delay if we get it at all. Unless you're talking about price hikes, of course. Being a 2nd class customer with premium class prices is getting boring.
 
Do we need local tv stations in the U.S. in the style of "NBC Channel 4"?

It seems like we don't, except maybe for local news. But that could easily be an app or a website.
 
Look at this crap... There are hundreds of these stupid channels and I have to scroll past them like SPAM in my guide. And even if I hide them using a favorites list (which mysteriously disappears periodically) I have dozens of PPV channel banners that take their place. And I pay $150/month for this! How much money does DTV need to make from me, that they fill the airwaves with this junk? I understand that launching satellites isn't a cheap thing, but this old model is ripe for disruption, and if the cable providers try to use their strong arm tactics and buying out of content companies (ie. Comcast owning NBC/Universal) to limit our options then the FCC needs to step in.

Apple, or anyone, please fix this crap and take my $150/month. It's not about the price, it's about being locked into this old model of wading through a guide-full of SPAM.

DTV.png
 
Go to YouTube. Content retailing at that kind of price is going to have to be created by amateurs much like content you see on YouTube.

The whole industry is built atop a revenue model of about $70/month per household PLUS about $55/month per household in subsidy (paid for by commercials). That's about $125 per household. Any new model that is intended to replace that model will need to show everyone beyond us consumers how they are going to at least replace that level of revenue (but likely increase it; else, why change).

We're already seeing clear examples of how channels are going to be priced: CBS at $6/month, Showtime at $10/month, HBO at $15/month. I saw a story the other day that suggested ESPN al-a-carte would be priced at around $30/month (that's hard to imagine but that's what I saw). Found one cut of that http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/a_la_carte_espn_would_cost_30_a_month.html but I remember seeing the same $30 price on a site like Marketwatch.com or similar.

The point is that all of the other players have zero motivation to give us everything we want while giving themselves huge revenue haircuts. I'd love to see your wish become reality too but none of the other links in the chain are motivated.

Here's an interesting WSJ article "Cord-Cutters Beware" that talks to this point pretty well: http://www.wsj.com/articles/prices-add-up-with-a-la-carte-tv-1413501679


$70 a month is for hundreds of channels. reason would imply that for 1 channel (say AMC) should be $1-$3 a month.
HBO has always been around $15 as an add-on so that is no shocker.
Crackle is already free... I don't see why say AMC can't sell their channel for a $1.99 a month + ads subscription.
 
  • Like
Reactions: harley3k
I know I don't. But I also couldn't care less about local stations. I guess the appeal is the watching local news?
And a lot of sporting events not on cable.
You wouldn't be able to FIND my antenna even if I told you I had one and where it is. It's not 1968 anymore ;)
of course. It is in your attic. Unless you are like countless millions of americans who live in condo/apartments. Then what? An antenna by a window? Yeah, right....
 
Apple ABSOLUTELY MUST make this BETTER than cable! NO COMMERCIALS/ADS! PERIOD. ...Netflix is without commercials...and THAT is why it is the most popular subscription service!!

Many reading this may not remember or be old enough to know, when Cable TV started, you paid for TV that was without commercials, and that is what we need to go back to...pay for TV, no commercials...free TV, have to put up with commercials. End of discussion.

It kills me that people don't notice how they somehow slipped in commercials over the years. Yes that was the premise of cable. You pay for programming without commercials. Originally it was only the over the air content that had commercials. I have no idea how they got away with adding in advertisements. It's why I don't have cable. I'm not getting what I pay for.
 
$70 a month is for hundreds of channels. reason would imply that for 1 channel (say AMC) should be $1-$3 a month.
HBO has always been around $15 as an add-on so that is no shocker.
Crackle is already free... I don't see why say AMC can't sell their channel for a $1.99 a month + ads subscription.

Because you're setting the price that way you want it. And you're deducing that price by applying intuition to a concept that if $70 can pay for hundreds of channels, certainly a single channel can cost a tiny fraction of $70. Many of the hundreds of channels "we" never watch are not there because no one watches them. But, more importantly, the commercials that run on those (subjectively) undesirable channels throws lots of money into the model that we don't pay for in our subscription fee. That money flows to the Studio and the Studio uses some of that money to procure and make the programming that "we" do watch. Cut their revenue throat by killing off all that commercial revenue and you are basically expecting AMC to keep up the good work with less programming and original programming development. That likely affects the shows you do like to watch on AMC.

In other words, that we pay a faction of our $70 for channels we like now (like AMC) and hundreds of channels we don't want DOES NOT mean that that fraction covers all the costs of the channel... such that if we got our al-a-carte wish, the channel could just keep cranking out the new content and procuring it's content already in the can (like movies shot long ago or Crackle content).

As things are right now, the commercials are very important to the Studios that make the content. Kill 5 channels in AMC's bundle because we only like AMC and you kill 5 channels running commercials that you may never see that help make AMC cost whatever it costs now.

To keep it all high quality... to keep the breadth & depth of the new programming coming... any new model must replace the revenues of the "as is" model. Else, that quality or breadth & depth of programming must adjust to match up with the revenue hair cut we think we want.

Suppose you are representative of everyone. You want AMC and maybe 14 other channels out of the hundreds that now cost $70/month. So all of us cut our bill from $70 to $14/month. At the same time, we're killing huge subsidy revenues too because all the channels that formally made a lot of money on their commercials are killed off by our group decision. So the Studios lose 80% of total subscriber revenue and at least a similarly high percentage of all commercial revenues. Nevertheless, we still expect quality of what we will get on our new package to stay as high, the breadth & depth of programming we like to keep on coming AND brand new programming we'll like in the future to also keep flowing. How does that happen?

Changing the example to better illustrate the point: I want all my future Apple stuff for 80% off of what it costs me now. And I want future iPhones to lose 80% of their subsidy revenue from AT&T, Verizon, etc. But I expect Apple to just keep on cranking out all of their products at the same quality and same breadth & depth of offerings. And I expect Apple to keep innovating new stuff too. How can Apple do that under those conditions? Any time any industry suffers a MASSIVE, sustained revenue haircut, it can't keep cranking things out as before (see the fracking U.S. oil industry as a very recent example, and that wasn't even 80%).

If we get our wish for a huge price discount while still getting what we think we want, I think quality must fall to align with the new revenue model we demanded. We already have video programming made at a steep discount without professional actors, producers, writers, etc. It's called YouTube. In the existing model, cheaper programming tends to be reality shows. That's the future of television if we all get a massive discount in our TV bill AND kill off the huge subsidy of commercials running on channels we never watch.
 
Last edited:
And a lot of sporting events not on cable. of course. It is in your attic. Unless you are like countless millions of americans who live in condo/apartments. Then what? An antenna by a window? Yeah, right....

HOA's can't block condo/apartment/townhowse owners ability to receive TV signals over the air. FTC law trumps HOA rules. See OTARD: https://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule adopted in the late 1990's.

Apartment renters have fewer options but it's much easier for them to move if they want to take advantage of OTA signals.
 
Last edited:
Look at this crap... There are hundreds of these stupid channels and I have to scroll past them like SPAM in my guide. And even if I hide them using a favorites list (which mysteriously disappears periodically) I have dozens of PPV channel banners that take their place. And I pay $150/month for this!

View attachment 568691

And the saddest part is it's still better then Comcast ;).
 
I don't get the whole skinny cable-like package thing. Two channels I watch frequently are Food Network and Cooking Channel. If they're not part of Apple's service it's useless to me. Why not then just get the cheaper cable or satellite tier that will most likely have more channels than TV will be offering. And once you subscribe to TV, Netfilx, HBO, Showtime, etc. it's not much cheaper than cable bundles are now. Will this TV offering allow us to watch live TV anywhere we want on our iOS or Macs? With DirecTV you can watch some channels live on your device (without needing to be on the same wifi network as your receiver) but not many. And certainly not any local affiliates or ESPN.

I've curtailed my time with the Food Channel and the Cooking Channel since they've become the Food Game Show channel and the Celebrity Cooking Channel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benjamin Frost
Not sure why Apple has struggled so much with this. How did AT&T manage to get U-Verse up and running with local channels all over the U.S.?

AT&T Uverse is just another cable tv provider (even though their network is IP based). I hope Apple doesn't duplicate the same model. What is the difference then between cable TV and AppleTV?
 
Because you're setting the price that way you want it. And you're deducing that price by applying intuition to a concept that if $70 can pay for hundreds of channels, certainly a single channel can cost a tiny fraction of $70. Many of the hundreds of channels "we" never watch are not there because no one watches them. But, more importantly, the commercials that run on those (subjectively) undesirable channels throws lots of money into the model that we don't pay for in our subscription fee. That money flows to the Studio and the Studio uses some of that money to procure and make the programming that "we" do watch. Cut their revenue throat by killing off all that commercial revenue and you are basically expecting AMC to keep up the good work with less programming and original programming development. That likely affects the shows you do like to watch on AMC.

In other words, that we pay a faction of our $70 for channels we like now (like AMC) and hundreds of channels we don't want DOES NOT mean that that fraction covers all the costs of the channel... such that if we got our al-a-carte wish, the channel could just keep cranking out the new content and procuring it's content already in the can (like movies shot long ago or Crackle content).

As things are right now, the commercials are very important to the Studios that make the content. Kill 5 channels in AMC's bundle because we only like AMC and you kill 5 channels running commercials that you may never see that help make AMC cost whatever it costs now.

To keep it all high quality... to keep the breadth & depth of the new programming coming... any new model must replace the revenues of the "as is" model. Else, that quality or breadth & depth of programming must adjust to match up with the revenue hair cut we think we want.

Suppose you are representative of everyone. You want AMC and maybe 14 other channels out of the hundreds that now cost $70/month. So all of us cut our bill from $70 to $14/month. At the same time, we're killing huge subsidy revenues too because all the channels that formally made a lot of money on their commercials are killed off by our group decision. So the Studios lose 80% of total subscriber revenue and at least a similarly high percentage of all commercial revenues. Nevertheless, we still expect quality of what we will get on our new package to stay as high, the breadth & depth of programming we like to keep on coming AND brand new programming we'll like in the future to also keep flowing. How does that happen?

Changing the example to better illustrate the point: I want all my future Apple stuff for 80% off of what it costs me now. And I want future iPhones to lose 80% of their subsidy revenue from AT&T, Verizon, etc. But I expect Apple to just keep on cranking out all of their products at the same quality and same breadth & depth of offerings. And I expect Apple to keep innovating new stuff too. How can Apple do that under those conditions? Any time any industry suffers a MASSIVE, sustained revenue haircut, it can't keep cranking things out as before (see the fracking U.S. oil industry as a very recent example, and that wasn't even 80%).

If we get our wish for a huge price discount while still getting what we think we want, I think quality must fall to align with the new revenue model we demanded. We already have video programming made at a steep discount without professional actors, producers, writers, etc. It's called YouTube. In the existing model, cheaper programming tends to be reality shows. That's the future of television if we all get a massive discount in our TV bill AND kill off the huge subsidy of commercials running on channels we never watch.


Thanks for your detailed response. I admit I know basically nothing about the TV business.

That said, lets keep AMC as the example here. if AMC gets 10 million viewers a month, thats 29,900,000 dollars a month not counting ad revenue.
Do they even make that now from their TV channel? as far as the other channels that are bundled with it not making money shouldn't be AMCs problem.

Honestly, at $2.99 a month I think AMC can easily get 20-30 million monthly subscribers. we are talking 100 million a month, billion+ a year not counting ad revenue.
 
Sling TV, Netflix streaming/discs, Hulu Plus on occasion and I'm saving 35-40 dollars a month and hit pretty much every channel I desire. Models will change, paradigms will shift. Big cable can try to stick to archaic, old-school business models while trying to make the same/more money all they want. It's not an economic reality going forward. Record companies tried that too, hindsight is 20/20. Those who do not learn from history...

The ground is shifting and will continue to do so, and new thinking and models will continue to evolve, despite some armchair "experts" on here thinking they know where it's all going to land, no one knows or will know for some time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Robin4
A service that gave me streaming access to the complete iTunes library of music, audiobooks, books, podcasts, tv and movies would interest me at $15 per month.

What I'd really like is a hybrid service: if I spend $15 on iTunes content, I am granted streaming for all of iTunes for one month from the date of purchase.

Why not just ask them to give away the entire store. That is a ridiculously low price for all of that content.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.