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Apple Event on Thursday May 18th, 2006?
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Yawn....
Please wake me when this nonsense is over.
The best news would be:
- New 64-bit MacBook on Tuesday, 15 August.
Anything sooner is Apple just trying to drain your checkbooks with soon-to-be-obsolete technology.
Just say NO! Wait for Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest...
Please wake me when this nonsense is over.
The best news would be:
- New 64-bit MacBook on Tuesday, 15 August.
Anything sooner is Apple just trying to drain your checkbooks with soon-to-be-obsolete technology.
Just say NO! Wait for Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest...
Ah The Joy Apple And Edu...
I really hope they release these babies soon....
Apple are doing 6 months interest free purchase on all Mac's for students in the UK, but the offer ends 31st May. If I can get through my purchase before then..I'm sorted!! £150pm (assuming it will cost £900) is sweet!
PS: They also seem to have adopted this policy whereby AppleCare is available for £60+VAT 1/3 of the price...
I really hope they release these babies soon....
Apple are doing 6 months interest free purchase on all Mac's for students in the UK, but the offer ends 31st May. If I can get through my purchase before then..I'm sorted!! £150pm (assuming it will cost £900) is sweet!
PS: They also seem to have adopted this policy whereby AppleCare is available for £60+VAT 1/3 of the price...
I would love to attend the grand opening of the store... it would definitely be a moment to remember. And if Steve himself is there... ! I'm seriously considering taking the train up to New York for this.
! I'm seriously considering taking the train up to New York for this.
Will we see a "12 PB replacement with 128mb VRAM (natural progression from the previous 64MB) for around £1100/$2000? Coz datz w0t I wants y0.
The point is that Apple want the "Mac" name in all of their Mac products. iMac has it...iBook doesn't.ero87 said:
May I Please Second Alden's Advice?
That will be at the Monday August 7th SteveNote at the San Francisco WWDC BTW. Alden forgot to look at his calendar.
If it doesn't happen for MacBooks as well as for MacBook Pros at that point, then Apple will really be pulling the wool over as many gullible eyes as it can beyond the pale of what it is doing now - which is sort of a short term profit trick in the guise of a faster technology PATCH that will have a mid term DEAD END in the not too distant future.
I understand your iMac G5 is awesome. And so is my Quad. But these 32-bit Intels are all going to wish they were 64-bit sooner than their Applecare will expire. OK fine for short term satisfaction. I agree with you that waiting is not required to have a blast with one of these BETA MOBILES. All I'm saying is wait if you can. There will probably be better quality control by the time Merom Core 2 Duo Mobiles ship. Surely you don't think that the quality control on these Rev.A mobiles is up to snuff yet do you?
The "bleeding Edge" you refer to is what is for sale now that is being called "new". I think what ships this summer will not be "bleeding edge" but rather, more dependable longer lasting new manufacturing quality control improved products.
I second that advice. Bravo for patience and self-control in the face of obsolete "new" products since January. So many reasons to wait, so many willing not to . . .AidenShaw said:
That will be at the Monday August 7th SteveNote at the San Francisco WWDC BTW. Alden forgot to look at his calendar.
If it doesn't happen for MacBooks as well as for MacBook Pros at that point, then Apple will really be pulling the wool over as many gullible eyes as it can beyond the pale of what it is doing now - which is sort of a short term profit trick in the guise of a faster technology PATCH that will have a mid term DEAD END in the not too distant future.
The real world is going to be all 64-bit hardware within 3 months from now. You need a computer sooner than that that can do something you can't do with what you have now, by all means go for it. But if you can survive on your current model(s), then Alden is correct.monkeyandy said:WTF! Do you live in the real world mate?!
BRLawyer, please chill. All we're trying to post here is a warning to all that if you can hold out a little longer, it will be worth the wait for what will ship before Summer's end. We're talking about 3 months from now. It's not like we're saying wait another year - although I will be doing that to get an eight core Mac to replace my Quad G5. I don't know if you read the outstanding analysis that AldenShaw & ehurtley wrote over at the Core 2 Duo thread - esp Page 9 Posts 201 & 202. But they make it pretty clear that what is shipping until Core 2 - which begins in little more than 2 WEEKS - is pretty much a DEAD END very soon in future. Now you want to argue that everyone should just blindly go ahead and buy what we can read here are fairly SHODDY FIRST GEN MacBook Pros FROM A NEW CONTRACTOR IN CHINA fine. I don't think so and neither do Alden and ehurtley - I think.BRLawyer said:
I understand your iMac G5 is awesome. And so is my Quad. But these 32-bit Intels are all going to wish they were 64-bit sooner than their Applecare will expire. OK fine for short term satisfaction. I agree with you that waiting is not required to have a blast with one of these BETA MOBILES. All I'm saying is wait if you can. There will probably be better quality control by the time Merom Core 2 Duo Mobiles ship. Surely you don't think that the quality control on these Rev.A mobiles is up to snuff yet do you?
The "bleeding Edge" you refer to is what is for sale now that is being called "new". I think what ships this summer will not be "bleeding edge" but rather, more dependable longer lasting new manufacturing quality control improved products.
Multimedia said:I second that advice. Bravo for patience and self-control in the face of obsolete "new" products since January. So many reasons to wait, so many willing not to . . .
Oh yeah, here we go again..."obsolete" to whom? If a Core Duo is fast enough for your needs, just buy it...there is always something new around the corner...if we were to take that advice we'd NEVER buy any computers...
That is a bad advice, and already argued against in other threads. My iMac G5 is AWESOME, and it carries an "obsolete" single G5 as well...there is no need to be always on the bleeding edge, sorry.
BRLawyer said:
I'm going to side with BRLawyer on this one:
What would I stand to gain from waiting for a Merom-based MacBook? 25% increase in speed (which I likely wouldn't notice, consider I'm not much of a power-user -- the Core Duo Yonah seems to be more than fast enough for my needs; GarageBand), and extended battery-life, correct? What would I, as a consumer stand to gain by waiting yet longer for a chipset which I may or may not notice the effects of? (the battery-life would, naturally, be nice, but I could also just buy a second battery...)
Elrond39 said:
You seem to have left out the chip's 64-bit capabilities. If you want to get 3 years out of your MacBook, you are probably going to want 64-Bit capabilities at some point.
Given that we are only three months away from the Merom, I am also surprised that you are not interested in 25% speed increases in processing power, better battery life, and a cooler-running laptop. For anyone who doesn't absolutely need to upgrade now, the Merom will really offer a lot more very soon. For those who do need to upgrade now, the Yonah is a great chip.
3 Months Of Quality Control Development
3 Months Of Quality Control Development.Elrond39 said:
Elrond39 said:
Exactly. They talk in this forum as if people were always in need of the "latest and greatest". My reply still stands: if a Core Duo MB suffices for you, go ahead and buy it. It's gonna be leagues ahead of any iBook G4, it's gonna be faster than any iMac G5 and most earlier PM G5s, and it's gonna have AT LEAST a pretty good battery life with a reasonable price tag.
The real world gains of Merom will be roughly around 15%, nothing more. You may get a little more battery, a little less heat, EM64T support and a higher price.
For MANY, this is not enough in the short/mid-term, and I am pretty sure that the market targets for the MB are NOT bleeding edge people, or heavy-users of PS and scientific apps (even though they may use them in a comfortable way).
A "dead end" chip is a chip that doesn't work for you anymore. Is this the case of Yonah (or even the G4, for many)? Not AT ALL. Do I use the G5's 64-bit capability? No, and probably less than 1% of the computer world works on 64-bit apps/needs; 64-bit computing is still restricted to a few privileged circles, not the home user.
It's about time to settle this old myth that "64-bitness is next to godliness". It's NOT now, and it's NOT gonna be for at least the next 2 years in mass adoption, unless you need crazy amounts of memory, for what a MB should never be purchased anyway.
Just to dispel some stories...from Apple's G5 developer pages:
"What is 64-bit Computing?
For the purposes of this document, 64-bit computing is defined as support for a 64-bit address space—that is, support for concurrent use of more than 4 GB of memory by a single executable program—no more, no less."
From the same source (concerning G5 chips):
"Myth #4:
Myth: Every application needs the ability to work with more than 4 GB of RAM.
Fact: Most applications have relatively modest memory requirements (a gigabyte or less). Some applications need more. Many of these applications can do so without moving to a 64-bit address space. Generally speaking, only scientific applications have moved to 64-bit executables on other platforms. There are a few exceptions, though, such as large-scale 3D rendering applications."
"Myth #5:
Myth: My application will have much faster performance if it is a “native” 64-bit application.
Fact: This is true for some other architectures because the number of registers and the width of registers changes between 32-bit and 64-bit mode. However, the PowerPC architecture does not have either of these limitations. It was designed for 64-bit computing from the beginning, and supports 64-bit arithmetic instructions in 32-bit mode. Thus, on PowerPC architectures, software does not generally become faster (and may actually slow down) when compiled as a 64-bit executable."
From Wiki:
"Also, few if any laptops can accept more than 2 GB of RAM, negating the large physical memory aspect of 64-bit support. Hence, for its intended market (mobile and laptop PCs), the lack of 64-bit support is inconsequential at the moment."
So, unless you expect to use your machine in the latest games (that don't exist yet in 64-bit, apart from UT2004 perhaps), to gobble up memory for video production or other high-end uses, just nevermind. After all, why would a home user need more than 4Gb RAM for a single executable? Nope, I don't know it either.
p.s.: Having said this, I would be glad to see a Merom in a MB with the same iBook price range...will it happen? Most likely not. Besides, it's been said that Merom may be plugged onto Yonah MOBOs...if you really need 64-bitness in the future, just let the upgrade companies swap the chip for ya...
That just reminded me that MBPs are bout 4 months old now.Multimedia said:3 Months Of Quality Control Development.
forget those damn 64 bit
i read a lot about it in the last week (i try to keep myself busy while i wait for the MB)
the 64bit prozessor has only advantages if you need ALOT of ram (>4GB) or if you handle really BIG files.
so if you don't need a database server for example, you don't need a 64bit prozessor. the rest is just marketing. most people don't know what 64 bit means. it is just more accurate (if you have the right program eg. computional fluid dynamics) and you can allocate more ram - thats all.
i'm not waiting any longer - in fact, if you wait for the merom you also have to wait for Santa Rosa and SR will not be introduced in 2006
netdog said:
i read a lot about it in the last week (i try to keep myself busy while i wait for the MB)
the 64bit prozessor has only advantages if you need ALOT of ram (>4GB) or if you handle really BIG files.
so if you don't need a database server for example, you don't need a 64bit prozessor. the rest is just marketing. most people don't know what 64 bit means. it is just more accurate (if you have the right program eg. computional fluid dynamics) and you can allocate more ram - thats all.
i'm not waiting any longer - in fact, if you wait for the merom you also have to wait for Santa Rosa and SR will not be introduced in 2006
AidenShaw said:
Ahhhh.. Last time I checked iBooks(or call it MacBook) were supposed to be consumer laptops. Not pro. Most of the people(including me) are waiting for the new intel iBooks coz MBP is much more than we might ever need. You are not waiting for a 13"MB. You are dreaming bout a 13" MBP instead. Remember it`s not the MBP people want. We want a MB. A home consumer level notebook. Not a pro laptop. I dont think such users wil really need Merom.
And with the rumors saying it might be a core solo, I think core duo will be way more than enuff for us. It`ll definitely have integrated gfx atleast in the base model. I just wish a 1.5Ghz CoreDuo with 64MB VRAM is also available at the launch. I`ll definitely pay 1400$ for that machine.
And yes. I`d love if it`s in Black or may be even a Bright Red. White just wont do.
Anniversary Mac Cube?
Just thought something out of the blue now...considering that NYC store has a big glassy cube, why not bring back a revamped CUBE as Anniversary Mac..? That would be totally unexpected, just as Steve J would like...
Just thought something out of the blue now...considering that NYC store has a big glassy cube, why not bring back a revamped CUBE as Anniversary Mac..? That would be totally unexpected, just as Steve J would like...
Some thoughts:
1. We don't know if The Steve will even be at the press event
2. Some people have described this as meaning there are "two press events". So far as I can see, the actual opening is not a press event. The opening is literally the term used to mean "The first day the store's open", not some ceremony involving cutting ribbons and stuff. It appears the press event, rather than scheduled for the morning (with a ribbon cutting thing...) is scheduled for the previous evening.
3. So, all things said, nothing's pointing at this having anything to do with anything other than opening a new flagship store. (Yes, it's an important store, it's in Manhattan. You will see publicity for it, in a way you simply will not for a store opened in Palm Beach Florida)
4. The MacBook would be a nice thing to announce there, but the store's publicity may distract from the machine itself. You're not going to try to use one to promote the other. Both events promote themselves.
5. Therefore... highly unlikely (no Steve, cross promotion a liability not an advantage) to see MacBooks at the Apple Store event.
6. WTF is this crap about 64 bit? In my entire life as a programmer, since the early eighties, I've not come across a single application that needed 64 bit addressing. There were plenty of apps in the early eighties that needed 32 bit addressing but couldn't get it and resorted to paging and other hacks, but paging today? The best I can imagine is that you might rewrite a few video apps to store the entire movie in RAM, but if you do, be prepared for it to be slower than processing the movies traditionally because of the inefficiencies that get hidden from the programmer. That's the best I can think of.
We will *need* 64 bit eventually. Not today though, and probably not for another decade. For the next decade, 64 bits will provide an infrastructure to allow us to develop those applications, and more usefully, 64 bit *arithmetic* will offer some speed benefits, especially with graphics (there's a reason most games consoles went 64 bit in the mid-nineties) Those speed benefits will be limited and the more usual technological advances, such as in bus speeds, will make more of a difference for "average" applications.
I'm all for technological advances, but to assume an Apple laptop aimed at the consumer market will not sell because in three months the entire world will go 64 bit is ridiculous.
Anyway to get back to the subject in hand, 25% chance of a MacBook release on the 18th.
1. We don't know if The Steve will even be at the press event
2. Some people have described this as meaning there are "two press events". So far as I can see, the actual opening is not a press event. The opening is literally the term used to mean "The first day the store's open", not some ceremony involving cutting ribbons and stuff. It appears the press event, rather than scheduled for the morning (with a ribbon cutting thing...) is scheduled for the previous evening.
3. So, all things said, nothing's pointing at this having anything to do with anything other than opening a new flagship store. (Yes, it's an important store, it's in Manhattan. You will see publicity for it, in a way you simply will not for a store opened in Palm Beach Florida)
4. The MacBook would be a nice thing to announce there, but the store's publicity may distract from the machine itself. You're not going to try to use one to promote the other. Both events promote themselves.
5. Therefore... highly unlikely (no Steve, cross promotion a liability not an advantage) to see MacBooks at the Apple Store event.
6. WTF is this crap about 64 bit? In my entire life as a programmer, since the early eighties, I've not come across a single application that needed 64 bit addressing. There were plenty of apps in the early eighties that needed 32 bit addressing but couldn't get it and resorted to paging and other hacks, but paging today? The best I can imagine is that you might rewrite a few video apps to store the entire movie in RAM, but if you do, be prepared for it to be slower than processing the movies traditionally because of the inefficiencies that get hidden from the programmer. That's the best I can think of.
We will *need* 64 bit eventually. Not today though, and probably not for another decade. For the next decade, 64 bits will provide an infrastructure to allow us to develop those applications, and more usefully, 64 bit *arithmetic* will offer some speed benefits, especially with graphics (there's a reason most games consoles went 64 bit in the mid-nineties) Those speed benefits will be limited and the more usual technological advances, such as in bus speeds, will make more of a difference for "average" applications.
I'm all for technological advances, but to assume an Apple laptop aimed at the consumer market will not sell because in three months the entire world will go 64 bit is ridiculous.
Anyway to get back to the subject in hand, 25% chance of a MacBook release on the 18th.
The way you write its as if all Macs will be shipping with Merom in August. Plus you make it sound like 64-bit is 100% faster than 32-bit, and the Mac OS and all Apple apps will take advantage of 64-bit processors come August. Maybe that is not what you intend to say, but it sure sounds like it. And both you and Aiden make it sound like Yonah processors are obsolete before they even ship. Give it a rest. Nothing could be further from the truth.Multimedia said:
PRAISE GOD FOR PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!peharri said:
Multimedia said:I second that advice. Bravo for patience and self-control in the face of obsolete "new" products since January. So many reasons to wait, so many willing not to . . .
I don't know if you read the outstanding analysis that AldenShaw & ehurtley wrote over at the Core 2 Duo thread - esp Page 9 Posts 201 & 202. But they make it pretty clear that what is shipping until Core 2 - which begins in little more than 2 WEEKS - is pretty much a DEAD END very soon in future. Now you want to argue that everyone should just blindly go ahead and buy what we can read here are fairly SHODDY FIRST GEN MacBook Pros FROM A NEW CONTRACTOR IN CHINA fine. I don't think so and neither do Alden and ehurtley - I think.
I agree with you that waiting is not required to have a blast with one of these BETA MOBILES. All I'm saying is wait if you can. There will probably be better quality control by the time Merom Core 2 Duo Mobiles ship. Surely you don't think that the quality control on these Rev.A mobiles is up to snuff yet do you?
Multimedia, it's always hard to understand why you act as Aiden's proxy, but this is irrelevant here anyway.
Just a few additional remarks:
1) The discussion on whether Core Duo are dead end chips has already been answered before, as that assertion is totally nonsensical...NO ONE sells Core 2 right now, and pricing hasn't even been set for computer makers.
Apple would be INSANE to drop the edu season just because some vapor 64-bit chips aren't out yet for its consumer laptops...whoever presumes that such a thing would happen is just crazy or in bad faith.
2) If you have a problem with China, you have a problem with ALL makers, as they all manufacture their machines there...it's cheaper and effective, even though some quality issues might arise with outsourcing routines...as long as Apple has strict service-level agreement enforcement and honors the warranty periods of customers, we are fine.
I YET have to see a single manufacturer that scores better than Apple in both laptop and desktop lines...you know there aren't, so I would kindly ask you to chill out as well.
The problem is that you see some people complaining about their MBP or iMacs as if they were the majority...those who are fine DON'T enter forums to say their machines are fine...and those who have a problem will obviously do.
From what I've read, MBPs are INCREDIBLE machines and the most powerful/beautiful/featured notebooks in the world (apart from 10-kg behemoths that have a slightly better GPU). So your talk about "beta mobiles" is just crap, really. Apple has been extremely quick in fixing internal revisions, and everybody is in the warranty period yet, so cool down ma boy.
3) Your assertion that Core 2 mobiles will carry "better quality" standards is, again, based on nothing...and as said above, I don't know what "quality" problems you are seeing in the production of millions of Apple notebooks...surely some will have problems...not all.
Thank you, Mr. Lawyer
Yonah laptops can support 4 GiB of RAM unless limited by the firmware or they have single SO-DIMM slots. Dell/HP/Lenovo/... sell them, Apple hasn't started yet. The first Meroms will have the same limit, since they'll be using the same Napa chipset.
______________________________________
The relevant part of what I said in the other thread is:
We're not saying that Yonah is a bad chip per se, only that if you *can* wait, *do* wait.
______________________________________
We'll just sit back and wait for a year from now, when those August Meroms are running 50% faster than the Yonah - and the new true 64-bit Leopard is supporting 64-bit CS3....
We'll see questions in the forum like "...but how well does it run in 32-bit mode on a Yonah?" A year after that, the questions will be "...but is a 32-bit version available for Yonah?"
Merom makes 64-bit useful on a laptop with 512 MiB of RAM, people who think that it's not useful because they don't need 8 GiB in a single program are wearing blinders.
Of course, x64 is exactly that other architecture that is faster in 64-bit !!!BRLawyer said:
Yonah laptops can support 4 GiB of RAM unless limited by the firmware or they have single SO-DIMM slots. Dell/HP/Lenovo/... sell them, Apple hasn't started yet. The first Meroms will have the same limit, since they'll be using the same Napa chipset.
______________________________________
The relevant part of what I said in the other thread is:
Alden in post#201 said:
We're not saying that Yonah is a bad chip per se, only that if you *can* wait, *do* wait.
______________________________________
We'll just sit back and wait for a year from now, when those August Meroms are running 50% faster than the Yonah - and the new true 64-bit Leopard is supporting 64-bit CS3....
We'll see questions in the forum like "...but how well does it run in 32-bit mode on a Yonah?" A year after that, the questions will be "...but is a 32-bit version available for Yonah?"
Merom makes 64-bit useful on a laptop with 512 MiB of RAM, people who think that it's not useful because they don't need 8 GiB in a single program are wearing blinders.
But it's not about all of that: it's a consumer laptop. CONSUMER. Do we [consumers] really (in general) need to be using a 64-bit processor, or a laptop with 4GB of RAM?
For all intents and purposes, and namely the relatively simple demands of consumers, a 32-bit Core Duo Yonah chip will not become magically obsolete once Merom is out. If I am buying a Mac consumer laptop, and the furthest extent to which I am going to tax my system is with GarageBand, tell me that a Yonah is not enough. [note that I am getting either 1.5/2 GB of RAM...likely the former] Really. I dare you. And give me good argumentation.
And as for OSX 10.5 (Leopard); do you honestly think that Yonah-based users won't be able to upgrade? Why would this be the case? Will these current systems last the length of their AppleCare warranty without becoming paperweights? Is it really necessary to continue upgrading OSs every year? Will OSX Tiger or Leopard (assuming it can function on Yonah chips) not last me for the next 3 years?
For all intents and purposes, and namely the relatively simple demands of consumers, a 32-bit Core Duo Yonah chip will not become magically obsolete once Merom is out. If I am buying a Mac consumer laptop, and the furthest extent to which I am going to tax my system is with GarageBand, tell me that a Yonah is not enough. [note that I am getting either 1.5/2 GB of RAM...likely the former] Really. I dare you. And give me good argumentation.
And as for OSX 10.5 (Leopard); do you honestly think that Yonah-based users won't be able to upgrade? Why would this be the case? Will these current systems last the length of their AppleCare warranty without becoming paperweights? Is it really necessary to continue upgrading OSs every year? Will OSX Tiger or Leopard (assuming it can function on Yonah chips) not last me for the next 3 years?
AidenShaw said:We'll just sit back and wait for a year from now, when those August Meroms are running 50% faster than the Yonah - and the new true 64-bit Leopard is supporting 64-bit CS3....
And wait for another 6 months after that and you`ll have a cpu 50% faster than First Meroms you got in your MB this august. So there`s no point in saying that MB with yonah will soon become obsolete in 3 months when Merom arrives. So there is no point in waiting extra 3-6 months only for Meroms which as a matter of fact will become obsolete within in a year when intel launches newer Meroms.
vikas soni said:
No, there will always be faster chips, but the change from x86 to x64 is a shift in architecture. We are at the beginning of the end of 32-bit architecture era as ,once the Merom is introduced in August, all Intels chip lines will have migrated to 64-bit architecture. That is only 3 months away that Intel's transition to 64-bit will be complete.
Moving forward, Leopard and all future Mac OS's will try to leverage what they can from what will then be the current platform. 64-bit Intel architecture should be around for a long time, and will certainly be the standard long before anyone's AppleCare warranty runs out on a MB purchased next week. By that time, the Yonah and 32-bit architecture will be a distant memory, but a Merom, while slow, will support the primary functionality of whatever Intel is making in 3 years, and that of the OS and software designed to work within that architecture.
Speed aside, will a Yonah be useful in 3 years? Sure. Again speed aside, will a Merom be much more useful than a Yonah in three years? Almost certainly.