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entropys

macrumors 65816
Jan 5, 2007
1,244
2,394
Brisbane, Australia
emails are a pretty common type of evidential material in trials. That's why you should be very careful about what you write in them. Even the Microsoft monopoly trial back in the 1990's featured them.
Exactly. I am constantly reminding staff to not put anything potentially libellous or disparaging in emails. And yet they do. Spraying thoughts around with gay abandon. It can get them in trouble.
Email isn’t the same as casual conversation, it can all be accessed by a third party on request, and that third party may not have your interests at heart.

even worse, posting stuff on Facebook and Twitter. Or even this website. It’s all accessible.
 

laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,635
4,025
Earth
People putting forward 'emotional' posts rather than factual posts about the evidence.

Apple say they feature competitors apps all the time in the app store. Epic has to provide evidence to prove this statement is false and they have done so 1) via an email from an Apple employee that discredits Apples statement and 2) research from analytics firm Sensor Tower at the time showed that first-party Apple apps ranked first for over 700 search terms. Again this evidence discredits Apples statement.

On this one Epic 1 Apple 0
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,359
3,739
So is the private conversation between two mafia guys plotting to kill somebody. But if they create a record, then it’s fair play (and there are rules to use such items in court).

Exactly.

it’s really “concerning” seeing some of the comments on here but without a grain of understanding what rules and obligations are when running a business. Yes so full of opinions. My gosh when some on here ever get to run or even be part of business they’d be in a whole lot of trouble.

Then again not that surprising as most businesses do actually fail …

This will be hard to have a conversation with your employees and discussing anything before you come to a conclusion, because anything you say or do will be used against you in court.

Mafia is illegal, corporates are legal. imo they should have protection
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,422
34,229
Texas
This will be hard to have a conversation with your employees and discussing anything before you come to a conclusion, because anything you say or do will be used against you in court.

Mafia is illegal, corporates are legal. imo they should have protection
Corporations might be legal but not everything they do necessarily is. Email is a record, as such is available. You’re basically saying that if a company writes down to do something illegal (e.g. “dump trash in the lake” or “harass our employees”) that shouldn’t be used as evidence.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,750
22,337
Singapore
Corporations might be legal but not everything they do necessarily is. Email is a record, as such is available. You’re basically saying that if a company writes down to do something illegal (e.g. “dump trash in the lake” or “harass our employees”) that shouldn’t be used as evidence.

Well, did the company ultimately end up dumping trash in the lake? You can only fault someone for what they actually did, not what they might have done. “Coffee-shop talk” happens behind closed doors all the time, and while it might be funny and embarrassing, I don’t see how it can be held up as evidence if the company did not follow through with said discussion.
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,422
34,229
Texas
Well, did the company ultimately end up dumping trash in the lake? You can only fault someone for what they actually did, not what they might have done. “Coffee-shop talk” happens behind closed doors all the time, and while it might be funny and embarrassing, I don’t see how it can be held up as evidence if the company did not follow through with said discussion.
And the company can still defend its position; no one is saying that an email is conclusive evidence, however it’s evidence nonetheless. If you say that emails are not admissible in court you just created the perfect loophole to organize crimes of all sort. All written communications are admissible in court (depending on circumstances), and all oral communications are admissible in court (usually with the cooperation of a witness or a recording or a memorandum that refers to it etc).
There are rules on how to admit evidence so it’s not that easy to bring it in court.
 
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Lihp8270

macrumors 65816
Dec 31, 2016
1,121
1,592
Well, did the company ultimately end up dumping trash in the lake? You can only fault someone for what they actually did, not what they might have done. “Coffee-shop talk” happens behind closed doors all the time, and while it might be funny and embarrassing, I don’t see how it can be held up as evidence if the company did not follow through with said discussion.
and if it’s a conspiracy case?
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,217
8,203
Apple Store is such a mess I can usually get a better idea of the options via Google Search.
That’s the way it should be. There are YouTube videos, blogs, reviews, MANY MANY ways to find out about Applications. OR you can use duckduckgo if you prefer.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,217
8,203
research from analytics firm Sensor Tower at the time
At the time… not true anymore, so Epic is proving that, at some point in the past before they took steps to prevent doing a thing, they were doing a thing. And, reiterating, they’re not doing a thing anymore.

Proving something that was STILL happening would be a better case. As it is, Epic merely proved that Apple accpets feedback and acts upon it accordingly. Which is what every company should do. So, thanks Epic for showing yet another way Apple is an ethical company?
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 68040
Jun 22, 2014
3,345
2,089
UK
This will be hard to have a conversation with your employees and discussing anything before you come to a conclusion, because anything you say or do will be used against you in court.

Mafia is illegal, corporates are legal. imo they should have protection
It really is not hard. Just do it with honesty and integrity and be legal in your actions.

I don’t see these emails, and I’m cross post referencing to others as a huge deal. Now it would be a huge deal if they took up some of the actions which they didn’t or neglected to to act in others which is also not the case.

EPIC legal team is trying to paint a picture and it seems many are falling for it. Besides wasting time it’s not really harmful and it seems to me that they don’t really have anything so they are trying to throw mud at the wall in an attempt to see what sticks. It’s not illegal tactics but I really don’t think it’s a case brought forward with best intention when I witness such behaviour.

just get to the point epic if you have something.
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 68040
Jun 22, 2014
3,345
2,089
UK
People putting forward 'emotional' posts rather than factual posts about the evidence.

Apple say they feature competitors apps all the time in the app store. Epic has to provide evidence to prove this statement is false and they have done so 1) via an email from an Apple employee that discredits Apples statement and 2) research from analytics firm Sensor Tower at the time showed that first-party Apple apps ranked first for over 700 search terms. Again this evidence discredits Apples statement.

On this one Epic 1 Apple 0
Funny how people see things so differently. Factually they really did not.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,359
3,739
Well, did the company ultimately end up dumping trash in the lake? You can only fault someone for what they actually did, not what they might have done. “Coffee-shop talk” happens behind closed doors all the time, and while it might be funny and embarrassing, I don’t see how it can be held up as evidence if the company did not follow through with said discussion.

And the company can still defend its position; no one is saying that an email is conclusive evidence, however it’s evidence nonetheless. If you say that emails are not admissible in court you just created the perfect loophole to organize crimes of all sort. All written communications are admissible in court (depending on circumstances), and all oral communications are admissible in court (usually with the cooperation of a witness or a recording or a memorandum that refers to it etc).
There are rules on how to admit evidence so it’s not that easy to bring it in court.

This is exactly what I am trying to say, no one should be held accountable for discussing matters. Once action is taken or a public announcement is made then yes, use that in court. No one can have a proper discussion knowing everything that comes out of his mouth will be recorded and will be used against in him in court.
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,422
34,229
Texas
This is exactly what I am trying to say, no one should be held accountable for discussing matters.
no one is accountable for discussing matters (*). One is accountable for crimes.
However, discussing matters can be used as evidence of intent. A common example is a manager asking someone to do X just to hear from the lawyers that it would be illegal or borderline or not by policy etc (it happens to me often). The fact that the manager said X and discussed it doesn’t mean that he’s liable. However - should he proceed in doing whatever X is - the emails can be used to prove that he had enough knowledge that he was committing a crime. In other words, emails and conversation will help in determine mens rea, on top of providing evidence of a fact.

*= obviously it also depends on the matters at hand. If you’re trying to organize a terrorist attack, then what you discuss will make you accountable.
 
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genovelle

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,105
2,683
Just because Apple features competitor products doesn’t mean competitor can compete with Apple on an even playing field. More exposure is only part of trying to get customers on board for your products.

It is interesting to see how these behind the scene stuff surfacing, and I’d say Epic Game has achieved this goal, whether intended or not. But as usual, there is always more That meets the eye.
In reality the fact that they are allowed to complete at all is awesome. Remember most of these companies can’t create their products without the platform and tools that Apple has to create and maintain. The App Store is really an extension of their 1st party app development. It wasn’t initially intended to be used by 3rd parties and Steve Jobs was against it and had to be convinced to even allow it.
 

Shirasaki

macrumors P6
May 16, 2015
15,750
11,103
In reality the fact that they are allowed to complete at all is awesome. Remember most of these companies can’t create their products without the platform and tools that Apple has to create and maintain. The App Store is really an extension of their 1st party app development. It wasn’t initially intended to be used by 3rd parties and Steve Jobs was against it and had to be convinced to even allow it.
So you mean apple back then was way more closed than it is right now? Seems fair, and very apple.
I mean, if someone believe they can single-handed against the world why not…
 

Mr Lizard

macrumors regular
Jan 26, 2006
107
114
London, UK
No surprise. Search "Word Processing": Apple Pages (Free), nearly everything else (not free)
Not my experience. First result is an irrelevant ad, followed by:

MS Word
Google Docs
TextEditor
Zoho Writer
Pages
 

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Mr Lizard

macrumors regular
Jan 26, 2006
107
114
London, UK
In reality the fact that they are allowed to complete at all is awesome. Remember most of these companies can’t create their products without the platform and tools that Apple has to create and maintain. The App Store is really an extension of their 1st party app development. It wasn’t initially intended to be used by 3rd parties and Steve Jobs was against it and had to be convinced to even allow it.
That whole ‘these companies should be grateful to Apple’ schtick is getting tired quickly. The relationship between Apple and devs is symbiotic.

Ask yourself this: if the App Store closed tomorrow, Xcode was shut down, and all third party devs stopped releasing apps do you really think customers would stick around using iPhones and wouldn’t jump ship to Android?

Can you imagine Apple trying to sell an iPhone *today* with no Netflix, YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram? That *might* just hit their sales a little.
 

cyb3rdud3

macrumors 68040
Jun 22, 2014
3,345
2,089
UK
That whole ‘these companies should be grateful to Apple’ schtick is getting tired quickly. The relationship between Apple and devs is symbiotic.

Ask yourself this: if the App Store closed tomorrow, Xcode was shut down, and all third party devs stopped releasing apps do you really think customers would stick around using iPhones and wouldn’t jump ship to Android?

Can you imagine Apple trying to sell an iPhone *today* with no Netflix, YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram? That *might* just hit their sales a little.
It’s a bit chicken and egg. Ones perspective depends on how long one has been around.

Sure for any new entrants to this market it would be unthinkable not to provide support to those companies. But they weren’t always like that.

But likewise if I as a customer would have to start installing several app stores to hunt down the applications I want because developers don’t support all the app stores then I would desert them as well. Really not interested in such retrograde worsening experience. And definitely would support those fighting for that.

I prefer change that improves customer experience not worsen it.
 

Teejaye

macrumors newbie
Sep 8, 2020
16
27
Baldwin Hills, Los Angeles
I do understand apple cutting competitors’ visibility is an egregious act and definitely needed to be rectified… but why is apple users searching 1st party apps wrong? Is it wrong that android users search for android apps? Since when did we start holding pity parties for losers?
 

Teejaye

macrumors newbie
Sep 8, 2020
16
27
Baldwin Hills, Los Angeles
That whole ‘these companies should be grateful to Apple’ schtick is getting tired quickly. The relationship between Apple and devs is symbiotic.

Ask yourself this: if the App Store closed tomorrow, Xcode was shut down, and all third party devs stopped releasing apps do you really think customers would stick around using iPhones and wouldn’t jump ship to Android?

Can you imagine Apple trying to sell an iPhone *today* with no Netflix, YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram? That *might* just hit their sales a little.
That’s if you came to apple for the apps. What if, like me, you came for the security and ecosystem? I also came to apple because I make music and fashion, apple has some of the best products for my particular hobbies. The cameras are better than androids, there’s still FaceTime and iMessage…. I think apple would be A ok without YouTube. Especially seeing as most of the apps you mentioned are still accessible through safari.
 

Brandon916

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2018
186
285
Epic: Pretty Dirty Pack. Publishing emails is really borderline, because often such dialogues are just negotiation statements. Taking this to court now is: dirty.
Epic no longer deserves any respect.

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It goes both ways. Apple strong armed Wordpress to add a shopping cart. Wordpress went to the press to embarrassed Apple and it worked. All of these companies over reached all the time. If you don't do anything about it, they'll keep over reaching. Apple forced FB to give them a fee if any users wanted to setup a movie night betweens friends. FB didn't want to but Apple forced them. Trust me, none of these companies are on the side of consumers. Don't fall for it. They simply want your money.
 

UBS28

macrumors 68030
Oct 2, 2012
2,893
2,340
Apple should have simply let Epic Games sell their own products in their own game. Even if Apple wins this case, there will be consequences.

And not sure why everybody like Apple's control on iOS. iOS is a joke because of the App Store basically. On Mac OS X, you can install software from any source you want, which are often of much better quality you find in the Mac App Store.
 

Brandon916

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2018
186
285
Apple should have simply let Epic Games sell their own products in their own game. Even if Apple wins this case, there will be consequences.

And not sure why everybody like Apple's control on iOS. iOS is a joke because of the App Store basically. On Mac OS X, you can install software from any source you want, which are often of much better quality you find in the Mac App Store.
Because they advertised the hell out of it and now many mainstream users believe Apple's word. They live and die with Apple.
 

Brandon916

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2018
186
285
That’s if you came to apple for the apps. What if, like me, you came for the security and ecosystem? I also came to apple because I make music and fashion, apple has some of the best products for my particular hobbies. The cameras are better than androids, there’s still FaceTime and iMessage…. I think apple would be A ok without YouTube. Especially seeing as most of the apps you mentioned are still accessible through safari.
The camera isn't better. Many have caught up to Apple and surpassed them already. Most of these cameras are so good now, you can't even tell them apart unless you try and pixel peak. News flash, every time someone does a blind camera test, none of the flagship phone wins.
Maybe the video recording is one of the best but many have caught up to Apple's camera. It was google that introduce the night mode way before Apple could copy them.
iMessage equivalent is also on android under RCS.
Factime equivalent is there on android as well, Duo.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,217
8,203
Ask yourself this: if the App Store closed tomorrow, Xcode was shut down, and all third party devs stopped releasing apps do you really think customers would stick around using iPhones and wouldn’t jump ship to Android?
Apple already sells millions of devices already that don’t have apps for Netflix, YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram… it’s called macOS :) The iPhone would still have Safari and could still log into all of the important stuff, unless those devs decided to block the richest customers in the world from their web portals. Even then, the number one site for most users appears to be Facebook anyway, which also has a web view. So, folks would be annoyed but most would stay where they are AND buy the next iOS device once their iPhone gets old.

For folks that want to play games? Yeah, the greatest games are already not on iOS. However, I’ve heard of this amazing thing were games can be streamed via Safari…
 
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