Apple Executives Discuss M2 Chips, Gaming on Mac, Intel and More

[InuNacho]

Gaming on Mac has been a topic since… the beginning of the Macintosh. It was good and fun in the 68k era, not dramatic in the PPC era and started to decline severely in the intel era. However you could always install windows and that solved the problem. Now with the M series it will definitely by dead. Gaming on Mac will stay casual and a niche for bobo.

Gamers need a machine that you can tweak and evolve and one that is tuned for that purpose financially. The Mac is the opposite of that. You can’t change the hard drive (games take a lot of space) and you can’t change the memory. BTO is way too expensive for high memory/storage. Finally the Mac platform is too unreliable for long term planning in the sense that you cannot anticipate the roadmap, you cannot know whether the technology you are developing for will be here for 1 year or 10 years. The investment is high and the roadmap unreliable.

I think Mac gaming really went south with the release of OS X. I remember there being a kind of 3D gaming renaissance in the PPC era where we got most of what PC got, well anything I wanted to play anyhow.
Quake, Carmageddon, UT99, etc.
You are right though, 68K was the time of Mac gaming. My avatar is from the Macintosh version Sim Ant (Color).

I think storage is a real problem for gaming on the Mac. I just bought a base M2 Mini which SHOULD be the entry point to Mac gaming but its hobbled by a paltry 256GB drive. I mean if somehow Red Dead Redemption 2 got ported to the Mac, its base PC counterpart takes up 150GB. Better not have anything left on that drive.

Now I know what I'm getting into with my base M2 Mini as a secondary computer, but just to get it up to snuff would cost another $400. Meanwhile a 500GB 2.5 SATA SSD costs what, $40?

 

[quarkysg]

I think Mac gaming really went south with the release of OS X. I remember there being a kind of 3D gaming renaissance in the PPC era where we got most of what PC got, well anything I wanted to play anyhow.
Quake, Carmageddon, UT99, etc.
You are right though, 68K was the time of Mac gaming. My avatar is from the Macintosh version Sim Ant (Color).

I guess Macs using Intel CPUs doesn't really help either since folks can just run x86 Windows.

 

[Homy]

You can’t change the hard drive (games take a lot of space)

I think storage is a real problem for gaming on the Mac. I just bought a base M2 Mini which SHOULD be the entry point to Mac gaming but its hobbled by a paltry 256GB drive. I mean if somehow Red Dead Redemption 2 got ported to the Mac, its base PC counterpart takes up 150GB. Better not have anything left on that drive.

You guys talk as if you haven't heard of external storage. I have all my games on an external drive. Much better than having them on one internal drive because I can easily switch between my Macs. When I buy a new Mac I can just connect the drive and play instead of having to install everything again. Instead of paying $200 to Apple for 512GB more you can buy 1TB for as low as $65 on Amazon.

well anything I wanted to play anyhow.
Quake, Carmageddon, UT99, etc.

You can still play all those games natively on Apple Silicon via Mac Source Ports.

 

[InuNacho]

You guys talk as if you haven't heard of external storage. I have all my games on an external drive. Much better than having them on one internal drive because I can easily switch between my Macs. When I buy a new Mac I can just connect the drive and play instead of having to install everything again. Instead of paying $200 to Apple for 512GB more you can buy 1TB for as low as $65 on Amazon.

I don't know about you, but I've owned a 2018 i7 Mini and now a M2 Mini and these things are the WORST at external storage. My M2 has a reproducible kernel panic when stressing a M.2 drive in an enclosure OR it will disconnect during big reads and writes on its own. Doesn't happen on my PC!
In the years I've had my "Octopus Minis", if its bus powered it would eventually disconnect at random. Even a Thunderbolt enclosure I had hooked up had the tendency to just not feel like mounting.

So in short, externals with Apple computers are trash.

 

[Bodhitree]

If they were serious about Mac gaming on Apple Silicon they should have treated it as a console launch: 4 or more first-party AAA titles, and 4-8 good quality third-party titles appropriate to the platform.

 

[quarkysg]

If they were serious about Mac gaming on Apple Silicon they should have treated it as a console launch: 4 or more first-party AAA titles, and 4-8 good quality third-party titles appropriate to the platform.

I would say they are serious, but they are probably not going to go all in and show hand. The improvements made to Metal shows that.

The better strategy IMHO, would be to build up the installed base over time. We are just 2+ years into the transition. I think Apple is very patience in this front. It could be likely that it is a market that Apple may like more business but it is not a market that makes or breaks the company for them.

Investments are always based on ROI. Paying big money to prop up Mac gaming is probably not good ROI for them atm.

 

[Bodhitree]

Look, the hardware of M1 is basically equivalent to a PS4 in total compute, stronger cpu and weaker gpu, it is not enough to be on an even footing with current console and PC titles. That means to make a Mac port requires a customised approach, and its just not a cost-effective strategy unless you sell a good number of units.

Its like making a port for the Nintendo Switch, except out of an installed base of 20m most of them are non-gamers or very casual, as opposed to the Switch’s 91m sales since 2017 to rabid gaming fans. Eventually the M-series will become an attractive gaming platform by sheer weight of numbers, if you add 10-15m Macs every year (some of the M1 sales will be iPads).

A big part of that shift will be due to homogenisation, one of the big things that makes the PC painful to develop for is the range of specifications. If you have 30m Macs with just M1 and M2 processors, that is a lot easier to code for, almost like a console.

But we are still talking about ports, not original titles or things that will drive the platform as a gaming destination. To do those latter things you have to treat it as a console launch and invest in first-party, like Microsoft have done.

 

[diamond.g]

I would say they are serious, but they are probably not going to go all in and show hand. The improvements made to Metal shows that.

The better strategy IMHO, would be to build up the installed base over time. We are just 2+ years into the transition. I think Apple is very patience in this front. It could be likely that it is a market that Apple may like more business but it is not a market that makes or breaks the company for them.

Investments are always based on ROI. Paying big money to prop up Mac gaming is probably not good ROI for them atm.

How many Macs need to be in the wild before Warner Brothers feels that putting Hogwarts Legacy on macOS would be a good investment? How long after the spotlight (hypetrain) that is currently on the game will that be?

 

[Homy]

I don't know about you, but I've owned a 2018 i7 Mini and now a M2 Mini and these things are the WORST at external storage. My M2 has a reproducible kernel panic when stressing a M.2 drive in an enclosure OR it will disconnect during big reads and writes on its own. Doesn't happen on my PC!
In the years I've had my "Octopus Minis", if its bus powered it would eventually disconnect at random. Even a Thunderbolt enclosure I had hooked up had the tendency to just not feel like mounting.

So in short, externals with Apple computers are trash.

Sounds as if you've build your own drives by putting a separate M.2 SSD in an enclosure. Have you tried a prebuilt Mac compatible branded drive? I use external Lacie drives with my Intel iMac and M1 Pro MBP and they work fine.

 

[Ethosik]

Anyone remember the Wii U? It was a failure because it lacked third party support. Even with the Nintendo name it suffered greatly with third party games. Yes any games being ported requires some significant work. Even when I tried one of my games a while back on the Xbox One. It performed fine on Windows but the Xbox version had issues. So yes, any port to Mac requires work. Just like any port to Nintendo Switch will require significant work. And talk about absurd difficulties porting and creating games for another platform - PS3 was the most difficult things to develop for from developers I have spoken to. Cell processor did that console no favors.

BUT Nintendo Switch DOES have higher marketshare which means it DOES get more attention from developers. Even though the switch hardware is a complete joke (come on now, where is Switch 2 already?!).

My game is being built in Unity. It is literally just a few clicks and a Mac running to get a macOS build out of my game. It is functional up to a point but the macOS build encounters bugs my Windows build does not. Therefore, due to the marketshare of Macs it will not get any more attention from me.

And the game I am building runs just fine on an old 2013 Windows laptop with integrated graphics. Its not that demanding of a game AT ALL.

Do you honestly believe sinking millions into buying a game studio is good for Apple to do? Sure I have both Macs and PC but most PC gamers do NOT have Macs. Do you honestly think there will be one killer title that gets people to go out and buy expensive Macs to play one game? I am NOT moving from my gaming PC because I will lose my 500+ games on Steam that are Windows only. If a game is a Mac exclusive, I am fortunate enough to have Macs to play them but if I did not I would not buy a Mac just for one or even a handful of titles. I will just wait for it to be released on PC like I am waiting for Horizon Forbidden West on PC instead of getting a PS5.

I think what Apple is doing is fine with the level of marketshare we have. We have RE Village and will have No Mans Sky eventually. NMS is a game I am very interested in playing. I purchased it at launch and played for a bit but did not like it. I heard, just like FF14 it had one of the best redemption stories and the NMS game is really good now. RE Village? Meh I liked the first 1-4 Resident Evil games but the later ones are too over the top for me. I know a lot of people love the game though. I think we will see things improve. It will be slow....VERY SLOW....but I don't think there is anything Apple can do short of just giving out Macs to increase marketshare so devs (myself included) take more interest in ports.

Believe me, I am right there with most of you. I am tired of turning on my gaming PC because I just know I need to crank up the AC and have fans going in my room because it puts out an absurd amount of heat. Even in the winter! I have to ban my PC in the summer when it is over 100 degrees because my AC even with my portable AC cannot keep my room cool.

I am fortunate to be a developer and understand more pieces of the puzzle other than "RAWR APPLE BAD!!!" and running my business for an ROI perspective to just not spend resources on a Mac port. Even though the technology I use to build my game literally has an option to create a macOS build right there.

 

[dannys1]

I meant biennial. I will edit it.

Back in the power pc days, the PowerMac, as it was called, was updated every 24 months with a new design iteration every 48 months.

Aye that's fine - I think that's close to what we'll see - probably closer to every 18-20 months though - that is once they decide the roadmap/design/idea for the Mac Pro and Mac Studio, if they both co-exist somehow.

 

[ninetyCent]

Nothing in your screed disputes what was said about gaming. Windows gamers will never switch over to Macs for, el oh el, "gaming"

I hope you're not running any company.

 

[ninetyCent]

I agree. I'd engage in more games if they were available for Mac.

I used to do MS exclusively, then eventually it became just for gaming, but I came to despise everything about it and stopped that too. Everything else (except having a broad choice of games) is better on Macs.

About half my friends are in the same boat, but not willing to take that last step yet. They hang onto a MS machine just for games. Only one has gone the same route as me so far. The other half haven't tried a Mac.

Yeah I was the same way too. Once i made the move to a mac, i never went back. Especially since writing software is so much easier on that platform. That's pre WSL though. And my PC is now in storage since I stopped playing games haha

 

[DeepIn2U]

This is all great, and we know 3nm will bring bigger changes.

The real question for the Mac is when is it catching up on technologies like cell modems and Face ID, touchscreens etc…

Also, the odd rumors surrounding the Mac Pro and the lack of a larger consumer iMac are still misses. No real colors still in much aside from the iMac (which feels neglected at this point). We got midnight on the air, but not on the pros…Mac mini on old design still…just some weird oddities.

In general however, the Apple Silicon era has been very exciting, I just hope they keep their foot on the gas. The battery life is incredible, and how cool they run is amazing.

I have my 14” MacBook Pro now hooked up to two studio displays, and it’s by far the best Mac setup I’ve ever used.

I wish the whining over the iMac would settle down a bit it’s been the most recent release prior to 35 days ago. It needs another 3 mths before normal schedule for an update. Chill it’s coming.

Bob Borchers has a very interesting career and I think he’s the right fit here at Apple.

Previously working at Nokia, then created the luxury sun-brand Vertu - 1st luxury smartphone brand globally and then to iPod and iPhone for t he development stages 2yrs before launch. Then returning to Apple.

Now this mention of a long term view towards gaming … I kind of believe him than past Apple reps only talking sheesha bout it in the past.

 

[DeepIn2U]

The biggest issue for me is that you cannot upgrade the GPU on Macs since it's all integrated into Apple's chip.

With Windows PCs, you can upgrade the GPU whenever you feel like it (what I used to do was buy 1 year old higher end parts off friends who are upgrading to something newer at a nice discount). With a Mac, you'd need to buy a completely new machine.

False.

Not ALL windows PCs you can upgrade the graphics chips bith laptops and desktops.

Check the entire product portfolio of all manufacturers. You’re talking common nonsense when you actually means specific products. Be more truthful please.