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PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
But those looking at the MacBook Air will see that as a price increase for a more powerful computer that they don't need. The MacBook Air is already too expensive as it is, even with its old TN display.


Oh, if this new laptop runs iOS then yes I agree it would make perfect sense to call it iBook. But I thought we were talking about a MacBook Air upgrade/replacement here, so I was assuming macOS and not iOS.

What would be the point of an iBook running iOS though? What would make it different from an iPad with a keyboard cover?

If Apple does release a laptop running iOS then we're in for a torrent of furious comments on MacRumors like we've never seen before. They did say on multiple occasions that they were not merging macOS and iOS, after all.



This lack of leaks is indeed not helping anymore predict what Apple are going to do next. Maybe there's no hardware leak because this new laptop already exists (iPad + keyboard cover) and the only new thing is an iPad running the ARM version of macOS. But then that wouldn't explain the yet-to-be-released model numbers, so I'm dismissing that last idea completely.
Right. No laptop will run iOS. A-series CPUs may well end up on laptops, but they’ll be running MacOS.

re: the new Air/nTB merged 13” notebook, I can see it starting at $899 but not with a Retina display. No way there will be a 13” Retina 8GB/128GB at $899-$999 when Apple just released a 13” Retina 8GB/128GB 256GB notebook a month ago at $1,799.

Edited: to correct the Touch Bar config
 
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PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
The 2018 13" and 15" TouchBar MBP's both start with 256GB SSD. Only the 2017 non-TouchBar MBP and the Air start with 128GB.
Ah yes you are right of course, I was thinking of the nTB that is apparently merging with the Air.

Still, there’s a lot of ground to cover between a $899-999 Retina 8/128 nTB/Air replacement and a $1,799 Retina 8/256 Touch Bar MBP. That says to me the sub-$1000 entry level base model won’t be Retina, others disagree—but haven’t offered steps in price/feature differentiation that would make the TB MBP “worth” the money. I mean, the Touch Bar isn’t worth $600-700... though some might pay an extra $100-200 to NOT have the TB lol.
 
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ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
6,783
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People complain about everything. You are not all knowing, so it’s ridiculous to say “non one” complained about it.

"non one"? You typing on a butterfly keyboard? ;)

I've been buying Apple laptops since 1999 and the Retina MacBook was the first one I've ever returned. I've read dozens, if not hundreds, of anecdotal accounts very similar to mine over the past couple years. I've been pretty active on various Mac forums for the last 15 years at least -- and no, there was no groundswell of complaint about the keyboards on Mac laptops before now. Even the Powerbooks of the early 2000s with their squishy keyboards, which were not great -- even those were not this divisive.

I'll repeat what I wrote before because I think you missed it: if a keyboard design is so "radical" and so ignorant of basic human factors like tactile feedback, to the point where it turns off a bunch of users even several years after its introduction, it's a bad design.

Sometimes, you don’t know how something can improve until a company shows you.

Did you pull that straight from Apple marketing or what? I guess there are always people who get seduced by Jony Ive's velvety smooth videos about the engineering and think that it has to be better. I mean, Jony said so, right? That marketing video can't be... wrong, could it?
 
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Yvan256

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2004
5,080
991
Canada
Retina display or not?

Let's keep in mind that Mojave is supposed to have dropped sub-pixel anti-aliasing and even font anti-aliasing altogether. Without a retina display, you will end up with text that looks rendered by a computer from 1988.
 
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frou

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2009
1,287
1,786
A 2018 model laptop without Retina is untenable, especially because Apple are removing sub-pixel text rendering in Mojave. Meaning text on low-PPI panels will look even worse than normal.

Edit: Wow @Yvan256 , we had the same thought simultaneously!
 
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Roadstar

macrumors 68000
Sep 24, 2006
1,718
2,185
Vantaa, Finland
Retina display or not?

Let's keep in mind that Mojave is supposed to have dropped sub-pixel anti-aliasing and even font anti-aliasing altogether. Without a retina display, you will end up with text that looks rendered by a computer from 1988.

Exactly. If Apple proceeds to release another non-retina laptop while simultaneously releasing an OS that treats non-retina users as second or third class citizens, it would be quite indicative of Apple being focused solely on profits instead of products and their user experience.
 
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manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
7,219
3,031
All anyone has
Ever asked for is a MacBook Air with a retina screen.
The nTB 13" MBP is in all but name a MacBook Air with retina screen. Or what specs should a have retina MBA have that would differ from the nTB 13" MBP? (And don't say the same but cheaper.)
[doublepost=1534492309][/doublepost]
This consumer-focused MacBook is what I'm most excited for this fall. The existing product lineup for Apple's consumer notebooks is an awkward mess. 13" dinosaur MacBook Air, 12" MacBook that is as expensive as the neutered version of the 13" MacBook Pro. Yuck. I love the 12" MacBook, but I hope they throw all 3 SKU's away and release something clean and new like this:

13" MacBook starting at $999
  • 2560x1600 Retina display
  • Two USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 ports
  • Face ID (or Touch Bar with Touch ID BTO option)
  • 128GB SSD up to 1TB SSD
  • Dual Core i5 up to Core i7
  • 8GB of RAM up to 16GB
So, Apple should just lower the price of the 13" nTB MacBook Pro ($1299) that currently offers:
  • 2560 x 1600 Retina display
  • Two USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 ports
  • 128 GB SSD up to 1 TB SSD
  • Dual Core i5 up to Core i7
  • 8 GB of RAM up to 16 GB
by $300 and add FaceID or TouchID?
[doublepost=1534493109][/doublepost]
meh... where's the macbook pro 2018 WITHOUT the lame touch bar???
You mean: Intel, where are the successors to the Kaby Lake processors currently used in the nTB MBP?
  • 7360U, 2.3 GHz (3.6 GHz Turbo), Iris Plus 640, 4 MB L3, 64 MB L4, 15 W TDP
  • 7660U, 2.5 GHz (4.0 GHz Turbo), Iris Plus 640, 4 MB L3, 64 MB L4, 15 W TDP
Wikipedia lists no 15-W TDP Coffee Lake processors. There are Kaby Lake R (refresh) 15-W TDP processors, but they only have UHD 620 graphics with no L4 cache.
[doublepost=1534494473][/doublepost]
just tell me why?
why there is "Air" in the line until now! it serves what suppose exactly?
To offer a Mac laptop at $999? The second-cheapest model costs $300 more.
 

PowerGala

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2016
201
272
Financially speaking, the only reason the MacBook Air still exists is because it sells. If we're only looking at the price, that's why it's still selling so Apple keeps making more.

So looking only at cost and profit margin, I don't see how a MacBook Pro could drop so much in price that it becomes the replacement for the MacBook Air.

And returning to the name "iBook" would only make things confusing, unless this isn't a laptop and Apple are releasing a low-cost e-paper tablet.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but they've been calling their laptops "Books" since 1991. It's pretty obvious to me what an iBook is and I don't recall anyone being confused about what it was during the 10 year period they went with that name for their entry-level laptop. Calling it the MacBook Air no longer makes sense because the MacBook is more compact and there are plenty of thinner options in the Windows and Android world. I also think it's overly long, same with MacBook Pro.

I like the iBook, MacBook, and PowerBook branding because it's simple and it tells you exactly what they are in their names. Entry-Level, Ultra-Portable, Power.

I guess the names don't really matter. If they make good laptops, they could call them whatever the heck they want.
 

CWallace

macrumors G4
Aug 17, 2007
11,959
10,616
Seattle, WA
More rumors: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/17/entry-level-macbook-ipad-pro-fast-charge-sept/

I am going to hazard a guess the base MacBook drops $300 to $999 and the MBP w/o Touchbar drops $100 to this rumored $1199 price point.

I understand a $300 haircut on the MacBook seems absolutely un-Apple, but they could probably really goose the sales of it for Back to School at that price and by now the Bill of Sale for parts is probably a fair bit less than when it launched three years ago so Apple's margins on it may already be so high a 25% cut might not be so catastrophic.
 
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Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
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"non one"? You typing on a butterfly keyboard? ;)

I've been buying Apple laptops since 1999 and the Retina MacBook was the first one I've ever returned. I've read dozens, if not hundreds, of anecdotal accounts very similar to mine over the past couple years. I've been pretty active on various Mac forums for the last 15 years at least -- and no, there was no groundswell of complaint about the keyboards on Mac laptops before now. Even the Powerbooks of the early 2000s with their squishy keyboards, which were not great -- even those were not this divisive.

I'll repeat what I wrote before because I think you missed it: if a keyboard design is so "radical" and so ignorant of basic human factors like tactile feedback, to the point where it turns off a bunch of users even several years after its introduction, it's a bad design.



Did you pull that straight from Apple marketing or what? I guess there are always people who get seduced by Jony Ive's velvety smooth videos about the engineering and think that it has to be better. I mean, Jony said so, right? That marketing video can't be... wrong, could it?
No...you're overthinking this. If the keyboard were terrible, it'd be gone. Apple knows what they are doing and yes, companies can show you something is better that you didn't know. That's why good companies like Apple don't ask consumers what they want to see. Consumers don't know...you have to show them.

All of your 15 years of anecdotal information is meaningless. Apple knows their customer far, far better than anyone can surmise on their own. They also know how many warranty claims are keyboard related, have unlimited data to study the customer, and have all the resources in the world to make decisions. If the membrane they added fixes the isolated cases of stuck keys and gives you the benefit of better response, the design is fine and they just improved it.

Trying to act like you understand the rationale for the change and everyone's perception is just an exercise in futility.
 
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PatriotInvasion

macrumors 68000
Jul 18, 2010
1,643
1,048
Boston, MA
The nTB 13" MBP is in all but name a MacBook Air with retina screen. Or what specs should a have retina MBA have that would differ from the nTB 13" MBP? (And don't say the same but cheaper.)
[doublepost=1534492309][/doublepost]
So, Apple should just lower the price of the 13" nTB MacBook Pro ($1299) that currently offers:
  • 2560 x 1600 Retina display
  • Two USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 ports
  • 128 GB SSD up to 1 TB SSD
  • Dual Core i5 up to Core i7
  • 8 GB of RAM up to 16 GB
by $300 and add FaceID or TouchID?
[doublepost=1534493109][/doublepost]
You mean: Intel, where are the successors to the Kaby Lake processors currently used in the nTB MBP?
  • 7360U, 2.3 GHz (3.6 GHz Turbo), Iris Plus 640, 4 MB L3, 64 MB L4, 15 W TDP
  • 7660U, 2.5 GHz (4.0 GHz Turbo), Iris Plus 640, 4 MB L3, 64 MB L4, 15 W TDP
Wikipedia lists no 15-W TDP Coffee Lake processors. There are Kaby Lake R (refresh) 15-W TDP processors, but they only have UHD 620 graphics with no L4 cache.
[doublepost=1534494473][/doublepost]
To offer a Mac laptop at $999? The second-cheapest model costs $300 more.
I understand. My biggest issues with the non-Touch Bar MacBook Pro is that it shouldn't be marketed as a MacBook Pro. It makes it feel like it's the stop-gap SKU until the Touch Bar versions get less expensive. If it were simply marketed as a 13" MacBook and put in the 12" MacBook design (wedge shape, multiple color options) I'd personally feel a lot better about buying one. We'll see what happens.
 
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TheFluffyDuck

macrumors 6502a
Jul 26, 2012
741
1,859
I think it’s too simplistic in that there’s a ton of crossover between home/consumers and business/pros. Price is what stratifies the categories. If Jobs drew that matrix today, he might well use less expensive/more expensive instead of consumer/pro.

Additionally, people can handle having more than one choice. The matrix made perfect sense 20 years ago when Apple was drowning in a dozen product lines and needed to enforce discipline, but it’s very limiting.

Today:

iPad mini: more consumer than business (?)
iPad: consumer and business (also education)
iPad Pro: more business than consumer but lots of crossover

Mac mini: more consumer than business
iMac: consumer and business
iMac Pro/Mac Pro: mostly business with little crossover to consumer

Air/13” nTB: more consumer than business
MacBook: consumer and business
13” TB/15” MBP: more business than consumer, especially with the 15”

I completely disagree. There has always been overlap in the market. It is a complete mess, made worse by the fact that the hardware is now underpowered, and doesn't correlate with cost.

iPad Mini: Not
iPad: A
iPad Pro: Computer!

Mac Mini: Discontinued, let's not kid ourselves.
iMac: Gutless, so yeah, Consumer device
iMac Pro/Mac Pro: Updated on the same time frame as lunar eclipses. No professional can trust that cycle. Also INSANELY expensive.

Air: The same as a Macbook
Macbook: The same as an Air.
13" MBP: Has an Intel integrated graphics card only. A GPU that scores in the lowest 10th Percentile of GPUs on the market for nearly $4k when fully decked out. That's not professional. That is disrespect for the intelligence of the user.
15" MBP: Form over function with awful I/O, no expandability, questionable build quality, at tomorrows prices. Nope.

This is what is needed IMO:

Mac mini: Middling hardware at an affordable price. <$1000
iMac: Consumer computer with moderate hardware $1000-2500
Mac Pro: State of the art hardware with expandability, Professional I/O $2500-$5000

Macbook: Middling/moderate hardware, $1000-$1500
13" Macbook Pro: Moderate Hardware, with discreet graphics $1500-2500
15" Macbook Pro: State of the Art. No component older than 6 months old. Professional I/O $2500-$3500

Six machines, with a clear purpose, and price scaling with power and utility.
 

wlossw

macrumors 65816
May 9, 2012
1,109
1,164
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
"The nTB 13" MBP is in all but name a MacBook Air with retina screen. Or what specs should a have retina MBA have that would differ from the nTB 13" MBP? (And don't say the same but cheaper.)"

More ports and cheaper.
 

joeswamp

macrumors member
Feb 28, 2011
51
155
No...you're overthinking this. If the keyboard were terrible, it'd be gone.

The first three versions of this keyboard are gone. They are trying to save it but so far have been unsuccessful.

The butterfly keyboard reminds me of the hockey puck mouse, another design disaster. There are two differences: 1) they sunk a lot more money into developing this keyboard, so they're more motivated to try and save it, and 2) there's no Steve Jobs around to tell them to throw it away and start over.
 

CreeptoLoser

Suspended
Jul 28, 2018
369
333
Birmingham, Alabama
Can't wait to see the crazy iPad benchmarks. I just hate how no devs really take advantage of the power there. I know they have to support slower iOS devices but if they can truly offer console level graphics or desktop level apps they should. We keep seeing blocky 1987 level games and cut down apps with toy interfaces.
 

ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
6,783
11,084
Apple knows what they are doing and yes, companies can show you something is better that you didn't know. That's why good companies like Apple don't ask consumers what they want to see. Consumers don't know...you have to show them.
WOW. People like you are why Apple users get made fun of for just blindly buying anything Apple sells. I'm pretty sure Jony could take a dump on an aluminum platter and you'd go "wow, this is the future of computing and the rest of you just don't get it."
 

Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
WOW. People like you are why Apple users get made fun of for just blindly buying anything Apple sells. I'm pretty sure Jony could take a dump on an aluminum platter and you'd go "wow, this is the future of computing and the rest of you just don't get it."
No, I don’t think that’s the same thing.

People can make fun of Apple all they want...numbers don’t lie.
 

Yvan256

macrumors 603
Jul 5, 2004
5,080
991
Canada
No, I don’t think that’s the same thing.

People can make fun of Apple all they want...numbers don’t lie.
Numbers can lie. If people need a powerful Apple laptop, they don't have any choice but to buy a MacBook Pro and that means a butterfly keyboard. It doesn't mean those people actually like the keyboard. Some people may be buying their MacBook Pro despite the fact that they hate the keyboard.

The only way we could say "numbers don't lie" is if Apple offered two lines of MacBooks with exactly the same specifications (except laptop thickness) and one had the scissor keyboard while the other had the butterfly keyboard. Only then would the numbers mean anything.
 

pier

macrumors 6502a
Feb 7, 2009
579
950
I haven't had an issue with their new keyboard, nor has my wife, nor none of my employees who've I've deployed the new MBP to.

Not only that's anecdotal data, but everyone has different tastes for keyboards.
 

Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
Numbers can lie. If people need a powerful Apple laptop, they don't have any choice but to buy a MacBook Pro and that means a butterfly keyboard. It doesn't mean those people actually like the keyboard. Some people may be buying their MacBook Pro despite the fact that they hate the keyboard.

The only way we could say "numbers don't lie" is if Apple offered two lines of MacBooks with exactly the same specifications (except laptop thickness) and one had the scissor keyboard while the other had the butterfly keyboard. Only then would the numbers mean anything.
When the new Mac numbers come out in the earnings report, we will see how customers react. If customers buy the new products, they’ve made a judgement that they want to spend their money on it. They are going to sell a ton of the new MacBooks...butterfly and all because people don’t hate they keyboard like the vocal minority.

We can compare Mac sales over different years and make judgements. If someone buys a product, I assume they don’t hate critical features. You can make subjective statements all you want, but I’ll be looking at hard data.
 

pier

macrumors 6502a
Feb 7, 2009
579
950
One flaw in your logic....the “terrible” keyboard is only your opinion. If it were that bad, it’d be gone, period.

I’ve seen people on here say they prefer the new style...anecdotal, but proves it’s not universally hated.

The problem is not that it's universally terrible, but that it's polarizing. This didn't happen with previous keyboards which were universally loved.

Oh, and also that tiny little problem with keys not working properly.
 
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Baymowe335

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The problem is not that it's universally terrible, but that it's polarizing. This didn't happen with previous keyboards which were universally loved.

Oh, and also that tiny little problem with keys not working properly.
Yeah, on some machines...which Apple will fix for those impacted. We don't know how many are impacted, what is loved, what is hated. I just go by what's on the market. If it were universally hated, it'd be gone.
 
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