Apple Explains Why iPhone Mirroring Remains Unavailable in the EU on macOS Tahoe

[ProbablyDylan]

I’m more concerned with a bad actor sending files to Apple users, who are used to a secure system the EU has ripped away, especially since the EU is mandating a “click here to download the app to get this file” link.

Airdrop defaults and always reverts back to receiving from contacts only, meaning files can only be received from trusted sources. Additionally, said Apple user would still need to manually confirm the airdrop.

Can you explain how this becomes less secure? Or is it simple Android = not secure, in your eyes?

 

[surferfb]

Closedness is not a benefit. And not a beneficial choice. And when there’s only two relevant operating systems to begin with, neither is choice lost. On the other hand, the EU enables more choice in software - and more choice in peripheral hardware.

Not a benefit TO YOU. Millions of others see it a benefit. But the EU disagrees, so all most toe the party line. Less choice is more choice. Insecurity is secure! Big Brother knows best!

That doesn’t benefit me as a consumer.

My Mother in Law didn’t want a new cable. She held off on updating her phone precisely because new phones had USB-C, and when she finally did, she complained about needing to buy all new cords. What’s a benefit to you is a detriment to others. Which is why the government shouldn’t play nanny and make those choices for consumers. Apple knows its customers better than the EU.

Neither does having to choose between either a good (better) smartwatch with (more) features I like or good integration with my existing phone OS - just because Apple withholds connectivity and integration from competing smartwatch manufacturers.

If you don’t like how the minority market player runs its business, buy another product. Capitalism 101.

I want both: my preferred smartwatch with my preferred features - and good integration with my phone.
And that also ensures healthy competition in the smartwatch market - it benefits consumers.

There was healthy competition in the smartwatch market long before the DMA existed.

Again, just because you want iOS and a Samsung smartwatch doesn’t mean you deserve one any more than someone who wants a Tesla that runs on gas deserves Tesla to make them one.

👉 monocultures do not benefit consumers

Again. You don’t deserve to have your cake and eat it to just because you want it. Especially when Android exists.

And that’s why the EU leaves most features and characteristics of products (including pricing) up to markets and competition.

They’re just gently smoothing out the most anticompetitive “rough edges” (which were created by largest, dominant companies) in the market through limited regulation.

No, they’re taking choice away from consumers who have different presences front the government. Which is why the EU has no innovation - they push monoculture and government orthodoxy.

 

[surferfb]

Airdrop defaults and always reverts back to receiving from contacts only, meaning files can only be received from trusted sources. Additionally, said Apple user would still need to manually confirm the airdrop.

Can you explain how this becomes less secure? Or is it simple Android = not secure, in your eyes?

I don’t think it is good for consumers for someone to be able to be presented with a dialogue that prompts them to download third party app just because someone is trying to send them a file. We’ve had issues on our transit system with unsolicited AirDrops leading to people receiving unwanted nudes, for example.

Now imagine they get request leads to downloading apps from a third party store that has terrible privacy or security policies. Or malware. While I know not to click “accept” or just download a file because someone asks me, not everyone is technically savvy.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

I don’t think it is good for consumers for someone to be able to be presented with a dialogue that prompts them to download third party app just because someone is trying to send them a file. We’ve had issues on our transit system with unsolicited AirDrops leading to people receiving unwanted nudes, for example.

So the superior solution is to leave things as is, users on different platforms shouldn't be able to directly share when near each other? Make the file bounce off some server?

And hasn't that unsolicited airdrop issue been solved by making it revert back to contacts-only after 10min no matter what? This has been the case since iOS 16.2.

 

[Macusercom]

What everyone seems to be missing is that Apple doesn't need to develop it for alternative platforms but make the APIs available so others can use it.

So someone needs to be able to develop a Windows app for iPhone mirroring. Doesn't mean that Apple needs to provide a Windows app themselves.

The EU only wants services like Parsec or TeamViewer to also be able to use said feature and not hide it behind macOS

 

[Haiku_Oezu]

“might force them to offer Android mirroring to the Mac”

I’m pretty sure you can already do that, if you have Android Studio you can use your android phone on the sidebar so that you can test your app on real hardware without fiddling with your phone

Google could easily package this feature in a nice wrapper and make it consumer friendly without any intervention from Apple

 

[AppliedMicro]

If you don’t like how the minority market player runs its business, buy another product. Capitalism 101.

The issue is that there's a lack of differentiated competition.
That - and only that - is why I consider government intervention is warranted and appropriate.

Which is why the EU has no innovation - they push monoculture

Quite the opposite:

• Different purchasing options for apps and in-app transactions.
• Enabling other manufacturers' smartwatches to interoperate in new, better, meaningful ways with iOS
• Enabling ad-hoc wireless file transfer options that can be cross-platform compatible

👉 That's all new less monoculture and more choice - and enabling more innovation in these respective markets/apps

And the monoculturists, consumers that prefer everything from Apple, can still get it all from Apple.

I don’t think it is good for consumers for someone to be able to be presented with a dialogue that prompts them to download third party app just because someone is trying to send them a file

I wasn't a problem - at least Apple did not perceive it as one - when it was Apple's proprietary system that does it.

We’ve had issues on our transit system with unsolicited AirDrops leading to people receiving unwanted nudes, for example.

That too, wasn't a problem when Apple's proprietary system did it.
Also, Apple has to allow alternative wireless file-transfer options to let users restrict them to contacts only.

 

[surferfb]

What everyone seems to be missing is that Apple doesn't need to develop it for alternative platforms but make the APIs available so others can use it.

So someone needs to be able to develop a Windows app for iPhone mirroring. Doesn't mean that Apple needs to provide a Windows app themselves.

The EU only wants services like Parsec or TeamViewer to also be able to use said feature and not hide it behind macOS

Not missing that at all. It’s a huge security and privacy issue to let third parties completely control the device. Apple is right to withhold it if the EU says “if Apple can do it, anyone who wants to gets to too.”

 

[surferfb]

The issue is that there's a lack of differentiated competition.

Plenty of competition - just because you have ruled out 72% of the phones on the market doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

That - and only that - is why I consider government intervention is warranted and appropriate.

Quite the opposite:

• Different purchasing options for apps and in-app transactions.
• Enabling other manufacturers' smartwatches to interoperate in new, better, meaningful ways with iOS
• Enabling ad-hoc wireless file transfer options that can be cross-platform compatible

None of that rises to the level of “requires government intervention to dictate how a company’s hardware and software works”, particularly when the market leader with 72% of the market allows all of that.

👉 That's all new less monoculture and more choice - and enabling more innovation in these respective markets/apps

No, it’s government declaring choice of closed ecosystem is verboten because they think big brother knows better than Apple and its users. The hubris!

And the monoculturists, consumers that prefer everything from Apple, can still get it all from Apple.

Why isn’t the EU forcing all the European Car companies to offer CarPlay 2 even if they don’t want to? Apple deserves access BMW and Mercedes and Fiat’s customers.

Or is that only a problem when it’s a US company with a valuable customer base that isn’t integrating?

I wasn't a problem - at least Apple did not perceive it as one - when it was Apple's proprietary system that does it.

I trust Apple. I don’t trust “Safe File Transfer” made by Chinese shell company that now gets a “click here to download our app” if someone tries to send them a file. I also think a significant minority of users aren’t sophisticated enough to understand the risks, and many of them choose Apple because they know Apple is safe and secure.

But the EU doesn’t care about that. If users get scammed that’s too bad, Apple’s competitors deserve free stuff! The people who gave us Crowdstrike haven’t learned their lesson and are philosophically opposed to the free market.

That too, wasn't a problem when Apple's proprietary system did it.Also, Apple has to allow alternative wireless file-transfer options to let users restrict them to contacts only.

Apple addressed the issue. But I don’t trust third party companies, particularly sketchy ones hosted on third party app stores, to abide by the user’s preferences.

Android has so much more malware than iOS - and the EU is saying “there’s no justification for Apple being closed” - there’s your justification.

But no - they continue to insist free market doesn’t know better than the EU - all while they wonder why no innovation comes out of the continent despite their great universities and bigger population than the US.

And like Crowdstrike, they’ll pretend they’re not at fault and blame others when their regulations directly harm their citizens.

 

[surferfb]

So the superior solution is to leave things as is, users on different platforms shouldn't be able to directly share when near each other? Make the file bounce off some server?

The solution is not to have the government come in and dictate how Apple’s OS works. That is so far beneath what a government should be focusing on its laughable.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Plenty of competition - just because you have ruled out 72% of the phones on the market doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

72% of phones is meaningless.
I can only choose between one of two operating systems.

Or is that only a problem when it’s a US company with a valuable customer base that isn’t integrating?

No - it's a problem when it's duopoly of companies (with non-overlapping user bases) that stifle competition.
Which is unlike the car industry.

I trust Apple. I don’t trust “Safe File Transfer” made by Chinese shell company that now gets a “click here to download our app” if someone tries to send them a file.

You don't have to use it.

The people who gave us Crowdstrike haven’t learned their lesson

Come, let's not get carried away, shall we?
The people who gave us Crowdstrike was the crowdstrike people. Not the EU.

I also think a significant minority of users aren’t sophisticated enough to understand the risks, and many of them choose Apple because they know Apple is safe and secure.

And I believe, they either can distinguish an Apple App Store download from a third-party store download - or won't be sophisticated to install from a third-party store anyway.

And by the way (I'm repeating myself): Nothing preventing Apple from releasing an AirDrop app for Android, is there?

I don’t trust “Safe File Transfer” made by Chinese shell company that now gets a “click here to download our app” if someone tries to send them a file

👉 And yet, there are tons of such apps on the Apple App Store. Why?

Because again, Apple takes little issue with such apps - as long as they pass their superficial checks. And make them money.

On the other hand, there can be - and there already are! - application "stores" that are much more selectively curated than Apple's (e.g. SetApp).

I don’t trust third party companies, particularly sketchy ones hosted on third party app stores, to abide by the user’s preferences.

Android has so much more malware than iOS - and the EU is saying “there’s no justification for Apple being closed” - there’s your justification.

Apple reserves the right to audit and approve any app for distribution - whether on a third-party store or their own.

And like Crowdstrike, they’ll pretend they’re not at fault and blame others when their regulations directly harm their citizens.

They don't "directly" harm citizens.
Faulty device drivers or pre-boot encryption/security software can prevent Windows from booting.
That's it. And there are many such types of software available - EU regulation or not.

 

[AppliedMicro]

• "Sideloading, execution of code not reviewed by Apple is dangerous"
  👉 And yet, it's been available (and has been abused) for many years - cause Apple really likes those enterprise sales. It's supposedly only a security risk when others use it to commercially distribute apps
  
  
• "Links that prompt users to download apps from a store upon having received them are dangerous.
  👉 And yet, they've also been available (and has been abused) for many years. It's supposedly only a security risk when it doesn't lock in customers to Apple's proprietary platform and protocol.
  
  
• "DMA's requirements could allow data-hungry companies to bypass Apple's privacy rules and track users without their consent." (Tim Cook)
  👉 And yet, Apple has been free to break, violate and ignore their own rules, when it comes to their own "Ads" network. With them being cagey to document or admit it. It's supposedly only an issue when it concerns third parties that compete with Apple.
  
  
• "Apps by anonymous Chinese developers are sketchy and can't be trusted"
  👉 And yet, Apple has had no problem with admitting them to their own store indiscriminately. If only money can be made through distributing them. They're supposedly only dangerous when they distributed elsewhere (even though they remain reviewed by Apple)
  
  
• "Requiring app developers to provide trader information (contact info and address) is government overreach and a privacy risk."
  👉 Yet funnily enough, many of the same commenters railed against that legislation - who were previously or otherwise concerned about scam apps, software from fly-by-night developers, malicious actors, Chinese companies etc.. As if it’s all no issue when it happens on Apple’s terms.
• 
  
• "People may get scammed by in-app transactions through their credit cards. Only Apple's in-app purchasing system can keep us save"
  👉 And yet, Apple has had no problem with tons of apps that use it on a daily basis. And neither have consumers have an issue with ordering their Pizzas or Ubers in-app. With their credit cards. Nor are they "confused" by which payment method is supported by Apple and which is not. It supposedly only a problem when it affects Apple's ability to impose a 30% tax on companies that can't escape it (cause Uber and the Pizza apps could build a web app instead).
  
  
• "But what about the children? Think about the children!"
  👉 Well, Apple has had no issues with advertising expensive pay-to-win games in their App Store, clearly targeting a young audience. They've also had no problem authenticating in-app purchases with a mere fingerprint (whereas I believe children are much more likely to have registered their fingerprint on a shared iPad. Or have their parents' payment card registered in the Apple account they're using to download apps - as opposed to actually knowing their parents' credit card data). It supposedly only a problem when someone else processes out a transaction for game content other than Apple.

 

[Vlad Soare]

How is the restriction implemented? Based on the current location of the Mac? Or on the country the Apple account is registered in?

 

[AppliedMicro]

macOS / Macs are not a regulated core platform service.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

macOS / Macs are not a regulated core platform service.

Well more of the American Mac & iPhone owner if it happens to end up in eu.

How is the restriction implemented? Based on the current location of the Mac? Or on the country the Apple account is registered in?

Probably same thing as sideloading 🤷‍♂️

 

[tranceme]

The one that is hurting customers is the one that withhold features - without the law requiring them to.

MKade zero sense. Typically EU response.

 

[Unami]

How is the restriction implemented? Based on the current location of the Mac? Or on the country the Apple account is registered in?

Location of the Mac. I'm currently on holiday outside the EU and my Mac asked me to activate the feature (after one week). Now it's working, I just don't know what to do with it . I'm curious if it will still work if I get back home, as it's activated now, but I guess not. I'll try with a VPN then. Kind of a strange experience, Apple locking a fully functioning feature just based on my current location, not on the country of origin of my apple accoung. Makes me feel watched - and wonder if there's a terminal command or hack that could make it work - not that I need it, but just because.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Not a bit surprised, EU DMA regulation stinks.
Good move Apple!

so you think it'd be a bad thing for iPhone users to be able to use iPhone mirroring on windows, or android users to use mirroring on a Mac? Both of those things would be good for Apple users...

 

[Populus]

so you think it'd be a bad thing for iPhone users to be able to use iPhone mirroring on windows, or android users to use mirroring on a Mac? Both of those things would be good for Apple users...

But very difficult from the technical standpoint, given that Apple should prepare different smartphone layouts for macOS to show them (if we think about the absurd number of Android interfaces, there could be hundreds!), or, in the case of Windows, to put in Microsoft shoulders the burden to code a macOS native feature onto Windows 11.

The EU can dictate that Apple must enable the feature on Android and Windows for their interoperability, and they may be unaware of the technical challenge it represents for a company that has such level of integration on their ecosystem.

 

[jz0309]

so you think it'd be a bad thing for iPhone users to be able to use iPhone mirroring on windows, or android users to use mirroring on a Mac? Both of those things would be good for Apple users...

What is the incentive for apple to do that? They're a business ... Sure, lots of iPhone users have windows computers but with no understanding why hat integration would entail, again, what's the incentive for Apple?
And Android on Mac? Mac is already a niche, 10% market share at best. majority of Mac users use iPhone, so for the <1% of all Android users who might want that - what's in it for Apple?

 

[MilaM]

But no - they continue to insist free market doesn’t know better than the EU - all while they wonder why no innovation comes out of the continent despite their great universities and bigger population than the US.

You can keep your free markets in the US if you want. Nobody is telling the US what to do. It seems to work out for you very well in areas like health care and education.

I'm just wondering, why is it so hard for you to accept, that societies around the world have different ideas about how capitalism should work? If EU rules are so onerous and bad for business, US tech companies should just pull out of the EU.

 

[okkibs]

I think y’all are missing the point. There are many more iPhone users than Mac users as Windows has the single largest share of users even outside of business environments. Why should an iPhone user with a Windows computer not be able to use the mirroring feature? Furthermore, the regulatory body isn’t asking Apple to develop Android display mirroring for Google. This is merely about Apple not blocking such a mirroring app if Google released one on the Mac App Store.

Do you really find these requests to be so out of line?

You can certainly argue that Apple cannot deliver such software for Windows in a secure fashion like they do on the Mac that runs an OS fully under their control. And guess what? I’d agree with you! I don’t think this is fair to ask from a technical programming point of view. But it certainly would make sense for a regulatory body to make sure all iPhone users can use their iPhones to the full extent even without a Mac.

I am not taking anyone’s side and if anything I am leaning towards Apple’s because if I were them I wouldn’t want to be forced to write software for the trash that’s windows. But I can see why someone would ask that and especially law makers who are not in IT themselves and wouldn’t know if what they’re asking is feasible.

 

[surferfb]

You can keep your free markets in the US if you want. Nobody is telling the US what to do. It seems to work out for you very well in areas like health care and education.

I'm just wondering, why is it so hard for you to accept, that societies around the world have different ideas about how capitalism should work? If EU rules are so onerous and bad for business, US tech companies should just pull out of the EU.

It’s not hard for me to accept, I used to live in the EU, and my brother still does and recently became a citizen of an EU country.

The point is whether the DMA’s approach actually benefits consumers and innovation, or whether it ends up reducing choice, slowing product development, and raising costs. I think the answer is clearly and resoundingly the latter. It is an unusually prescriptive law, essentially dictating product design choices to private companies, and despite your claims otherwise, negatively impacts my devices here in the US.

What happens in the EU doesn’t say in the EU. Because it’s impractical to maintain entirely separate product lines or software builds, changes forced by the DMA often spill over to users worldwide. And it leads to copycat regulations all over the world because other regulators say “hey - I want to regulate too.” So the EU isn’t just regulating its own market, it’s effectively exporting its model globally, even to users who never voted for it. Which makes it even more important to ask whether it truly helps consumers and innovation, or whether it creates costs and unintended consequences that everyone ends up living with.

So yes, the EU can take its own approach. But I’m still allowed to point out that I don’t think that approach achieves what it claims it’s going to do, and that it creates unintended downsides for both companies and users far outside of the EU.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

But very difficult from the technical standpoint, given that Apple should prepare different smartphone layouts for macOS to show them (if we think about the absurd number of Android interfaces, there could be hundreds!), or, in the case of Windows, to put in Microsoft shoulders the burden to code a macOS native feature onto Windows 11.

The EU can dictate that Apple must enable the feature on Android and Windows for their interoperability, and they may be unaware of the technical challenge it represents for a company that has such level of integration on their ecosystem.

Apple just has the API for communicating with macOS, that's all they need to provide. It's up to the smartphone makers to properly implement it. At the same time, if Apple provides a tool for iCloud syncing for microsoft, I fail to see why they can't provide an app to mirror the iPhone...

 

[Contact_Feanor]

What is the incentive for apple to do that? They're a business ... Sure, lots of iPhone users have windows computers but with no understanding why hat integration would entail, again, what's the incentive for Apple?
And Android on Mac? Mac is already a niche, 10% market share at best. majority of Mac users use iPhone, so for the <1% of all Android users who might want that - what's in it for Apple?

The incentive is happy iPhone customers in Europe? Making the best possible product? What they claim to do?
They don't have to provide any android thingy, just the API and protocol that smartphone vendors can implement if they want to mirror to the Mac. They needn't make the android app/implementation themselves...