Apple Exploring New Glass Panel MacBook Keyboards That Could End Sticky Key Problems

[curtvaughan]

In my opinion the best keyboard design was the concave silver keys on the 2006-2008 Macbook Pro and 2003-2005 PowerBook G4. They were smooth as butter, super easy to find the home row and any key without looking, and I believe no thicker than the newer unibody Macbook Pro keyboard.

Yeah, my old MBP (1,1) from 2006 still has a beautifully functional keyboard. I rarely use that old machine anymore, as it was long ago "vintaged" by Apple, and even 32-bit Linux is becoming rare to replace outdated OSX Maverick. But that old keyboard and the display still remain top notch on a 13-year old machine. Apple's longtime great reputation was built on products like that MBP - high end quality, functionality, and reliability at a justifiably high price. And if something ever rarely went wrong with such hardware, Apple readily stood behind the product with good service and repair (never needed it for that old MBP - had to replace its removable battery twice over the years, and its power cable once due to fraying).

 

[sunapple]

In order to acquire the experience you mention, at least to a degree to possibly induce keyboard failure, one would have to spend $2000 or so on one of these laptops. If a product develops a reputation as a "lemon" and a high risk investment, people will avoid buying the product and complain about the company which produces it. You don't have to experience a hurricane in order to judge a hurricane to be a dangerous thing.

Plenty of people here judge the typing experience of these keyboards without actually having used them. Just like some think the XR has a pixelated display but have not seen it IRL.

Keyboard failure on the other hand could be judged by a series of facts that we’ve seen here. That is not something I’m ignoring or denying.

The topic is a kind of glass keyboard that could replace the current keyboards. That could be exciting if you imagine it being superior to what we know, yet the most-liked comments just want to travel back in time to 2015 when everything was perfect. Remind me, what does Apple charge if one of those 2015 keyboards break?

 

[LeoFio]

I'll take the 2005 Powerbook G4 keyboard

 

[sunapple]

Right, but the assumption we can gather from the patent is that they're aggressively moving toward thinner, fewer moving parts, less traditional. Again this looks like an evolution of their current technology, rather than moving in the direction of appeasing the user who has decried the changes of the 2016 keyboard. And as you implied, the 2015 models' keyboard wasn't perfect -- but that's where I would've spent my energy. Making that experience better, since it was one of the major aspects of using that device that was uniformly appreciated by most professionals. Improve the keys, make them less wobbly, provide better, more accurate actuation, etc.

Which is exactly what they did with the new keyboards. You have used those right?

 

[curtvaughan]

Plenty of people here judge the typing experience of these keyboards without actually having used them. Just like some think the XR has a pixelated display but have not seen it IRL.

Keyboard failure on the other hand could be judged by a series of facts that we’ve seen here. That is not something I’m ignoring or denying.

The topic is a kind of glass keyboard that could replace the current keyboards. That could be exciting if you imagine it being superior to what we know, yet the most-liked comments just want to travel back in time to 2015 when everything was perfect. Remind me, what does Apple charge if one of those 2015 keyboards break?

Looks like Amazon offers those keyboards for around $20 if you want to replace it yourself. I don't know what the charge would be if Apple did the replacement.

 

[avkills]

**** this ****. Apple trying to fix everything that isn't broken instead of spending time on **** that needs fixing like releasing a viable machine for professional content creators and scientists to use.

 

[Silverjerk]

Which is exactly what they did with the new keyboards. You have used those right?

Yes, extensively. As I stated in my original post, I'm a UX designer and developer working in the startup space. I bought the 2016 model at launch, and spent a year with it until buying the 2017 model. I work 12-16 hours a day, sometimes 6 days a week. To say I have a leg to stand on when it comes to personal experience with the butterfly switches is an understatement. And you completely missed the point I was making at the end of my reply. They didn't IMPROVE the keys, they redesigned them (whether the redesign is an improvement is totally subjective, and as seen here there are many users who dislike the new design). I would've preferred an iteration of the old keyboards with the aforementioned improvements made there.

 

[AnonMac50]

Some of the best keyboards I'd ever used were the ones in the Aluminium non-unibody Macbook Pros and PowerBook G4s, just amazing stuff. The other great ones were the chiclet keyboards on the non-retina MacBooks and MacBook Pros. The rMBP I have is a huge downgrade in my opinion, but is still miles ahead of these new Macs...

 

[sunapple]

Looks like Amazon offers those keyboards for around $20 if you want to replace it yourself. I don't know what the charge would be if Apple did the replacement.

Not so quickly, this repair requires you to take apart the entire top case. Apple would charge way north of 200$ for that, and doing it yourself is described by iFixit as ‘difficult’. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBoo...id+2015+Upper+Case+Assembly+Replacement/56281

My point, that design is far from perfect and simply keeping the old design does not help with that. The new keyboards were a mess, but improved in some other areas. The patents may lead to something better than what we had, who knows.

 

[GuruZac]

Lenovo beat them to this—the Yoga Book already has a glass keyboard called the Halo Keyboard. Reviewers say it is like typing on the glass screen of a tablet, despite the “haptic feedback.” No kidding.

The idea is that it can be used as a keyboard and with an electronic pen(cil). In reality, the keyboard is only as useful as a tablet’s keyboard, i.e. it is not useful for typing anything longer than a short e-mail or text.

Apple continues to borrow the worst failures of other manufacturers and use them in its design—first the TouchBar and now a sheet of glass for all input. If I wanted that, I would buy an iPad—oh, wait....

I guess this is Apple’s vision—a combination tablet and laptop running on an ARM core the battery life of which can be manipulated by Apple (notice no iPads display battery life and no third party battery apps function with iOS 12) and the OS of which must be upgraded into (planned) obsolescence.




You must not type much.... This is a terrible idea from an ergonomic and sensory [tactile] feedback perspective.

Actually I type quite a bit for school. It’s a preference.

 

[curtvaughan]

This is also the case when watching many Microsoft conferences. The VSCode conference specifically, the presenter is using a 2015 MBP. It's both oddly ironic, and also refreshing, considering they have no qualms about it.

I'm not surprised that MS would be particularly flexible to folks using Apple hardware for their personal use - MS has, at least in the past, been primarily a software company producing OS software which works across many hardware platforms, including Intel based Macs. I worked for a large university where IT folks were pretty much laissez faire about staff hardware choices for personal use. The university generally furnished desktops and workstations needed for support of one's particular job specialty. Over my last 22 years I supported Unix, VMS, and Windows software/hardware, so had Sun workstations, DEC VAX workstations, an Alpha workstation, and finally PC desktops furnished by the university. It was only in the 2000's that laptops began to be used widely by faculty and IT staff. When Macs shifted to Intel hardware, there was a large migration to Apple for personal use, especially by Windows staff. The university would only buy Apple hardware for Apple support staff, since it was so much more expensive than comparable PCs.

 

[skinned66]

That's a lofty patent diagram. Bet we don't see that deforming version for the first iteration, if ever.

 

[Kabeyun]

And the computers we want!

Actually, I’m absolutely loving my new mini.

 

[oneMadRssn]

Yeah, my old MBP (1,1) from 2006 still has a beautifully functional keyboard. I rarely use that old machine anymore, as it was long ago "vintaged" by Apple, and even 32-bit Linux is becoming rare to replace outdated OSX Maverick. But that old keyboard and the display still remain top notch on a 13-year old machine. Apple's longtime great reputation was built on products like that MBP - high end quality, functionality, and reliability at a justifiably high price. And if something ever rarely went wrong with such hardware, Apple readily stood behind the product with good service and repair (never needed it for that old MBP - had to replace its removable battery twice over the years, and its power cable once due to fraying).

Agreed - those were great. For me, keyboard noise is actually one of the top things I care about. I want my keyboard to be as close to silent as possible. Those silver keyboards were very quiet - noticeably quieter than the newer black chiclet keyboards. So I'm actually happy Apple addressed that in v3 of the butterfly keyboard, though it is still louder than the silver keyboard imo.

However, since you brought up repairing that generation of MBPs - it was a nightmare. One thing the unibody design did was make all the parts far more accessible. Sure the sealed design and proprietary screws are a pain, but once you open the top it's all very easy in there. The first-gen MBP was a rats nest of super thin cables with very delicate connectors running between layers upon layers of boards and components. There must have been hundreds of little screws in there, compared to two dozen or so in the unibody design.

 

[KPOM]

ooh even less travel. Possibly 0 travel keyboards.

Nothing says touch typing like a total lack of tactile feedback.

I think I need to stock up on some of the old desktop keyboards before they disappear. The keyboard from 2008-butterfly was by far the best keyboard I have ever used. Seems strange they forgot how important keyboard feel is. HCI is supposed to be apples wheel house.

If they do as good a job with the new keyboard as they did with the trackpad, it would be better than a physical keyboard since it would give them the flexibility they sought with the Touch Bar.
[doublepost=1549302977][/doublepost]

The easiest solution is to take a step back and return to the 2015 design - who would care other than a few people within Apple who would have to eat humble pie. Pushing on with glass keyboards is just going down the rabbit hole of excessive design for the sake of it - now at the expense of durability and therefore device longevity. This is leading to massive costs on a relatively simple but fundamental component of a laptop.

A glass keyboard might be more reliable and durable. Look at the trackpad that now has no hinge to break.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

What about the fact that the new keyboards are terrible to type on for longer periods of time? Apple went from the best keyboard design in the industry to the worst in a single year.

And it looks like they are trying to figure out a reasonable, and permanent, fix for the issue.
[doublepost=1549303180][/doublepost]

Dumb. Why don't they just go back to the previous keyboard design on the 2015 MBP's? It was perfect! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well, now it's broke.

You think it was "Perfect". I would guess that others would disagree.

Apple rarely, if ever, goes "back". They are trying to go "forward" to a better design than both of those alternatives.

 

[justperry]

I still don't like my 2013's keyboard, and the current one is almost unuseable for me. I understand we can't have a mechanical keyboard in a notebook like in the '80s, but come on!
Several notebooks from 15-20 years ago had very good keyboards, and they don't take that much more thickness anyway (the keyboards, not the notebooks, obvioulsy).
BTW, when I can I use a full size mechanical keyboard. MX blue or clear. Just love 'em.

Erm....the MB(P) keyboard before the butterfly design had the best keyboards ever on any Laptop, that's just a couple of years ago.

 

[NT1440]

**** this ****. Apple trying to fix everything that isn't broken instead of spending time on **** that needs fixing like releasing a viable machine for professional content creators and scientists to use.

...the patents for all touch haptic feedback keyboards started almost a decade ago from Apple. This isn’t a *response* to the butterfly keyboard. Your anger is misplaced.

 

[KPOM]

The most expensive millimiters in history!!
Thinner that not mean better if it cripples functionality.

GO BACK TO THE OLD DESIGN...!

and while you are at it, bring back the MAG-SAFE

There are $25 adapters on Amazon that bring back Mag-Safe-like functionality to USB-C cables and still support data transfer.

 

[AnonMac50]

Erm....the keyboard before the butterfly design had the best keyboards ever on any Laptop, that's just a couple of years ago.

Best is subjective. As much as I prefer the one on 2013 15” over the one on the 2017 13” that I use very frequently, I still think the 2013 one wasn’t great. No where near as good as the cMBPs before it or the non unibody MBPs and Aluminium PB G4’s I have/had. Difference is night and day, and I’d much rather have those than this any day.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

I’m all for innovation but in this situation I’d say to just go back to the old design....all this mess to avoid admitting a mistake and to shave a few millimetres of thickness off the laptop

I'm pretty sure that the "thinness" of the new designs isn't the primary design-feature. It is merely a side-effect of the construction.

Actually, a glass keyboard with keytops would be the best of all worlds: Keep the tactile feel, while making a truly dirt and moisture-proof design. And if they play their cards right, they get to have programmable keyboard keytops, which everybody likes...
[doublepost=1549303526][/doublepost]

Clearly apple learned nothing from the IBM PCjr keyboard....

The PC Jr. keyboard was a simple membrane keyboard, IIRC. This is much more sophisticated.
[doublepost=1549303628][/doublepost]

Exactly this!

Here's an 'out there' thought, Apple, just develop (or go back to) a non-exotic KB that's actually nice to type on and doesn't break.

Brilliant!

I'm sure Apple's Engineers haven't thought of those design considerations...
[doublepost=1549303984][/doublepost]

ooh even less travel. Possibly 0 travel keyboards.

Nothing says touch typing like a total lack of tactile feedback.

I think I need to stock up on some of the old desktop keyboards before they disappear. The keyboard from 2008-butterfly was by far the best keyboard I have ever used. Seems strange they forgot how important keyboard feel is. HCI is supposed to be apples wheel house.

It looks to me that Apple was trying to side-step that non-tactile objection. Obviously, they could just put a relatively low-resolution capacitive-touch panel on the MBP and call it done. But people would (rather rightly) complain about "no feel". So they are trying to get the best of both worlds.

Now, if you look at the LCARS panels on ST:TNG, all of those are supposed to be non-tactile glass-looking touchscreens. But, no one is seen typing a term-paper on one of those (they would simply use dictation, I assume). Plus, by that time, the crew of the Enterprise have presumably had generations-worth of "getting used to" non-tactile control surfaces.
[doublepost=1549304170][/doublepost]

ooh even less travel. Possibly 0 travel keyboards.

Nothing says touch typing like a total lack of tactile feedback.

I think I need to stock up on some of the old desktop keyboards before they disappear. The keyboard from 2008-butterfly was by far the best keyboard I have ever used. Seems strange they forgot how important keyboard feel is. HCI is supposed to be apples wheel house.

Actually, I think that if the reliability issues hadn't come up, people would have largely just "gotten used to" the feel of the new keyboards. In fact, I have read several posts online where people said they hated it at first, but then grew to really like the low-travel keyboards.
[doublepost=1549304253][/doublepost]

Solve the keyboard problem by eliminating the keyboard. Genius.

They’re progressively moving away from the keyboard we want.

Right. You mean an IBM Model "M", right?

 

[sunapple]

Yes, extensively. As I stated in my original post, I'm a UX designer and developer working in the startup space. I bought the 2016 model at launch, and spent a year with it until buying the 2017 model. I work 12-16 hours a day, sometimes 6 days a week. To say I have a leg to stand on when it comes to personal experience with the butterfly switches is an understatement.

Okay, didn't know, wanted to check.

And you completely missed the point I was making at the end of my reply. They didn't IMPROVE the keys, they redesigned them (whether the redesign is an improvement is totally subjective, and as seen here there are many users who dislike the new design). I would've preferred an iteration of the old keyboards with the aforementioned improvements made there.

They are now subjectively less wobbly and more accurate, so that means they did improve the keyboard. That's not the part people dislike, but it's a part that doesn't get credit.

In the process, the also reduced travel in a quest to make it thinner. Less travel has been the story for every new keyboard from Apple of the last decades and I very much understand that everyone has a personal preference because they are used to a certain kind. It sucks for those people that they can't have their beloved travel, I get it.

On top of that, they now seem less reliable.

So accuracy, travel and reliability. Do you agree these are the main points that make a keyboard great?

Right, but the assumption we can gather from the patent is that they're aggressively moving toward thinner, fewer moving parts, less traditional. Again this looks like an evolution of their current technology, rather than moving in the direction of appeasing the user who has decried the changes of the 2016 keyboard.

Traditional doesn't equal better. Fewer moving parts can make them that much more reliable. And if the keyboard is as stable and accurate as the current ones, that part will be alright as well because I think that's not where their current technology lacks.

Then the last one of the three parts would be travel. Speculation of all glass touch-screen keyboards has been around for some time, especially after Touch Bar. This patent however describes a glass surface with travel and tactile keys.

I dove into the patent and noticed they were talking about implementing Force Touch technology as well which didn't get much attention in the article. Clicking the Force Touch trackpad gives a sense of travel, what if you pair that with the actual travel of these glass keys? Who can say whether travel will be an improvement, be the same or be worse than the current gen?

[0151] The device 1900 may also include one or more actuators 1912. The actuators 1912 may include one or more of a variety of haptic technologies such as, but not necessarily limited to, mechanical actuators, solenoids, hydraulic actuators, cams, piezoelectric devices, magnetic actuators, and so on. In general, the actuators 1912 may be configured to provide returning forces to key regions of a glass top case and/or to provide distinct feedback (e.g., tactile clicks) to a user of the device. For example, the actuators 1912 may be adapted to produce a knock or tap sensation and/or a vibration sensation, to produce a biasing force that biases a protrusion towards an undepressed position, or the like.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

For someone who uses a mechanical keyboard whenever possible, this move would turn me even further away from Apple’s laptop offerings. Guess I better hold on to my 2012 rMBP that much longer!

Laptop keyboards has ALWAYS been a compromise for aficionados of long-travel mechanical keyboards (like the famous IBM Model "M"). It's just the way it has always been.

That being said, Apple is at least looking at some fresh approaches to the problem, and is trying to solve several issues while still providing a reasonable tactile experience.

 

[nt5672]

When the new butterfly keyboard was first introduced on the MacBook, it took me less than 5 minutes to notice that the shallow, almost flat buttons that have very little travel when you press are much less comfortable to type on than the keyboard it was replacing. Maybe it’s because it’s California, but I really wonder sometimes how some things that should be obviously digressive get green lit all the way through r&d and then by the execs to make it in the the products that are being sold.

Because it is cheaper to make. Remember you have a finance guy running the show, not a tech guy. Not only that, but everything that requires a keyboard (Cook only uses an iPad) to be used by the finance guy gets done by an assistant.

 

[ikir]

What about the fact that the new keyboards are terrible to type on for longer periods of time? Apple went from the best keyboard design in the industry to the worst in a single year.

Me and my workmates totally loves that and we type a lot.