Apple Extends Non-Disclosure to App Store Rejection Letters

[lucasgladding]

I do wonder however, is there really no way for a dev to contact apple and say "hey, here's my idea and this is what I wanted to do - would it be allowed"?

+1

How is it that the web is up in arms about the approval process when this simple question has not been answered by anyone? I have spoken to Apple about issues on the phone and via email, though getting through is difficult on both fronts.

Seriously, we don't know the whole picture here, so how about sticking to asking Apple to lift the NDA before we start accusing them of being anti-competitive. How about we make Friday the official "send Apple an email demanding they remove the NDA" day .

 

[Ravenholme]

I'm probably one of the cadalysts to this lol, anyway the fact of the matter is I'm all for it because this is to filter out all those malicious & copyright infringing applications. like that NVader game that was clearly Taito Corp's Space Invaders (copyright infringement) then there are those apps that do the same thing that the iPod touch / iPhone already does and doesn't improve upon functions and is just a cash grab. This doesn't block new innovative apps, nor the official ones from the big & small Developers. So the guy was walking on the thin line when he did that podcasting app. You can't blame Apple for reacting to it, the guy was filling what was missing in the ipod touch / iphone but in a way it's Apple's own fault I suppose. Anyway everyone has their opinion on this, I personally support protection of intellectual property.

A free for all store like Google's Android Market is a mess waiting to happen.

 

[AlphaBob]

Apple hiding head in sand

Reminds me of the policy that certain churches had internally of never discussing child molestation cases. That certainly eventually backfired in a huge way.

I would suggest that Apple is hiding its head in the sand here and hoping a cloak of secrecy will allow something to not blow up in their face. If that is the case I would think they are sadly mistaken and it will only cause more damage in the long-run than by being open and forthright from the beginning.

Why do people NEVER learn?

 

[fat phil]

I would think their rules about mirroring a feature that Apple already has would be clear enough that you'd realize that you couldn't make any kind of mail app. Nor can you make something that mirrors anything from iTunes (that includes podcasts obviously - I mean they are called "pod" casts because Apple was the one to popularize it). I would also suspect that a yahoo map application might not be allowed. I do wonder however, is there really no way for a dev to contact apple and say "hey, here's my idea and this is what I wanted to do - would it be allowed"?

I suppose if you assume your app is going to be allowed and then it's not then you know what they say about making assumptions...

But, as I said earlier, I think those that got rejected for "limited scope" have a very legitimate argument. A flashlight is very limited scope but those run rampant...

I use the mail app as a very loose example - not everything is as clear cut as you would wonder, as there isn't always the willingness to discuss what is acceptable and what's not. I know, we've asked several times about one particular application (not something competing in this case) - we even described explicitly what we want to do, and the answer both times was pretty much along the lines of "we'll decide at the time". Wooly, in other words.

Maybe the problem is chain of command, and getting to talk to the right person. Good luck with that if you're not a big fish.

As is, we did get a final response to our app after a lot of probing (more than was worth the trouble), and abandoned plans for it. I can't tell you the response of course: NDA !

 

[Mattitude34]

Quit Your Whining!

You guys are pathetic! All I hear is a bunch of whining about how power hungry Apple is. Yet not one person has offered a reasonable alternative. Developers should read the terms of their SDK regulations BEFORE developing an app. If they break those terms it's not Apples fault that it gets rejected. This IS Apple's company! They can set the rules how they want. Any businessman with any sense would not want to sell apps that compete with their own software. Apple is protecting themselves from malicious apps, copyright infringement apps, and stupid apps that "clog up" the app store. Frankly I wish they would be a little stricter at times seeing some of the crap that makes it in!

The Android is a joke. And like a previous poster mentioned, it's top ten apps are going to be porn apps. Pathetic!

 

[fat phil]

I'm probably one of the cadalysts to this lol, anyway the fact of the matter is I'm all for it because this is to filter out all those malicious & copyright infringing applications. like that NVader game that was clearly Taito Corp's Space Invaders (copyright infringement) then there are those apps that do the same thing that the iPod touch / iPhone already does and doesn't improve upon functions and is just a cash grab. This doesn't block new innovative apps, nor the official ones from the big & small Developers. So the guy was walking on the thin line when he did that podcasting app. You can't blame Apple for reacting to it, the guy was filling what was missing in the ipod touch / iphone but in a way it's Apple's own fault I suppose. Anyway everyone has their opinion on this, I personally support protection of intellectual property.

A free for all store like Google's Android Market is a mess waiting to happen.

I'm confused:

You support copyright and IP protection, I get that - but you applaud Apple for preventing game rip-offs being approved?

Am I missing something? Last I saw, with the exception of Breakout (and only after Atari stepped in) there are plenty copycat games in the App Store...all approved by Apple...free and paid....

 

[Stella]

You guys are pathetic! All I hear is a bunch of whining about how power hungry Apple is. Yet not one person has offered a reasonable alternative. Developers should read the terms of their SDK regulations BEFORE developing an app. If they break those terms it's not Apples fault that it gets rejected. This IS Apple's company! They can set the rules how they want. Any businessman with any sense would not want to sell apps that compete with their own software. Apple is protecting themselves from malicious apps, copyright infringement apps, and stupid apps that "clog up" the app store. Frankly I wish they would be a little stricter at times seeing some of the crap that makes it in!

The Android is a joke. And like a previous poster mentioned, it's top ten apps are going to be porn apps. Pathetic!

You should read though the entire thread - you'll then realize that your points aren't very valid.

 

[fat phil]

You guys are pathetic! All I hear is a bunch of whining about how power hungry Apple is. Yet not one person has offered a reasonable alternative. Developers should read the terms of their SDK regulations BEFORE developing an app. If they break those terms it's not Apples fault that it gets rejected. This IS Apple's company! They can set the rules how they want. Any businessman with any sense would not want to sell apps that compete with their own software. Apple is protecting themselves from malicious apps, copyright infringement apps, and stupid apps that "clog up" the app store. Frankly I wish they would be a little stricter at times seeing some of the crap that makes it in!

The Android is a joke. And like a previous poster mentioned, it's top ten apps are going to be porn apps. Pathetic!

You speak of alternatives, where this entire thread is devoted to the strict stifling of alternatives: Choice.

It's sad that countless people die fighting for freedom of choice every year, yet here in the "developed world" there are all these little voices pining to be squashed and controlled.

Forgive or berate me for comparing a wartorn nation to a capitalist, monopolising money machine, but just remember they both share something in common: dictation.

Too much flouride in the water perhaps?

 

[BSAS]

Open it up...let the people decide!

Open it up Apple! Let the people decide what is crap vs. worth buying. I have always thought that if you could download an app for one day as a trial before you buy it, it would help people decide the stuff they liked. This would allow the bad/useless apps to be found and rated as such. The masses would have helpful reviews and natural competition that should raise the level of quality. Free markets are always better drivers of quality than closed markets.

Black 16GB iPhone 3G 15" MacBook Pro 4GB Blue Nano 2G

 

[HLdan]

You guys are pathetic! All I hear is a bunch of whining about how power hungry Apple is. Yet not one person has offered a reasonable alternative. Developers should read the terms of their SDK regulations BEFORE developing an app. If they break those terms it's not Apples fault that it gets rejected. This IS Apple's company! They can set the rules how they want. Any businessman with any sense would not want to sell apps that compete with their own software. Apple is protecting themselves from malicious apps, copyright infringement apps, and stupid apps that "clog up" the app store. Frankly I wish they would be a little stricter at times seeing some of the crap that makes it in!

The Android is a joke. And like a previous poster mentioned, it's top ten apps are going to be porn apps. Pathetic!

Agreed. The issue at hand about attaching NDA's is so if the developer has a problem with Apple rejecting their apps then the developer is to take it up with Apple rather than spreading the word to world about their upset. When disgruntled people are free to blog about their experience with a company they will always blow the situation out of proportion in order to make the company look bad. The whole story never gets told and because the developer is the little man against the Apple giant he will have more people supporting his rant.

Here's a scenario:
A guy buys an iPhone, within 14 days he drops it and smashes the screen, he takes it to the Apple store and demands an exchange knowing it was all his fault for what happened and he neglected to read the warranty coverage. Apple refuses to exchange it due to physical damage.

Blog posted from the guy:
I hate Apple, I bought a new iPhone from them and it wasn't working out of the box. I took it took their store and they refused to exchange it, then they blamed me for it being defective.

The story that wasn't told (as usual) in the blog was that the guy damaged his iPhone.

We don't know the whole story so it's retarded to support the developers as if they should have freedom of speech when it comes to disclosure agreements.

 

[BryanSanDiego]

Rejected by Who? What? Why?

The application rejection is up for speculation as apple has not been consistent with the rejection process. As many of you are right as to the reasons why such applications might or may have been rejected. Apple will maintain full control over this process and no matter how loud the crying is nothing will change. I am not saying you should give up the fight to push apple to reform their policies. My two cents is that some apps are being rejected based on current partners application development. The new Yahoo application duplicated iPhone built in features. As stated in earlier post that the Calculator application where duplicated functions and allowed. This is the only reasonable conclusion that I can rationalize. I also believe that there are some persons that are on the approval team that do not have enough foresight that there is a demand for even the most mundane applications. As employees will make mistakes apples best practice is to back up there employees decisions even if they are not in the companies interest. The feedback will have to exceed the revenue received from there sponsors and supporters. Rupert Murdoch, figured that out after the back lashing if the whole O.J. Simpsons book / TV ordeal you take away the support you will receive a response. If you want apple to listen you have to go after the people that sell apple outside Apple corporate locations, aka Best Buy. The very people that help them with there bottom line you don’t boycott the stores or supporters by any means. Flood supporters email systems with letters of concerns as to your reasons, get them to consider stopping the support then you will see change. Feedback is amongst the most important things for a company just look at Microsoft “airing commercials just based on trying to improve image not sell.” Image of a companies sells there products not the products themselves. If you make something part of a culture it will sell you try to force it on the culture it will be rejected with great distaste. When a company introduces a new system it typically is met with opposition. If it becomes culture it is accepted and met with optimism, accepted as the norm.

 

[bigmc6000]

I use the mail app as a very loose example - not everything is as clear cut as you would wonder, as there isn't always the willingness to discuss what is acceptable and what's not. I know, we've asked several times about one particular application (not something competing in this case) - we even described explicitly what we want to do, and the answer both times was pretty much along the lines of "we'll decide at the time". Wooly, in other words.

Maybe the problem is chain of command, and getting to talk to the right person. Good luck with that if you're not a big fish.

As is, we did get a final response to our app after a lot of probing (more than was worth the trouble), and abandoned plans for it. I can't tell you the response of course: NDA !

So are the majority of the problems with the fact that there's no way to find out before you start coding or just the fact that some are getting rejected? I think Apple should set up a support line where you formally submit your idea for your app including what it will do and how it will do it and you'll get a yes/no from that before you even bother doing to weeks/months of coding. At least from my perspective that would solve the problem. Of course that doesn't address the anti-competitive issues but it would at least allow people the opportunity to not waste their time.

Also, does anyone know of a game being rejected? I think that's probably where the biggest money is since Apple is now marketing the Touch as "the" gaming device for the holiday season.

 

[fat phil]

Agreed. The issue at hand about attaching NDA's is so if the developer has a problem with Apple rejecting their apps then the developer is to take it up with Apple rather than spreading the word to world about their upset. When disgruntled people are free to blog about their experience with a company they will always blow the situation out of proportion in order to make the company look bad. The whole story never gets told and because the developer is the little man against the Apple giant he will have more people supporting his rant.

Here's an scenario:
A guy buys an iPhone, within 14 days he drops it and smashes the screen, he takes it to the Apple store and demands an exchange knowing it was all his fault for what happened and he neglected to read the warranty coverage. Apple refuses to exchange it due to physical damage.

Blog posted from the guy:
I hate Apple, I bought a new iPhone from them and it wasn't working out of the box. I took it took their store and they refused to exchange it, then they blamed me for it being defective.

The story that wasn't told (as usual) in the blog was that the guy damaged his iPhone.

We don't know the whole story so it's retarded to support the developers as if they should have freedom of speech when it comes to disclosure agreements.

Partially correct, but you're falling victim to your own argument a bit there, because you're talking only about the story of the little man who's upset, and not the others who've been rejected who haven't spoken out (I don't particularly feel the need to offload my occassional rejection frustrations, for instance - we do that in a boardroom, then slap each other on the back for a good slagging match and go to the pub ).

Anyhoo, yes and no. The problem isn't the fine print, it's what's not in the fine print - as I said earlier, it's no good saying "we have rules" and leaving them open to interpretation.

The repeated suggestion that devs should ask Apple isn't a viable alternative, since that doesn't always yield a yes/no answer.

 

[whooleytoo]

You guys are pathetic! All I hear is a bunch of whining about how power hungry Apple is. Yet not one person has offered a reasonable alternative. Developers should read the terms of their SDK regulations BEFORE developing an app. If they break those terms it's not Apples fault that it gets rejected. This IS Apple's company! They can set the rules how they want. Any businessman with any sense would not want to sell apps that compete with their own software. Apple is protecting themselves from malicious apps, copyright infringement apps, and stupid apps that "clog up" the app store. Frankly I wish they would be a little stricter at times seeing some of the crap that makes it in!

The Android is a joke. And like a previous poster mentioned, it's top ten apps are going to be porn apps. Pathetic!

Yet again, another person who either hasn't read the thread or is ignoring the problem.

THE. TERMS. OF. THE. IPHONE. DEV. CONTRACT. ARE. NOT CLEAR.

DEVELOPERS. DO. NOT. KNOW. WHAT. IS. ALLOWED. AND. WHAT. ISN'T.

THIS. NDA. MUDDIES. THE. WATERS. EVEN. MORE.

Can I make that any clearer?

 

[BenRoethig]

Agreed. The issue at hand about attaching NDA's is so if the developer has a problem with Apple rejecting their apps then the developer is to take it up with Apple rather than spreading the word to world about their upset. When disgruntled people are free to blog about their experience with a company they will always blow the situation out of proportion in order to make the company look bad. The whole story never gets told and because the developer is the little man against the Apple giant he will have more people supporting his rant.

Here's a scenario:
A guy buys an iPhone, within 14 days he drops it and smashes the screen, he takes it to the Apple store and demands an exchange knowing it was all his fault for what happened and he neglected to read the warranty coverage. Apple refuses to exchange it due to physical damage.

Blog posted from the guy:
I hate Apple, I bought a new iPhone from them and it wasn't working out of the box. I took it took their store and they refused to exchange it, then they blamed me for it being defective.

The story that wasn't told (as usual) in the blog was that the guy damaged his iPhone.

We don't know the whole story so it's retarded to support the developers as if they should have freedom of speech when it comes to disclosure agreements.

The difference here is that the "warranty" isn't clear in the least, Apple is making things up as they go, and then trying to silence things. If they had a clearly stated policy, there would be no problem. Instead, everything is open to whatever whim Apple is having at that moment and they can reject any app at any time for any reason they feel like with no regard for the users or the developers and now they can't even talk about. That kind of behavior doesn't create innovation, it stifles it and the platform its on.

 

[fat phil]

So are the majority of the problems with the fact that there's no way to find out before you start coding or just the fact that some are getting rejected? I think Apple should set up a support line where you formally submit your idea for your app including what it will do and how it will do it and you'll get a yes/no from that before you even bother doing to weeks/months of coding. At least from my perspective that would solve the problem. Of course that doesn't address the anti-competitive issues but it would at least allow people the opportunity to not waste their time.

Also, does anyone know of a game being rejected? I think that's probably where the biggest money is since Apple is now marketing the Touch as "the" gaming device for the holiday season.

The real problem is indeed "foreknowledge". While it's true that a little common sense can protect you from wasting time on something that's obviously going to be rejected, that doesn't always apply, and it's not good enough where companies expect to pour hundreds of man hours into making (and read me right here: quality) products.

I might even say it's unprofessional, but nobody that matters is going to take any notice or give a response that will change my mind.

Plenty devs have proposed an approval process, and plenty threads have disappeared too. Some ears don't want to hear about it - perhaps it's a See No Evil Hear No Evil policy. *shrug*

It won't put me off developing for iPhone, nor anyone else, no matter how much they kick and yell about their bruised indignity - but it has instilled a sense of "let's not do anything too big on iPhone" mentality in the office. Which is a shame cause I'd love to do something massive.

Wouldn't want someone to say "ooo an MMO - that's cool, but AT&T are complaining about the network usage, so let's pull it". Ok, extreme, but hey - that's half the problem, we just don't know what to expect next.

I can't think of any games that have been rejected, but then there are some very practical reasons for rejection - I'm sure someone will test the boundaries of what Apple 'consider' decency sooner or later, for example. At that point, you have to judge what's decent and what's not ... the old, familiar "violent video games" melodrama.

 

[whooleytoo]

Here's a scenario:
A guy buys an iPhone, within 14 days he drops it and smashes the screen, he takes it to the Apple store and demands an exchange knowing it was all his fault for what happened and he neglected to read the warranty coverage. Apple refuses to exchange it due to physical damage.

Blog posted from the guy:
I hate Apple, I bought a new iPhone from them and it wasn't working out of the box. I took it took their store and they refused to exchange it, then they blamed me for it being defective.

The story that wasn't told (as usual) in the blog was that the guy damaged his iPhone.

We don't know the whole story so it's retarded to support the developers as if they should have freedom of speech when it comes to disclosure agreements.

And continuing that analogy, do you think Apple should gag EVERYONE who complains about the quality of an Apple product in case they are presenting false information (such as your guy with the iPhone)?

It's only by this information getting out into the public domain that things get fixed/improved.

 

[fat phil]

Yet again, another person who either hasn't read the thread or is ignoring the problem.

THE. TERMS. OF. THE. IPHONE. DEV. CONTRACT. ARE. NOT CLEAR.

DEVELOPERS. DO. NOT. KNOW. WHAT. IS. ALLOWED. AND. WHAT. ISN'T.

THIS. NDA. MUDDIES. THE. WATERS. EVEN. MORE.

Can I make that any clearer?

Perfect

 

[digitalbiker]

The difference here is that the "warranty" isn't clear in the least, Apple is making things up as they go, and then trying to silence things. If they had a clearly stated policy, there would be no problem. Instead, everything is open to whatever whim Apple is having at that moment and they can reject any app at any time for any reason they feel like with no regard for the users or the developers and now they can't even talk about. That kind of behavior doesn't create innovation, it stifles it and the platform its on.

In addition, not being able to talk about what is rejected, complicates the problem more.

Now multiple developers may attempt to develop the same type of app over and over because they aren't aware that it had been previously rejected.

By restricting communication between developers Apple is creating a monster. Now developers have no idea how the guidelines will be interpreted. They have no idea what bugs exist because they can't share the info with each other. They also are not allowed to share code. What a mess!

Apple will be lucky if any developers stick with the iphone. The ability to run 3rd party apps was the best reason to upgrade to the 2.0 version of the software. Now Apple is now systematically destroying a good thing. BAD APPLE!!

 

[whooleytoo]

Perfect

Whew! I was worried I'd have to use HTML. You wouldn't like me if I used HTML..

 

[HLdan]

And continuing that analogy, do you think Apple should gag EVERYONE who complains about the quality of an Apple product in case they are presenting false information (such as your guy with the iPhone)?

It's only by this information getting out into the public domain that things get fixed/improved.

You are absolutely right, public displays of issues with product should be shared so the company will hopefully hear it and fix issues. In this case and my scenario if the developer has a problem with Apple rejecting their app that they spent time creating then the they need to address this with Apple as their is an agreement that the developer has with Apple.

With the broken iPhone example, the warranty is the agreement from Apple. If there's a legitimate problem with the iPhone then the customer has to take it up with Apple, right? Writing a blog and posting on MR won't get the phone fixed.

I agree, Apple should make certain that the dumbest person understands the terms and conditions of the developer agreement however if only the developers would READ it.
I can almost bet 95% of the world doesn't read the terms and conditions or the EULA's on anything they install on their computer.
It makes perfect sense for Apple to place a gag order on the developers.

If your boss has a problem with your job performance would you prefer for your boss to address it to you privately or reprimand you in front of your peers and making you look like a bad person?
Just because a company is big doesn't mean that they don't deserve privacy.

 

[whooleytoo]

I agree, Apple should make certain that the dumbest person understands the terms and conditions of the developer agreement however if only the developers would READ it.
I can almost bet 95% of the world doesn't read the terms and conditions or the EULA's on anything they install on their computer.
It makes perfect sense for Apple to place a gag order on the developers.

The problem is, the NDA won't tell you explicitly what can and cannot be submitted. The only way to know if your app idea is valid is to submit it to iTunes, and cross your fingers. To exacerbate the problem, if apps are rejected, the reasons are now being kept secret; which just means developer after developer are going to fall into this same trap.

It's a bit like Apple is a leprechaun charging entry into a dark cave. Maybe you'll find treasure, or maybe you'll be lost in the cave of doom and never be heard from again. Only way to find out is to pay up the money and go in. It's not a sound way of running an app development business, and it's not a sound way of Apple strengthening its platform.

You also need to remember, no developer expected the iPhone NDA to be permanent when they signed up. There is no similar NDA covering Mac development work, so why just the iPhone?

 

[Ravenholme]

I'm confused:

You support copyright and IP protection, I get that - but you applaud Apple for preventing game rip-offs being approved?

Am I missing something? Last I saw, with the exception of Breakout (and only after Atari stepped in) there are plenty copycat games in the App Store...all approved by Apple...free and paid....

No I get that Apple initially screwed up in terms of filtering crap apps & games that rip-off copyright, I applauded this first step; the initial push if u will. I'm all for the quality checks, and I hope Apple is gearing towards that with the rejection letters (done properly of course). It's clear that there are like 100 Sudoku apps in the apps store, and that does get a bit overwhelming trying to flip through them all. Maybe they just need to organize the main categories w/ sub categories; like in music & videos? I dunno maybe I missed something =p

 

[madfresh]

What would happen if a rejected developer broke the NDA? My guess is absolutely nothing.

 

[fat phil]

What would happen if a rejected developer broke the NDA? My guess is absolutely nothing.

At the very least a harsh warning. Persist and expect to have Dev status revoked. I doubt it would get legal.