Apple Facing Antitrust Probe Over 'Sign in With Apple' and Other Developer Complaints

[MysticCow]

Apple requires all App Store apps that offer Google, Facebook, and Twitter sign-in options to also provide a Sign in with Apple alternative (with exceptions for apps that exclusively use third-party accounts like Gmail and Tweetbot), which some developers are unhappy with.

Translation:

"My app 'requires' phoning home to Facebook so I can target you with ads."

 

[thislsmadness]

Again, for the nth time, this isn't about asking Google or Apple to delete accounts. It's about a choice to switch manufacturer of a device.

If I go android -> iPhone, I can use sign in with google on iOS since Google supports that. If I go iPhone -> android, I can't continue to use sign in with Apple. THAT is the vendor lock-in, it has nothing to do with deleting accounts - it's quite simple and I fail to see how you cannot grasp that concept.

IF that is the problem then the discussion should be focused on demanding Apple offer a better experience for device switching rather than giving developers the choice of whether or not to include it -- that solution does not address the problem at all.

 

[Wildkraut]

Probably less than google and Facebook though.

Maybe, they are the next ones on the list.

I’m not emotionally attached to any company. They are all just companies with mainly profit in mind, they just have different tactics, even Epic, just that Epics point of view will serve the devs and customers more than Apples current point of view. If Epic start acting like a Vampire in the future, sure they would deserve a slap, too.

All these tech companies somehow deserve a “smash head to lavatory - the punisher scene” thats why I’m for a general market regulation.

 

[Ethosik]

Isn't it possible to have an AppleID if you're on Windows?

Yes. I log in to Skillshare with Apple using Microsoft Edge on Windows 10 on a custom built gaming PC with no problems.

 

[Ethosik]

Again, for the nth time, this isn't about asking Google or Apple to delete accounts. It's about a choice to switch manufacturer of a device.

If I go android -> iPhone, I can use sign in with google on iOS since Google supports that. If I go iPhone -> android, I can't continue to use sign in with Apple. THAT is the vendor lock-in, it has nothing to do with deleting accounts - it's quite simple and I fail to see how you cannot grasp that concept.

Is it just an issue with Android apps? For the nth time, as I have said before. I am 100% able to log in to Skillshare using Microsoft Edge on Windows 10 on a custom built Windows PC. NO Apple hardware AT ALL in that chain.

 

[I7guy]

Maybe, they are the next ones on the list.

I’m not emotionally attached to any company. They are all just companies with mainly profit in mind, they just have different tactics, even Epic, just that Epics point of view will serve the devs and customers more than Apples current point of view. If Epic start acting like a Vampire in the future, sure they would deserve a slap, too.

All these tech companies somehow deserve a “smash head to lavatory - the punisher scene” thats why I’m for a general market regulation.

Oh, I agree in some aspects. I'm am for some general regulations as it relates to your data. I am not for regulating a business model that a company has built up. Let facebook, google and apple run their business the way they see fit and let the free market determine if the business model is good. Just don't crap all over my personal information.

This might be different than your idea of general market regulation, where you want the fees, app store and Apples' business model regulated. I'm am NOT for that. Let the market decide those.

edit: this is out of my hands and the chips are going to fall where they may anyway. But when the government steps in unnecessarily, consumers lose. Just look at the state of the US cell phone service that stemmed from the break-up of ATT. It's pitiful compared to the a lot of the world.

 

[Stevesak]

Lot of comments here and I’ve read half of them but I’d like to chime in as well.
1st — I love Apple mobile products, I hate their culture, love their drive to respect our privacy, hate their manipulative sales tactics... i like to think I’m at least somewhat impartial.

In this case Apple is making a good strategic call which is also pro-consumer.

I imagine the idea behind this is to force devs to enable users to standardize on their 3rd part login choices. As a user I don’t need now to maintain a Google/Facebook/Twitter (read data stealing) account to just to log into someone’s app. I now have more safe apps that I can use without compromising my privacy and my user experience is greatly enhanced because they all just work and use one account... not four — that can potentially be exposed do to data breach, phishing, etc.

Devs don’t give up much as it sounds like an easy code change. if you want a presence in the App store and access to a billion devices, make your app convenient for those billion devices to use. Seems like something they should want to do anyway.

If users want to use Apple’s SSO they they should always have that option when they download SSO enabled apps from the App Store. Consumers win. Apples environment is more streamlined and they win as well.

Are the developers who are complaining doing such because of financial loss because the big data stealing companies like Facebook and google are paying them off to grab this extra data? If not, I don’t get why they are up in arms about enhancing their users experience....

 

[LDN]

I use this feature for unimportant apps that I don't intend to use for very long or that I don't care about that much. So if I switch to an Android device, I won't really care anyway, and I have no intention of switching. For anything important, I use my persona email address.

 

[theotherphil]

I agree that it hurts the developers as they used to get money from Google and Facebook for having those login prompts , but the question you should ask is "what is best for the CONSUMER" , or at least that's what should be the priority on Apple side , and when they put the Consumer wellbeing above the developer it creates an issue for the developer , as the end goal is not the same for both entities.

By forcing the developer to put SIWA they hurt the developer but they help the consumer.
Imaging a consumer suing an App developer not putting SIWA as an option , saying its anti competitive to only force him to login with Facebook for example , would you say he is right ? or that the developer can decide what he wants to do and the consumer can agree or go look for a different App ?

I find it crazy to let SW developers be prioritized above the consumers in those situations , but I understand the need of the App developers to make more money , as stated before , App developers and Consumers are not on the same side.

This is exactly what antitrust laws look at - harms to the consumer. When Apple gets the highest customer satisfaction scores, year after year in independent polls AND customers willingly PAY MORE for their devices, you know that they are doing something right.

Apple users could get an Android device included for free on a contract (the latest Galaxy S21 was advertised last night free on a $65 AUD mobile contract and came with unlimited calls, texts and 80Gb data)….yet they CHOOSE to pay full price for an iPhone. This is the reason Apple users don’t switch….they are on the whole, very happy with their device and experience. If Android could offer the same performance and experience on a free handset, I’d be all over it like a rash.

The developers don’t have this consumer relationship. The developer relationship is purely a business one and is covered by a number of contracts that they enter into. They don’t have to like the terms of the contracts but they do have to agree to them in order to develop on the Apple Platform. Of course they are going to be unhappy….that’s business and occurs in every sector where each entity wants to make as much cash as possible.

The problem is, the current generation has never been told no. They are used to getting everything their own way and want everything instantly. They’re told that they can be anything that they want to be and everybody gets an award.

Then, it’s a surprise when real life hits them and find that they’ve been lied to all this time. Now it’s time to jump up and down and whine how life isn’t fair and expect everybody to bend over backwards to accommodate them.

 

[Ethosik]

This is exactly what antitrust laws look at - harms to the consumer. When Apple gets the highest customer satisfaction scores, year after year in independent polls AND customers willingly PAY MORE for their devices, you know that they are doing something right. Apple users could get an Android device included for free on a contract (the latest Galaxy S21 was advertised last night free on a $65 AUD mobile contract and came with unlimited calls, texts and 80Gb data)….yet they CHOOSE to pay full price for an iPhone. This is the reason Apple users don’t switch….they are on the whole, very happy with their device and experience. If Android could offer the same performance and experience on a free handset, I’d be all over it like a rash.

The developers don’t have this consumer relationship. The developer relationship is purely a business one and is covered by a number of contracts that they enter into. They don’t have to like the terms of the contracts but they do have to agree to them in order to develop on the Apple Platform. Of course they are going to be unhappy….that’s business and occurs in every sector where each entity wants to make as much cash as possible.

The problem is, the current generation has never been told no. They are used to getting everything their own way and want everything instantly. They’re told that they can be anything that they want to be and everybody gets an award.

Then, it’s a surprise when real life hits them and find that they’ve been lied to all this time. Now it’s time to jump up and down and whine how life isn’t fair and expect everybody to bend over backwards to accommodate them.

It is nice seeing someone else post this. I basically said the same thing and got a lot of thumbs downs so prepare for those!

 

[theotherphil]

It is nice seeing someone else post this. I basically said the same thing and got a lot of thumbs downs so prepare for those!

Trolls gonna troll.

 

[Baritone_Guy]

You clearly have no clue what kind of information and relationships, server side web service access logs can reveal.

I do IT security for a living. Please explain where I am wrong. Server logs for things like this would just show an IP address or maybe the alias.

I do agree that most people are clueless as to the level of detail even “meta data” can reveal about them. I do not see this as being any worse. The site doesn’t know who I am, but can see information on how I access them. They can’t put that to an email address though.

 

[nouvejetzt]

That Apple Trillion dollars company really made people jealous.

 

[gavroche]

Whatever app/service you use with Sign in with Apple credentials are locked to those credentials.
Your information is obfuscated on the other end. While that enhances privacy, it makes leaving Apple's ecosystem a bit harder as those services are tied to the ID Apple gave to the app/service via Sign in with Apple auth process.
You can always just create another account when you leave, but if it's an app/service that retains history, achievements, etc., those will be lost.
That said, Sign in with Apple works on Android devices IF the developer decides to add it to their Android version of their app. While it may be easy to add to an iOS app, it's a royal pain in the rear to setup for Android devices, but once done, maintaining it is easy enough.
The issue I have is making it mandatory for devs who use other third party auth agents.
Google does not require this for Android devs. If they just want to use Facebook auth, they're good to go. They're not forced to add sign in with Google.

Admittedly i have only used sign in with apple a couple times... but i was under the impression that all i had to do was go into the settings for an account and i could change my account email at any time. I can do that any time i want with normal email account sign ins. I get that my email is obfuscated an the other end so the site/developer cant see your real address... but once you are logged in... what stops you from changing the account login email or method?

 

[jdawgnoonan]

And Apple doesn't hinder switching to another phone, e.g. Android. There are ways to move your personal data across operating systems. You might not get the exact apps, but it's the same with moving from Windows to Linux.

I know it isn't difficult, I switch back and forth every few generations. However, Apple 2 Factor Authentication is highly irritating if you do not have an iOS device.

 

[Rob_2811]

Quite right too. Break them up!

 

[willyx]

No it isn’t.

They’re not forcing anything on anyone. They’re offering a different Apple centric choice for the users of Apple products. These users can still chose to sign in by any other means the dev offers.

If you’re referring to it being ‘forced’ on devs, then that’s a null point really. Any changes to Apple frameworks (or any other frameworks) are technically forced upon devs.
If you already offer sign in with Google and Facebook then it’s really a moot point to offer Sign In with Apple. Or else you can just offer email sign in and avoid it all.

Sign In with Apple is a welcome addition to many apps. Some apps ONLY offer sign in with Google or Facebook. No email options. In this case, for me, the app will immediately get deleted.

How anyone can possibly argue against this, from an Apple consumers point of view (which is what this is, right?) is beyond me.

You're actually conceding to what I said. Apple is obligating devs (i.e., forcing them) to include a login method that may be more convenient for the user but the developer may not want to use.

This is like Apple forcing Amazon to include a link to the Apple Store whenever Amazon wants to sell you a computer or a smartphone through an iOS device. Clearly an anticompetitive practice.

Moreover, it creates a barrier to leave the iOS platform, as you would have to create new accounts on each service again if you wanted to go Android. Again, anticompetitive.

 

[I7guy]

You're actually conceding to what I said. Apple is obligating devs (i.e., forcing them) to include a login method that may be more convenient for the user but the developer may not want to use.

There are already a bunch of rules a dev must follow. To me the only reason a dev wouldn't want to use SIWA is because there is no monetization.

This is like Apple forcing Amazon to include a link to the Apple Store whenever Amazon wants to sell you a computer or a smartphone through an iOS device. Clearly an anticompetitive practice.

No it's not and if anything levels the playing field.

Moreover, it creates a barrier to leave the iOS platform, as you would have to create new accounts on each service again if you wanted to go Android. Again, anticompetitive.

No it doesn't create a barrier to leaving ios any more than deleting your google or facebook account creates a barrier to leaving google or facebook and not being able to use SIWG or SIWFB. Your apple id is still valid, all one needs to do is to set an authentication method to a phone number.

 

[jdawgnoonan]

There are already a bunch of rules a dev must follow. To me the only reason a dev wouldn't want to use SIWA is because there is no monetization.

No it's not and if anything levels the playing field.

No it doesn't create a barrier to leaving ios any more than deleting your google or facebook account creates a barrier to leaving google or facebook and not being able to use SIWG or SIWFB. Your apple id is still valid, all one needs to do is to set an authentication method to a phone number.

Apple's two factor authentication is a royal pain if you do not have an iOS device. First you get their prompt that assumes that you have an iOS device and then you have to request an SMS. Not only is this less secure for those of us not using iOS, it also is something that makes me resent every login with Apple as they seem unwilling to trust my trusted devices for more than a week or two. Every time I log into iCloud or Apple Music (web) and get the prompt I curse under my breath.

 

[I7guy]

Apple's two factor authentication is a royal pain if you do not have an iOS device. First you get their prompt that assumes that you have an iOS device and then you have to request an SMS. Not only is this less secure for those of us not using iOS, it also is something that makes me resent every login with Apple as they seem unwilling to trust my trusted devices for more than a week or two. Every time I log into iCloud or Apple Music (web) and get the prompt I curse under my breath.

I don’t have an issue with trusted devices going awol after a week. Additionally I use a phone number as a backup should I ever lose my primary IOS device, which is always a distinct consideration. I tried it and it works as advertised.

 

[jdawgnoonan]

I don’t have an issue with trusted devices going awol after a week. Additionally I use a phone number as a backup should I ever lose my primary IOS device, which is always a distinct consideration. I tried it and it works as advertised.

But, if you leave the Apple ecosystem, I am now using Android, the process gets convoluted. I get the Apple prompt for two factor, but I do not get the code like you do on an iPhone. So on their prompt I have to take the additional step to have them send a text message so that I can get the code texted to me. On an iPhone, they send you the code directly. I am sorry, but it is annoying and unnecessary that they force it to work this way for people who left iOS behind. I would not be complaining if they gave me the option to get a text by default, or better yet allow use of an authentictor app like almost every other secure platform allows. Someday I will use an iPhone again because I switch regularly, but when I am on iOS I will never choose the option to use Apple authentication because it is a pain in the butt if you leave. And I have removed Authentication with Apple for everything I can other than for Apple services. They also do other things to make leaving difficult that have to be intentional, but they are not relevant to this conversation. However, as I stated before, Microsoft does not do anything similar for people who switch platforms a lot. Actually, I have not experienced any other company that goes out of its way to make it as annoying.

 

[I7guy]

But, if you leave the Apple ecosystem, I am now using Android, the process gets convoluted. I get the Apple prompt for two factor, but I do not get the code like you do on an iPhone. So on their prompt I have to take the additional step to have them send a text message so that I can get the code texted to me. On an iPhone, they send you the code directly. I am sorry, but it is annoying and unnecessary that they force it to work this way for people who left iOS behind. I would not be complaining if they gave me the option to get a text by default, or better yet allow use of an authentictor app like almost every other secure platform allows. Someday I will use an iPhone again because I switch regularly, but when I am on iOS I will never choose the option to use Apple authentication because it is a pain in the butt if you leave. And I have removed Authentication with Apple for everything I can other than for Apple services. They also do other things to make leaving difficult that have to be intentional, but they are not relevant to this conversation. However, as I stated before, Microsoft does not do anything similar for people who switch platforms a lot. Actually, I have not experienced any other company that goes out of its way to make it as annoying.

The above is why I don’t use sign-in with anybody. If I leave the google ecosystem or facebook ecosystem by having my user account deleted, I’m in the soup that you describe above.

Except I don’t believe Apple intentionally hampers leaving their ecosystem. It’s the choices one makes along the way.

 

[theotherphil]

But, if you leave the Apple ecosystem, I am now using Android, the process gets convoluted. I get the Apple prompt for two factor, but I do not get the code like you do on an iPhone. So on their prompt I have to take the additional step to have them send a text message so that I can get the code texted to me. On an iPhone, they send you the code directly. I am sorry, but it is annoying and unnecessary that they force it to work this way for people who left iOS behind. I would not be complaining if they gave me the option to get a text by default, or better yet allow use of an authentictor app like almost every other secure platform allows. Someday I will use an iPhone again because I switch regularly, but when I am on iOS I will never choose the option to use Apple authentication because it is a pain in the butt if you leave. And I have removed Authentication with Apple for everything I can other than for Apple services. They also do other things to make leaving difficult that have to be intentional, but they are not relevant to this conversation. However, as I stated before, Microsoft does not do anything similar for people who switch platforms a lot. Actually, I have not experienced any other company that goes out of its way to make it as annoying.

Apple will never move to an authentication app. Their aspirations are WebAuthN and passwordless logins. Safari/ iOS and MacOS supports this already.

You’ve got to understand that Apple decisions, and particularly those around security, are there to benefit their actual users…not people wishing to leave. No business is obligated to make things easy for you to move away from them.

How about you speak to your new device manufacturer? Ask them to make a tool for migrating your data….just like Apple do to allow migration of your Android data to iOS.

Move from Android to iPhone or iPad – Apple Support (AU)

Ready to transfer to iOS? Download the Move to iOS app to get help switching from your Android device to your new iPhone or iPad.

support.apple.com

 

[jdawgnoonan]

Apple will never move to an authentication app. Their aspirations are WebAuthN and passwordless logins. Safari/ iOS and MacOS supports this already.

You’ve got to understand that Apple decisions, and particularly those around security, are there to benefit their actual users…not people wishing to leave. No business is obligated to make things easy for you to move away from them.

How about you speak to your new device manufacturer? Ask them to make a tool for migrating your data….just like Apple do to allow migration of your Android data to iOS.

Move from Android to iPhone or iPad – Apple Support (AU)

Ready to transfer to iOS? Download the Move to iOS app to get help switching from your Android device to your new iPhone or iPad.

support.apple.com

My current device maker does have a tool to migrate data from iOS. Also, Apple's two factor is not more secure, and it is especially less secure when they force you to get codes over SMS. Even though I do not have an iPhone, I am an Apple user. Apple should not merely provide better support to users who are 100% all in on Apple devices. I for one view their approach as a reason to not be 100% in their ecosystem.

 

[incoherent_1]

It is an anti-trust case because they are forcing their own option while making the switch to other devices harder, as the article states.

Which makes no sense. Using that logic, every technology company in the world is guilty of anti-trust violations.