Apple Facing Class Action Lawsuit for Offering Refurbished Replacement Devices Under AppleCare+

[JayLenochiniMac]

Why at no point did Apple identify the replacement as refurbished if it's no big deal? After reading the complaint, that fact there is a large part of the plantif's issue.

AC+ terms and conditions do say the replacement may be either new or equivalent to new in performance and reliability (the latter meaning remanufactured). What did the plaintiffs think they were getting that was "equivalent to new in performance and reliability" if it wasn't new? Newer than new?

The bigger picture that many here are missing is that Apple is not obligated to provide white box replacement on the spot in lieu of repairing the broken iPhone, but they do it out of convenience to the customer because 1) they would not have to be without their iPhone for a week while it's bring repaired and 2) they get the additional benefit of receiving a fresher iPhone with a brand new screen, shell and battery. With all other products from nearly every manufacturers, you'd be forced to ship the broken product to the manufacturer for repair.

Apple can very easily cease to provide white box replacements and start sending the customer's broken device to the depot for the actual repair and they'd be allowed to do this per AC+ terms and conditions:

(i) repair the defect using new or refurbished parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability, or...

And as mentioned, they're not obligated to replace the defective part with a new part either.

Bet you if given the choice between being without the iPhone for a week while their used iPhone is sent to the depot for repair or receiving a refurbished white box replacement, the vast majority of customers will choose the latter. People are just being greedy.

 

[akash.nu]

Having read this thread over 2 days I'm just amazed how many people don't have any clue how the warranty and insurance terms work and how the corporations deal with repair and replacement. I'm just gobsmacked with some of the comments. Which world do these guys live in?!

 

[sbailey4]

my

I treat my devices better than some people treat their children. They go into a case and a screen protector is attached the moment I open the box. A refurbished frankenphone has nothing on the original it is replacing, period, especially when Apple doesn't outright state that is what you are getting. Why the double speak then if it's a good deal? Why at no point did Apple identify the replacement as refurbished if it's no big deal? After reading the complaint, that fact there is a large part of the plantif's issue.

I do too . Hated to trade in my pristine 4s when VZW offered the $200 trade in for a 6 but since I got it for $150 and used it 3 yrs........ Also I would not accept a scratched up refurb either. But according to the apple store online, all refurb items have new battery and cases and same warranty so not an issue as far as I am concerned. Keep in mind that not all users take the same care and potentially what they would get as a replacement would be better than what they are turning in. (and actually be working).

 

[mi7chy]

Only idiots think reburb is better than new. Phone along with tooth brush, under wear, etc. are other items that I won't touch if previously used.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Phone along with tooth brush, under wear, etc. are other items that I won't touch if previously used.

That bad? People buy used iPhones all the time, especially considering that they're easily disinfected as a flat slab. However, in the context of the OP, remanufactured iPhones get a brand new screen, shell and battery so there's basically a barrier between used innards and what comes in contact with your hand if you're that paranoid.

Do you also refuse to sleep in hotels because of the used beds, despite the washed sheets?

 

[sbailey4]

Only idiots think reburb is better than new. Phone along with tooth brush, under wear, etc. are other items that I won't touch if previously used.

No one has said that at all. You need to go back and read again. And don't buy AppleCare, save your $$ to put towards purchase of your replacement NEW phone when it breaks.

 

[Potus]

I'm on your side in this issue but I cannot agree with that.
Every refurb iphone unit I have ever had (iPhone 6 and iPhone 5 at least) ALWAYS had something wrong with them..more often than not dead pixels.

on the contrary none of my retail bought iphones ever had any real defects...

[doublepost=1469235894][/doublepost]

I'm on your side in this issue but I cannot agree with that.
Every refurb iphone unit I have ever had (iPhone 6 and iPhone 5 at least) ALWAYS had something wrong with them..more often than not dead pixels.

on the contrary none of my retail bought iphones ever had any real defects...

I have bought many refurbished Apple products and have never been disappointed or observed any defects. Similarly, I've purchased a couple of refurbished household appliances from KitchenAid: again no problems. Of course, it's always true that one buys a ticket and takes a chance but that true of every purchase.

 

[Abazigal]

Having read this thread over 2 days I'm just amazed how many people don't have any clue how the warranty and insurance terms work and how the corporations deal with repair and replacement. I'm just gobsmacked with some of the comments. Which world do these guys live in?!

Apparently one where they feel they are entitled to everything they want, regardless of whether they actually deserve it or not.

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[flyinmac]

I know that in the case of the iMac G5 systems with the bad capacitors, that we were all just passing our used main boards around with the bad capacitors still in place.

It was the running joke at the time. We were just giving our bad boards to Apple in exchange for someone else's bad board.

All replacement main boards were defective. And Apple refused to admit what we had already determined. Every iMac G5 from that series had bad capacitors.

But Apple just kept playing the shell game. Passing the unrepaired main boards around with their manufacturing defect left unrepaired.

This went on for numerous months until a class action lawsuit forced them to admit to a manufacturing defect and forced a recall. Unfortunately, by then my iMac G5 was long given up on, and resting peacefully in a landfill. I had been through the cycle so many times, it was clear that Apple was never going to voluntarily admit that there was a design or manufacturing defect. That was $3000 well spent. And lesson learned. Apple will pass defective parts around indefinitely.

 

[akash.nu]

I know that in the case of the iMac G5 systems with the bad capacitors, that we were all just passing our used main boards around with the bad capacitors still in place.

It was the running joke at the time. We were just giving our bad boards to Apple in exchange for someone else's bad board.

All replacement main boards were defective. And Apple refused to admit what we had already determined. Every iMac G5 from that series had bad capacitors.

But Apple just kept playing the shell game. Passing the unrepaired main boards around with their manufacturing defect left unrepaired.

This went on for numerous months until a class action lawsuit forced them to admit to a manufacturing defect and forced a recall. Unfortunately, by then my iMac G5 was long given up on, and resting peacefully in a landfill. I had been through the cycle so many times, it was clear that Apple was never going to voluntarily admit that there was a design or manufacturing defect. That was $3000 well spent. And lesson learned. Apple will pass defective parts around indefinitely.

If a whole batch is faulty that's a different story then. They've done many such recalls on multiple occasions.

 

[notabadname]

That's why it says "equivalent to new" instead on simply "new". They would have to show the refurbished hardware did not perform equivalently to a "new" device. But that word "equivalent" certainly allows Apple to replace with hardware that is not unused/virgin/brand-new. Frivolous, and hopefully the courts agree.

 

[kdarling]

Well, I for one agree with you. It'd be nothing for them to have a battery of diagnostic tests automated after their robots strip the phone apart. All tests pass, it's good to go, only minor tweaks to the board required they'd do it (labour's pretty cheap in much of the world), anything else and it goes to full recycling.

First off, there's only one Apple dismantling robot in existence so far, it only does one model (6S), and all it does is remove different material parts into specific bins to be melted down for material and precious metal reclamation. By itself, that robot is virtually meaningless in the face of hundreds of millions of scrapped iPhones.

So nope, robots are not doing the ripping apart. Right now 99% of that is done by reclamation factories using manual labor.

--

When an iPhone is turned in, it can end up one of several places. According to Apple, the majority have had water damage (mostly drops into toilets), and thus are immediately destined for a recycler.

Interestingly, Apple's contracted recyclers are reportedly all under a "total destruction" contract, meaning no part can be left whole and resalable, not even a memory or audio chip. This is so clones cannot contain used Apple parts. It is strictly audited. If 100 pounds of iPhones come into an Apple contracted recycler, Apple expects 100 pounds of crushed dust to come out the other end!

--

iPhones that don't have water damage can end up at a refurb facility, where they're tested a bit more. If a phone is working, then it gets a new case and battery and goes into Apple's store replacement group.

If not working, easily removed modules can be pulled to replace bad ones in other refurbs.

I can find no evidence, nor does it make any economic sense, that Apple tries to debug iPhone boards and replace individual chips. iPhone modules are not like larger all-in-one laptop or desktop computer motherboards where such work can be feasible.

I also don't know where the oft-repeated idea that Apple' replacement iPhones get a new display came from. Even Apple's officially sold refurb iPods and iPads only get a case and battery. Moreover, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of store refurbs having display problems.

 

[Retired Cat]

Only idiots think reburb is better than new. Phone along with tooth brush, under wear, etc. are other items that I won't touch if previously used.

This makes no sense.

Apple remanufactured iPhones use new exterior components. The white box iPhone 5 replacement I received earlier this year was flawless.

Who cares if the main board was reused? It's not like people can wipe their nose on the components inside. And liquid-damaged iPhones are immediately sent to the recycler to be crushed and melted down.

 

[Retired Cat]

I also don't know where the oft-repeated idea that Apple' replacement iPhones get a new display came from. Even Apple's officially sold refurb iPods and iPads only get a case and battery. Moreover, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of store refurbs having display problems.

I'm fairly sure mine got a new display for 2 reasons:

The pink rectangle in the center is faintly visible, but would take about 1 year of aging before becoming fully visible.

I'm checked for micro scratches when I got home and took off the plastic packaging sheet over the screen. Under sunlight and flashlight, the display had no wear at all. Unless Apple is re-polishing the screens and re-applying the anti-oil coating I don't think the screen was ever used.

 

[HiRez]

I've purchased refurb Macs before and have had an excellent experience with them. I've also had to replace various iOS devices under AC+ in the past with no problem.

I bought my original dual-core "cheese grater" Mac Pro as a refurb and it was an excellent machine that provided me many years of trouble-free operation.

However, I think I would trust refurbished mobile devices (phones, tablets, and laptops) less than something that generally sits on a desk and doesn't move (desktops, servers). Anything people can carry around with them is likely going to be exposed to a lot more bad things (being tossed around, banged, dropped off desks, left sitting in the hot sun or in freezing temperatures, extreme humidity, drooled on by children, etc.). Some of these parts are going to be partially-worn and while they will work, they will not be "like new" at the end of the refurb process.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

I also don't know where the oft-repeated idea that Apple' replacement iPhones get a new display came from. Even Apple's officially sold refurb iPods and iPads only get a case and battery. Moreover, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of store refurbs having display problems.

Notice it says "shell" and yes, that includes front glass. I've had replacement iPhones and you can easily tell (by feel) that it has a fresh oleophobic coating. That some remanufactured iPhones have display problems is meaningless because they're no less susceptible to random manufacturing defects compared to brand new units especially with brand new screens, cases and batteries.

 

[fischersd]

Blah Blah Blah....I'm a mobile engineer and you don't know ****.

Maybe, just maybe, I have a decade at another mobile manufacturer and have more than a clue from the next guy, so take your pompous pretext and...

Just because you're at point N in the Apple business doesn't mean you know the intricacies of their RMA business. Maybe you did 10 years ago....but how do you qualify what you throw out there now, with no proof to back your claims?

Unless you're willing to put it all out there, don't claim that you "know" to be fact. Without background, what you state is without merit.

 

[kdarling]

Maybe, just maybe, I have a decade at another mobile manufacturer and have more than a clue from the next guy, so take your pompous pretext and...

Eh? I replied with some current facts about Apple's recycling.

Just because you're at point N in the Apple business doesn't mean you know the intricacies of their RMA business. Maybe you did 10 years ago....but how do you qualify what you throw out there now, with no proof to back your claims?

It's a public fact that there's only one experimental Apple recycling robot so far, that it only does one model, and we know that it only breaks phones apart so that all the parts are sorted to be destroyed and materials reclaimed. This is partly because of the difficulty of automatically taking apart a partially glued together device.

It's also a public fact that Apple has a "full destruction" policy on iPhones sent for material recycling.

Those are known facts that I stated. Now, you had said:

It'd be nothing for them to have a battery of diagnostic tests automated after their robots strip the phone apart.

Do you have any proof that that Apple has any robots that can remove parts from an iPhone in such a clean way that they can be tested and reused? Because Apple has never stated any such thing, and such a capability would be quite news worthy.

It sounds like you work(ed) for RIM/Blackberry. Do they have such a capability?

There's no need to be hostile if you actually have some facts on your side.

 

[fischersd]

Eh? I replied with some current facts about Apple's recycling.

It sounds like you work(ed) for RIM/Blackberry. Do they have such a capability?

There's no need to be hostile if you actually have some facts on your side.

I did. What I'm asking for is the references for what you state to be fact.

 

[Abazigal]

Only idiots think reburb is better than new. Phone along with tooth brush, under wear, etc. are other items that I won't touch if previously used.

I think the point is more that your product being sent in for repair likely wasn't brand new to begin with, so what expectation do people have to a brand new device?

 

[kdarling]

I did. What I'm asking for is the references for what you state to be fact.

Links in my response above. ( One problem with this new forum software is that links are not as obvious as they were when they had underlines. )
[doublepost=1469326742][/doublepost]

I think the point is more that your product being sent in for repair likely wasn't brand new to begin with, so what expectation do people have to a brand new device?

Thinking about this, I suspect that many people think of products that they bought new... especially something as personal as a smartphone... as their very own personalized gadget, because no one else had ever owned it.

So if it fails, they expect either their own personal device to be repaired, or to get another new device of which they would again be the sole owner.

It's a bit like buying a new car that breaks down. You expect either that it be repaired, or that you get a new one. What you do not expect, is to get someone else's used car with unknown mileage and history, even if it has new paint, windshield and battery.

 

[44267547]

No they dont do that. They test whole parts then replace them. They dont repair them. They frankenstein devices and call them refurbed for sale and for service parts.

In some respects they do this. Depends on what they are replacing as well. Any Apple Senior Advisor will blatantly admit this. Their devices in which are replaced are titled as 'Replacement Units or Devices. " If the customer asks questions, they will openly admit what ever they CAN provide you with, otherwise your in the dark, which is what most companies prefer, less conflict.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

In some respects they do this. Depends on what they are replacing as well. Any Apple Senior Advisor will blatantly admit this. Their devices in which are replaced are titled as 'Replacement Units or Devices. " If the customer asks questions, they will openly admit what ever they CAN provide you with, otherwise your in the dark, which is what most companies prefer, less conflict.

Although they have no way of knowing if the replacement iPhone they're providing you is brand new or remanufactured and can't tell you even if their lives depend on it. We haven't been able to glean from the serial number whether a unit is brand new or refurb since the iPhone 4 days.

 

[Deuce on the Clock]

In some respects they do this. Depends on what they are replacing as well. Any Apple Senior Advisor will blatantly admit this. Their devices in which are replaced are titled as 'Replacement Units or Devices. " If the customer asks questions, they will openly admit what ever they CAN provide you with, otherwise your in the dark, which is what most companies prefer, less conflict.

I was referring to logic boards specifically on both macs and mobile devices. They don't repair them at all. They use boards from returned units or scrapped units and test them then use them. I worked for them for over 14 years, i know the game. I wouldn't touch a refurb. Play the slots you're better off. I wouldn't take a "replacement" device for a mobile unit either.