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You can’t force there to be more competitors in the market than the market will support. We used to have several and the market decided only two could be supported. This isn’t all that different than the desktop market, Windows and macOS. Yeah there’s Linux, but it’s quite niche. It makes sense why markets don’t support a wide range of OS’s. Popular developers aren’t going to spend the time putting their apps on six different OS’s. They’re probably going to pick the one or two most popular. A lack of important apps then kills off the less popular OS’s. At this point, all governments are left to do is regulate the ones that survive since new competition isn’t going to be coming in to disrupt the market. Windows and Mac have been the only two significant desktop platforms for decades and that’s almost certainly going to tone the case in smartphones with iOS and Android as well.
Hang on, developers are the ones complaining about one of the two options available.

Surely developers are desperate to make their apps available on any/all competing operating systems that emerge so that these operating systems have to compete for the developers talents?
 
Hang on, developers are the ones complaining about one of the two options available.

Surely developers are desperate to make their apps available on any/all competing operating systems that emerge so that no on operating system impacts their business?
No, Epic is complaining. They don't speak for developers collectively.
 
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it's funny how all this moaning would stop if people who dont like the "walled garden" just didnt buy the iphone. And developers who didnt like the terms and conditions just cancelled their contracts and stopped making software on the platform. Is that not democracy? Freedom of choice?

I dont know of any goverment service that mandates the use of an iOS product. So its not some neccessary tool for life.

And just to labour the point, it's not like Apple pulled a fast one and changed the rules half way through developers signing these contracts. They were always there.

Let the market decide right? If people like things they stay and if people dont they die.
right? People didnt like Blackberry and Nokia so they died. Simple.
When they start interfering with this freedom of choice, the only satisfaction I get is knowing that even if those regulators get their way, it doesn't turn out the way they wanted. Like GDPR.
 
While it's not strictly mandated, it is becoming increasingly impractical living without a smartphone. An de facto there's only two or three different brands of operating systems available - when purchasing a phone and when choosing a platform to download apps.
Yes, there's Android. Go use that.

Also, it's not impractical not to have a smartphone. After my iPhone broke, I didn't have one for several months this year, and I didn't miss it, nor am I Amish. The only serious thing that's changed is how there are no longer pay-phones everywhere, but a dumb phone solves that too.

  • Public transport with journey planning and mobile ticket sales.
  • Ride-hailing and cab-hailing.
  • Mobile banking and credit cards.
  • Mobile payment.
  • Medical / health services.
  • COVID tracking and tracing.
  • Customs declaration and clearance.
  • Emergency and disaster alerts.
  • Videoconferencing for job interviews.
  • ID checking for residence permit / visa applications.
  • Tax account administration.
  • Personal messaging (iMessage, WhatsApp).
- They always have kiosks for train tickets. If anything, mobile ticketing is rarer to come by.
- Though Uber is really nice, cab-hailing works the same way it always did. Actually cabs are cheaper now to compete with Uber.
- Credit cards also work the same. Apple Pay isn't even easier, and you can't use it in many places (like most restaurants). Never seen anyone use it except myself one time.
- What medical services require a phone? I got covid tested so many times, and it never involved my phone.
- COVID tracing was relevant for a few months only, not anymore. And even then it didn't really matter.
- Been through customs several times, and idk what a smartphone has to do with it.
- The emergency alerts are so misused that I turned them off long ago. Worse than pointless for the city of SF to buzz my phone to alert me about "high" (80s) temperatures.
- Any PC can do a video conference. Is the point to take an interview while walking outside?
- IDK what residence permits have to do with phones.
- Who does taxes on their phone and not a PC? TurboTax doesn't even work on anything but Windows.
- Personal messaging, in a country where SMS isn't viable, is the only possible reason for a smartphone. In the US, that's not an issue. But any cheap cereal box Android phone can run WhatsApp.
 
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Hang on, developers are the ones complaining about one of the two options available.

Surely developers are desperate to make their apps available on any/all competing operating systems that emerge so that these operating systems have to compete for the developers talents?
Developers complain about Apple’s enormous market power, not that there are too few platforms. The former is simply a consequence of the latter. Devs want to reach as many potential customers as possible with the least amount of resources. Efficiency, same as any other company. If there were four OS’s in the market and two had 45% market share each and the other two only had 5% each, the vast majority of devs would develop for the big two and say forget about the other smaller two, the return on investment won’t be worth it.
 
Yes, there's Android. Go use that.

Also, it's not impractical not to have a smartphone. After my iPhone broke, I didn't have one for several months this year, and I didn't miss it, nor am I Amish. The only serious thing that's changed is how there are no longer pay-phones everywhere, but a dumb phone solves that too.
Yes, I can’t wait to use Mapquest and print out directions on my home printer rather than use a smartphone the next time I need to get somewhere new. Let’s live like it’s 2001 again.

Technically nobody needs anything but food, water, and shelter. However, last I checked most people aren’t out there subsistence farming. Just because something is possible doesn’t make it practical. If it’s so practical to live without a smartphone in 2021, why did you bother getting a new one?
 
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Developers complain about Apple’s enormous market power, not that there are too few platforms. The former is simply a consequence of the latter. Devs want to reach as many potential customers as possible with the least amount of resources. Efficiency, same as any other company. If there were four OS’s in the market and two had 45% market share each and the other two only had 5% each, the vast majority of devs would develop for the big two and say forget about the other smaller two, the return on investment won’t be worth it.
But the developers actions are precisely what causes the concentration of power. They need to stop preferencing certain platforms over others. If app developers had bothered themselves to make their apps for iOS, android and windows phone then there would be less power concentration at the OS layer.
 
But the developers actions are precisely what causes the concentration of power. They need to stop preferencing certain platforms over others. If app developers had bothered themselves to make their apps for iOS, android and windows phone then there would be less power concentration at the OS layer.
Devs certainly play a role, but it’s also consumers and the smartphone companies as well that caused the concentration. Apple basically invented the modern smartphone so it’s no surprise consumers chose them in significant numbers. I’m not really sure why Google was able to beat out both MS and RIM, but they did. And smaller devs aren’t necessarily going to have the resources to develop for a bunch of platforms, even if they wanted to. Even if major players are on all the platforms, if popular apps from smaller devs aren’t on the lesser platforms, that’s still going to draw people away from those smaller platforms. A small dev isn’t going to go on some crusade in an effort to maximize the number of platforms at the expense of their own business.
 
True but what do you do if an app you really want is only in a third party store?

1) You install and configure an additional app store and get the app

2) You don't get the app

3) Today: You get the app without installing an additional stores because developers feel forced to be in the App Store

#3 is the better choice for me. I don't even want #1 and #2 be possible.
I doubt apps will be offered on 3rd party app stores and not on apple’s. Maybe the other way around.
 
Devs certainly play a role, but it’s also consumers and the smartphone companies as well that caused the concentration. Apple basically invented the modern smartphone so it’s no surprise consumers chose them in significant numbers. I’m not really sure why Google was able to beat out both MS and RIM, but they did. And smaller devs aren’t necessarily going to have the resources to develop for a bunch of platforms, even if they wanted to. Even if major players are on all the platforms, if popular apps from smaller devs aren’t on the lesser platforms, that’s still going to draw people away from those smaller platforms. A small dev isn’t going to go on some crusade in an effort to maximize the number of platforms at the expense of their own business.
So if the competitive market has spoken and this is what consumers and developers have chosen, then what is the problem?
 
Yes, there's Android. Go use that.

Also, it's not impractical not to have a smartphone. After my iPhone broke, I didn't have one for several months this year, and I didn't miss it, nor am I Amish. The only serious thing that's changed is how there are no longer pay-phones everywhere, but a dumb phone solves that too.


Here in Australia, all the payphones are still on the streets, it’s just that the operator, Telstra, has made them all free to use.

 
Yes, I can’t wait to use Mapquest and print out directions on my home printer rather than use a smartphone the next time I need to get somewhere new. Let’s live like it’s 2001 again.

Technically nobody needs anything but food, water, and shelter. However, last I checked most people aren’t out there subsistence farming. Just because something is possible doesn’t make it practical. If it’s so practical to live without a smartphone in 2021, why did you bother getting a new one?
It's better to have a smartphone, but it's not a big deal because nothing has become reliant on smartphones. It's not like using a 2001 Macintosh today, which is much worse than using the same machine in 2001 when software and websites were designed for it.
 
Not everyone want a giant mega corp to have total control of his/her life and determine what decision he/she should make.

In fact, people have been calling out breaking up these mega corps because they are way too powerful.
Agreed mate. I dunno why people think they have to be for/against a company in litigation.

I mean more options, more apps & more competitive prices all benefit us as customers.

While I've chosen Apple since 1984... I'm a CUSTOMER above all. It's not as if Apple can do no wrong and I've gotta take their side in litigation. Let's see what the courts say! This is litigation that will test legal principles... not a football game.
 
Well, I guess you do own the bits stored in the device, but you do not have IP rights to the OS. If you do manage to sell the OS to someone else and not get into legal trouble, do let us know so that we can also do it and make some extra cash.
Oeniga a product doesn’t mean I can sell copies of Thai product. It would still infringe on their copy rights. I could sell my iPhone with jailbreak already installed etc
I do not think Apple cares if you change the OS of the devices Apple sells once you bought them. You have every right to do it, since you own the device. You are not allowed, from what I understand, to re-distribute your changes. You are also not allowed to make a business of the those changes, because, you do not own the IPs.
Apple do care, otherwise they wouldn’t explicitly say so in the EULA.
If you think you owned the OS once you bought the device, I suppose you also feels that you owned the movies that you bought the movie DVDs? If you owned them, that means you can make copies and sell it for profit? That's the meaning of ownership correct?
I can make as many copies as I want of my DVD, movies, games iPhone OSs etc as for private use. Because I own that copy I payed for and can modify indiscriminately
If I produce a copy and distribute it I literally produce a fake copy. Same way I can produce fiske rolexes for my self, but i can’t distribute them as then I sell someone else’s IP.
US copyright laws have no legal power.
 
Hang on, developers are the ones complaining about one of the two options available.

Surely developers are desperate to make their apps available on any/all competing operating systems that emerge so that these operating systems have to compete for the developers talents?

Developers aren't complaining, Epic are. I earn more on the AppStore and Steam than I ever manages when selling boxed software and more than I could possibly earn via the Epic Game Store. I do not want trust in the AppStore eroded, I want customers to know if they buy something that they are Apple's customer and not mine.
 
Partially correct. Amex lends their cardholders money.
That’s why I only mentioned visa and MasterCard.
It means its irrelevant what a random US court thinks if EU decide it is. Apple will jut add apt to the biggest market
It did go perfectly also from apples perspective.
It didn’t, it was a Pr ******** and apple stopped using the loophole before the trial ended. If it was perfect they would still use it.
Okay. Let me know when something changes.
It’s already here. It will be implemented in 2023 as borth parlament and the commission have shown overwhelming support and practicaly guaranteed to pass
 
Apple is not a Monopoly.I also hope they win and continuing winning. Epic doesn't care about you or small developers now do they.
But Epic didn’t hurt them.
Dude apple tracks all your activity, they also scan your photos.

There is a moment when this needs to be fair.

that privacy thing they launched is just to have the apps being sold instead of getting pay by advertising. That way they can always have their cut.

letting users buy outside, breaks their plan
 
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During this mess, Apple has stated numerous times that their App Store is important as a closed system, so they can protect customers from apps that Apple has not reviewed for privacy and safety.

By that logic, I suppose Apple doesn’t care about the privacy and safety of its Mac users, since they are free to install anything from any source.
 
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So if the competitive market has spoken and this is what consumers and developers have chosen, then what is the problem?
The devs believe the problem is that the resulting market has led Apple and Google to have too much power and that they’ve used it in an anti-competitive manner. Based on court and legislative actions we’re seeing the world over, there seems to be some merit to that belief.
 
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That’s why I only mentioned visa and MasterCard.

It means its irrelevant what a random US court thinks if EU decide it is. Apple will jut add apt to the biggest market

It didn’t, it was a Pr ******** and apple stopped using the loophole before the trial ended. If it was perfect they would still use it.

It’s already here. It will be implemented in 2023 as borth parlament and the commission have shown overwhelming support and practicaly guaranteed to pass
Yes, Amex lends money (as well as processes payments) which is why you couldn’t mention it.

Ireland tax was overturned in court. And lets reconvene when apple allows side loading and alternate payment methods.
 
The devs believe the problem is that the resulting market has led Apple and Google to have too much power and that they’ve used it in an anti-competitive manner. Based on court and legislative actions we’re seeing the world over, there seems to be some merit to that belief.
The US trial boiled down to a contractual dispute which epic lost. That doesn’t bode well for devs telling apple how to run their business.
 
Apple needs to face competition. There are many reasons why this is necessary.
- In the first place Apple is the single point of failure in this scenario. When Russia wanted to remove the Nawalny App, it just needed to call Apple to remove the Nawalny App from public access. Same is true for all other regimes.
- Apple's Services compete with other services like Apple Music competes with Spotify. Spotify has to pay Apple taxes which is anti competitive.
- With Google and Apple we have exactly two Gatekeepers for the whole planet. Two companies want to take control over the whole word. They want to control the app markets, payment systems and information.
 
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Yes, Amex lends money (as well as processes payments) which is why you couldn’t mention it.
I’m not sure 33% correct is anything to brag about.

The US trial boiled down to a contractual dispute which epic lost. That doesn’t bode well for devs telling apple how to run their business.
I’ve seen people mention the fact that Apple is appealing the last point they lost on and that it could be overturned. Epic is also appealing and those other nine points could be overturned as well. And it’s a good thing the US isn’t the only country in the world. Apple’s already been forced to make changes and this doesn’t appear to be the last of it.
 
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