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How is what is exactly starting to happen now, speculation? You really just don’t want to take those rose colored glasses off huh?
What is happening now that is going to make Apple change its business model? I think you are making much ado about nothing. Even IF the largest market (EU) decides to end Apple’s exclusivity on the AppStore, they have no jurisdiction over how Apple operates globally and can’t force Apple to open access to its phones in other jurisdictions. Sure you may find a few EU devs happy to only sell to EU citizens directly but as we have learned recently that the majority of IAPs are for games and those developers want a global audience (as do most other developers), it is unlikely that will make any dent in Apple‘s business model as Apple will still be free to enforce its AppStore rules as they are today on all cross-market sales. i.e. If you want you app in the AppStore of more than one country you will have to abide by Apple global AppStore policy. Apple also has the ability to incentivize devs to use AppStore IAP / Distribution with favorable commissions and no WTO member is going to bar Apple from collecting commissions (royalties) on its IP regardless of how apps are distributed. e.g. If South Korea expects Samsung to still collect patent licensing fees from Apple (or any other company) it won’t do anything to get in the way of Apple collecting comminsions from South Korean devs using external payment systems.
 
But Epic didn’t hurt them.
Dude apple tracks all your activity, they also scan your photos.

There is a moment when this needs to be fair.

that privacy thing they launched is just to have the apps being sold instead of getting pay by advertising. That way they can always have their cut.

letting users buy outside, breaks their plan
Apple didnt hurt Epic either.

Who wants to be tracked.

Apple may scan photos with certain identifiers in thirty iCloud service like all the other cloud services.

Apple still isn't a monopoly.

This still is only about big developers not the consumer or small developers
 
If the letter of the law is followed then Apple will not win this because their store is anti-competitive. Virtually every commercial enterprise on the planet that once held a dominant position in the market place was told to open themselves up to competition because a) it stopped them being dominant and thus able to dictate prices and b) doing so ultimatly benefits consumers. I do not see why other companies are told they cannot be dominant and dictate prices but yet Apple can.
If Apple loses the appeal it will not be because of what you wrote above. You sound like you know nothing about what the law actually says and are instead approaching the issue from a policy standpoint, which is more relevant in a state house or Congress than in the 9th Circuit.
 
Developer tools are distributed for free by Apple - they do not require the $99/year developer subscription. Developers want the option to distribute apps outside of Apple's distribution system - the fact developers have to do an end-run via IAP is a demonstration of that. They wouldn't need to do so if Apple let developers distribute their own apps.
They can do all this its called android.
 
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So your argument to my discussion about Apple allowing side loading is to have people get a Mac? No, side loading is not an open feature of iOS. Side loading on PS4 is allowed….if you hack it.

That’s not my argument at all. I’m giving you a solution to your problem, that is available today with the tools that I know that work (because I have done this myself).

There are other tools available for other platforms that allow deployment of iOS apps onto an iOS device using nothing other than the free developer account, and whatever it costs for those tools.

To say it can’t be done is disingenuous….it can. You just want it easy and free, which no company is obligated to provide.
 
I really dont think you have understood my answer - either becuase you won’t or just can’t understand it. Earlier a guy complained about his IPS being a monopoly in his area, and a more important case than Apple. But using your reasoning: there is nothing stoping another company or even himself investing $millions into building a rivaling infrastructure and then providing cheap (probably lower than cost) internet to his house - so what is his problem, right???
Elon Musk and Star-link (I believe that is the name) is aiming to solve that. Again, someone can move in the space (pun intended) and provide a solution to the problem. So long as no one is preventing it (another company) by illegal monopolistic means. So, yeah there is no problem. There was a case where an individual actually did setup his own ISP and ran fiber (on the poles) to the nearest ISP that was many miles away. He then distributed his connection to others in the town. The cost was high, but not insurmountable apparently, and for the cost he makes back a month. He seemed OK with doing it. Not all cases will be equal and or as easy. But, yes, you can do it.
Most modern monopolies are build on being successfull and developing the next big thing. Being successful is not the issue - but at some point the dominance one company have over the customers or other companies becomes to large, and then it becomes an issue.
Again, success is not illegal. Getting big is not illegal, they did nothing wrong to merit this action. Some people just don't like it. It's all thinking and feeling and opinion. Nothing based on past law and or regulation. If you operated a business and did nothing wrong, got successful doing it. And one day some politician or whatever decided I don't like it because well, I don't see any other competition in this space. Not that you did something wrong. Why would you continue to try? Why would you take the risk? Business is risk. Apple and or Google would have had nothing if they failed. No one would come and save them. They get it right, and we want to tear them down?

Again, they did nothing wrong. These rules are being made up to make what they are doing wrong. Which to me is BS.

Mobile devices has become a all dominant factor in todays world and Apple has therefore also become an all dominant power with its walled garden. Apple is destroying other companies being using the dominance of iOS in several ways, such as monopolistic price-setting
Google charges the same. And these two companies are not in it together.
Apples rules was:
Developer sets the price
70% developer 30% Apple cut to run the store - Since lowered to 15% for small devs making under a million p/y
No credit card fees (Apple takes care of that)
No Hosting Fees (Apple takes care of that)
No Marketing fees (apple takes care of that)
Paid Monthly
Most Apps are free, no charge to developer or customer (Apple takes care of that)

Just my opinion, but if In-App-Purchases are removed from Apple either totally or in part. What's to stop every single company/dev shop from not charging for any apps on the store (any App Store) and just moving to in-app-purchase to get the features for the apps that are free? So basically Apple does all that work above for free? Fair? I'm not one to think so.
, locking use of technology, and just copying/implementing features making whole companies/markets obsolete.
Locking use of tech has always been what Apple does. They don't play well with others. They go their own way almost all the time. Copy/Implementing features of others. Well to be fair, it happens to them too. they pay up when they get caught and they go after those that copy them.
There was several cases against Microsoft abusing its power and they didnt even have a walled garden in place.
They had well over 75% of the market as well. Very different set of circumstances. The walled garden is how Apple has historically operated. Not new, and not illegal. They have never been a monopoly or deemed one.
Saying that nothing is stoping Epic or other companies from just building a rivaling iOS platform is as stupid as asking someone to build his own ISP infrastructure because he is not happy with the current service/competition is his area
Both have been proved to be false. I'll have to hunt down that article of the man who literally ran fiber to the nearest ISP and then piggy backed off it reselling it to his neighbors. But, when the market was saturated with many different handset makers (mobile phones). Apple came in with hardware and an OS. No tackle keyboard (onscreen everything). No AppStore! Google and Android and what a sidekick type phone (can't remember exactly, but HTC something). Can't and won't are two separate things. In the US only NASA went to space. Now SpaceX and Blue Origin, Virgin Galatic in the UK. Don't tell me can't. No one wants to cause they fear losing. The risk is high but the reward could be more than worth it.
(Actually even more stupid, as mobile platform requires millions of users, phone manufactors and developers on board). As I said, there is a difference between been a fanboy and a sheep. For a fanboy it is okay to ask questions before bending over just because Apple ask you to, as a sheep you just do it. In the same manner it is okay to like the products but still ask questions about Apple policies.
All the sheep and stuff is fair. But, that's not the issue here. Just like I stated above, would it be fair if every app in the AppStore was free but, charged in-app-purchases to make it actually usable. While having a means in which to bypass Apple. Would that be fair? Would any government be stepping up to put a stop to it? I'd bet everyone would be fine with Apple spending all their money to build something for others to use for free. Should be a successful company just giving things away like that. Trusting that enough people will buy their stuff enough to support it.
90% of the apps on the store is free. They get paid by ads. If they use any in-app-purchasing is it so much to say, thank you Apple here is your 30% commission for suppling all the above? What should the price be, free? Barely enough to run the place? No price increases as well other price increases come down on Apple. They just eat the costs?
Just as only sheeps uses the term “we just like it that way” about everything Apple does.
some of us do like it the way it is. It works for us, you know the people that buy it. If we didn't like it, we would purchase something else. Why is your problem with this my problem? I don't have an issue with the 70-30 split and most apps being free. I don't have an issue with a developer getting 70% that otherwise would get what? nothing in a pirated world, or maybe half that in a retail store. And if developers really had an issue with that, it would not have gotten as big as it is now.

I have an issue with the idea that someone can go into a store, browse and pick something up off the shelf and go pay at a totally different register bypassing the store they are in. I think that sucks royally. I would challenge anyone to go to there local store for anything, and ask to pay the manufacture directly instead of the store and see how far that gets you. Or say, i bought this item online from the manufacture, here is the receipt, but I'm just going to take this item off the shelf cause it's faster, thanks bye!
Edit: You talk about increasing competition is the key for innovation. While supporting actions which only goal is to destroy all and have zero competition when users have walked inside the walled garden of Apple.
Let's not pretend that the walled garden of apple jumped out and sucked you in against your will. People have a choice. And they can choose to leave anytime they wish. And again, there is generally zero competition within any store. you want to use another store, you can go to another store. You don't like Apple's rules, you can sell you wares PC or Mac OS users, or if its a video game you can pick from Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, PC or Mac.
 
Of course it could be done, that’s irrelevant. The point is why should it HAVE to be done. Cars could be sold as empty frames and consumers could pick the parts. It would be a PITA for the vast majority of users. Same with forcing smartphones to be blank slates. Someone could do that today with Android. Why don’t they? Because people want a device they can actually USE out of the box, not something that takes hours to set up and requires far more knowledge.
Meanwhile, FORCING a company to do that against their will is utterly ridiculous. Customers can choose whether they want an iPhone or an Android phone now. That’s the choice. Use it.
Oh you’re absolutely correct. The choice of ecosystem lock in is made at the checkout counter. iPhones are not new and you know what you get when you buy into the Apple world. The problem is we’ve gotten to a point where a few loudmouth crybabies complained loud enough that it may end up ruining the experience for everyone. That being said, I don’t believe Apple should be allowed to do whatever it wants and screw users over unfettered.

I’ll add, this isn’t new in the world. There’s always problem people that dispute grievances the wrong way (and sometimes that’s the only option you’re left with) and make a mountain out of a mole. Running straight to the media to air dirty laundry is the absolute worst and most unproductive way to handle issues.

My stance on all of this hasn’t changed either. You’ve got a handful of developers who have profited and grown greatly off of the App Store’s success and now want to throw Apple under the bus and not pay the commission due. It doesn’t matter if it’s a mom & pop corner store or a large corporation. If you want to be a vendor on someone else’s property, you have to pay some kind of compensation for that privilege. You didn’t build that success, why are you entitled to profit on their dime? End of discussion.
 
Elon Musk and Star-link (I believe that is the name) is aiming to solve that. Again, someone can move in the space (pun intended) and provide a solution to the problem. So long as no one is preventing it (another company) by illegal monopolistic means. So, yeah there is no problem. There was a case where an individual actually did setup his own ISP and ran fiber (on the poles) to the nearest ISP that was many miles away. He then distributed his connection to others in the town. The cost was high, but not insurmountable apparently, and for the cost he makes back a month. He seemed OK with doing it. Not all cases will be equal and or as easy. But, yes, you can do it.

Again, success is not illegal. Getting big is not illegal, they did nothing wrong to merit this action. Some people just don't like it. It's all thinking and feeling and opinion. Nothing based on past law and or regulation. If you operated a business and did nothing wrong, got successful doing it. And one day some politician or whatever decided I don't like it because well, I don't see any other competition in this space. Not that you did something wrong. Why would you continue to try? Why would you take the risk? Business is risk. Apple and or Google would have had nothing if they failed. No one would come and save them. They get it right, and we want to tear them down?

Again, they did nothing wrong. These rules are being made up to make what they are doing wrong. Which to me is BS.
It's like you're trying to rewrite history. Natural monopolies, which are what you're describing in your second paragraph, commonly face regulations. You don't have to break the law to be subject to regulation. This is not some special new phenomenon created to target Apple.
 
Every physical store I have ever shopped in uses this model.

So you walk into a Walmart. Grab some stuff. Don't pay. Go home. And then you pay Nestle, or Kraft, or Proctor and Gamble directly?

I think you responded to something I didn't write.
 
No she didn't and second, you had to bring Trump into this? 🙄🙄🙄🙄
I just quoted the relevant ruling the judge wrote and you said the judge didn't say "Having found the relevant product market to be that of mobile gaming transactions, the Court finds the area of effective competition in the geographic market to be global, with the exception of China."?! That is why I brought Trump's supporters into it; they had and still have a tough time dealing with reality. I guess because it gets in way of the hallucinations. :p
 
Wait, Apple said publicly it was pleased with the ruling, now it wants to appeal it??
Apple won nine of ten elements and avoided the monopoly charge, so that’s very pleasing. And epic has to pay $12m or so for contract violations.

then epic appealed.

apple is merely saying that since epic appealed, the case is not final. Why not wait til the appeal is done before making changes that the upper court may not agree with.
 
Apple won nine of ten elements and avoided the monopoly charge, so that’s very pleasing. And epic has to pay $12m or so for contract violations.

then epic appealed.

apple is merely saying that since epic appealed, the case is not final. Why not wait til the appeal is done before making changes that the upper court may not agree with.
What about all the other similar lawsuits that Apple is losing to other countries? A bit awkward, no?
 
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The smartphone market was huge in 2006? Is that a joke? About 3% of the population had a smartphone in 2006. These days it’s over 80%. And Apple and Google succeeded by offering something that was friendly and useful to everyday consumers. Nobody had done that before, everything was business oriented before that. Everybody was on a level playing field back then as nobody had an App Store with millions of apps already on it. Anyone trying to come into the market these days are at an insurmountable disadvantage because without apps there are few potential consumers and with few potential consumers you’ll never get market penetration to the point where devs see value in developing for your platform.

Maybe we have a different definition of what a smartphone is.

The IBM Simpon Personal Communicator released in 1994 is considered the first smartphone in the world. It supported email, address book, calendar, appointment scheduler, calculator, world time clock, notepad, handwritten annotations, (predictive) stylus input screen keyboards. It could even send and receive faxes.

So in 2006 there existed a huge number of phones supporting so-called PIM functionality, also known as a SmartPhone. Symbian even supported application stores.
 
Maybe we have a different definition of what a smartphone is.

The IBM Simpon Personal Communicator released in 1994 is considered the first smartphone in the world. It supported email, address book, calendar, appointment scheduler, calculator, world time clock, notepad, handwritten annotations, (predictive) stylus input screen keyboards. It could even send and receive faxes.

So in 2006 there existed a huge number of phones supporting so-called PIM functionality, also known as a SmartPhone. Symbian even supported application stores.
And most people did not have those devices in 2006. Most people were still using flip phones.
 
No need. Why do you think Spotify sued apple in Europe and not in USA? Because they broke European law. American laws aren’t relevant even if apple is an American company.
every EU nation have legal agreements.
if this American company don’t show up they would be deemed guilty and have an invoice sent to them. Or a private debt collector would get the debt.

Spotify hasn't sued Apple in any European court to my knowledge. They did lodge a formal complaint with the EU Commission in March 2019.

It took the EU commission almost two years to come to a conclusion and they issued in April a "statement of objections" against Apple. Apple then had about 3 months to reply and I haven't seen the EU Commission make a formal judgement yet.

Such judgement could then be taken to court by Apple and then it would be EU Commission vs. Apple. Spotify would just play the role of the victim.

Looking at the timeline of the Commission vs. Ireland it startet 5 years ago and we're still waiting for the appeal case happening, it could be another 5-7 years before such a case is finished.

Spotify made their first (informal) complaint about Apple in 2017 and we could se close to 10 years for the case to reach an end. Even in Europe the wheels of justice turns slowly.
 
And most people did not have those devices in 2006. Most people were still using flip phones.

In Europe a lot of people had Nokia and Ericsson phones which ran Symbian and supported many of those functionalities.

About 64 million smartphones were sold worldwide just in 2006.

Statista says global smartphone sales were 122 million devices in 2007 when Apple entered in the last part of the year.
 
That’s is exactly what the South Korean law states. Apple can’t force them to use apples IAP or deny apps with their own IAP system.
apple would just remove a revenue stream with zero effect on developers.

Well, Apple have now stated they are in compliance with the South Korean law.

I can't say I have seen any earth shattering changes, at least not in the western world.
 
Charging developers to enroll in the developer program, then charging them again as a percentage of their revenue for apps sold in Apple's AppStore (since Apple doesn't let developers bypass the store to distribute their apps).

So what? If Apple can find 100 ways to get a developer to pay for stuff that's not illegal or wrong in and of itself.

In a lot of situations, both consumers and business, have pay structures which are multi-factored.
 
I care, because their profits can show that they are quite literally ripping me off. Now we are here because multiple nations and courts have agreed that apple is indeed ripping you off. You are free to be robbed blind.

You are literally subscribing to a service not purchasing a song. I know a lot of music fans that would rather pay more to the artist than the store if they could, and they do when they can. You’re arguing like it’s a bad thing I would be against more information.

I can, as I can see that when I bought Spotify for 10$ a month.
VAT:2.5$
apple: 3$
Spotify: 4,5$ to share.
but Apple Music:
VAT: 2.5$
Apple: 7.5$ share

Well no ****, om Tallinn about theor CDs, iTunes or other places they sell the music. Not streaming it

I can get music from anywhere on my iPhone, I can’t get my apps from anywhere but the App Store. Spotify have Competition. Apple App Store have zero competition.
why do you think nobody cares about the Mac App Store?

I don't care since I care about the value it offers me. How much someone profits on me isn't that interesting.

You are literally getting a license for the app or buying the right to use a service in the App Store also. You are not literally buying the software or the service itself.

Is it about competition or the percentage? Haven't you argued you want to see detailed prices so you can see the percentage Apple takes? Now it is about competition ?
 
Agree with what you wrote except as someone corrected me, the training and materials are provided by Apple for free. Apple only charges for the developer program if the developer wants to distribute his app, then charges him again by taking a cut of the app sales revenue. Apple should either charge more for the developer program or only charge a percentage of sales. Apple will eventually be forced to acquiesce and allow developers to distribute apps via alternate means - when that happens I expect the price for the developer program will get materially more expensive (or will be split into two tiers, based on how the developer will be distributing the app). When that happens the previous practice of double-dipping will be more obvious.

No, Apple charge the membership fee even if you never submit an app for the App Store. It was quite a common a few years ago for normal end users to become developers so they could early access to iOS betas. They had to pay the fee also.

Basically you are saying the following about Apple's fee structure:

f(x) = ax is OK
f(x) = c is OK
f(x) = ax + c is not OK

It's discriminations against certain linear functions on your part!
 
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I do not see why other companies are told they cannot be dominant and dictate prices but yet Apple can.

They absolute can be dominant and a monopoly in the US. In the recent ruling, Apple was found not to be a monopoly in the relevant market, leaving Apple even more freedom to what they want.
 
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