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But if the part breaks the car you’re on your own. The manufacturer is under no obligation to fix the damage under warranty.
IF a 3rd party part damages your vehicle, the retailer/wholesaler/manufacturer of the 3rd party part would be liable for the damage it causes to your vehicle.

If however the damage is not directly, provably attributable to the 3rd party part, companies are specifically prohibited from using the presence of a 3rd party component to deny a warranty claim, or refuse to provide service.

At least in sane jurisdictions.
 
Not true. You can get games/apps from the app store or use safari for web apps.
And also because they don’t need to have more than that... the reason why Nintendo puts their games online, on BestBuy, on GameStop, Walmart, etc is because they want to sell more. And the fee they take for each Nintendo platform game sold from the developer is ultimately the same plus even more for the physical version of said game distribution.
I still don’t get why people say that it’s ok for Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony/etc to take 30%~50% or more for developing and selling on their exclusive platforms (some games completely monopolized to a specific one only) because that fee is charged from many sourced places (even if the content digital fingerprint is the same) while Apple is in the wrong because it charges 15% to 30% from only one place... what gives? If Apple sold its apps on Walmart and charged 50% fees it would be ok? Is that it?
 
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IF a 3rd party part damages your vehicle, the retailer/wholesaler/manufacturer of the 3rd party part would be liable for the damage it causes to your vehicle.

If however the damage is not directly, provably attributable to the 3rd party part, companies are specifically prohibited from using the presence of a 3rd party component to deny a warranty claim, or refuse to provide service.

At least in sane jurisdictions.
Off the beaten path now, but if one puts in a third party ECU and the engine blows up, the manufacturer would not be required to fix the engine under warranty.
 
Off the beaten path now, but if one puts in a third party ECU and the engine blows up, the manufacturer would not be required to fix the engine under warranty.
If the engine blows up for reasons that are not attributable to the presence, or functioning of the ECU, like a head gasket going, or a timing belt breaking, yes, they would.
 
I still don’t get why people say that it’s ok for Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony/etc to take 30%~50% or more for developing and selling on their exclusive platforms (some games completely monopolized to a specific one only) because that fee is charged from many sourced places (even if the content digital fingerprint is the same) while Apple is in the wrong because it charges 15% to 30% from only one place... what gives? If Apple sold its apps on Walmart and charged 50% fees it would be ok? Is that it?

Because Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc sell their consoles at a loss in order to make the addressable markets for the developers larger, by lowering the entry cost for the customer, and leaving more money in the customer's pockets to buy said games.

That's what's most valuable to the developers - having a critical mass of units sold. 1000 units sold making $10 each is worse than 2000 units making $5 each.
 
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Because Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc sell their consoles at a loss in order to make the addressable markets for the developers larger, by lowering the entry cost for the customer, and leaving more money in the customer's pockets to buy said games.

That's what's most valuable to the developers - having a critical mass of units sold. 1000 units sold making $10 each is worse than 2000 units making $5 each.
So if they didn't sell their device at a loss, then we should be able to force those platforms to open their devices?

Let's say Nintendo released a hypothetical device that they aimed to sell for profit, would that mean they could no longer take a cut of games released for their platform?
 
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So if they didn't sell their device at a loss, then we should be able to force those platforms to open their devices?

Let's say Nintendo released a hypothetical device that they aimed to sell for profit, would that mean they could no longer take a cut of games released for their platform?
The fact they do sell their devices at a loss means they're not comparable. But certainly for the PS5 and XboxSeriesX, they're effectively just subsidised mid-spec gaming PCs. If they were to be sold for full retail cost, no doubt they'd be just like the ordinary gaming PC world, where you can buy games on any number of storefronts.

But again, all gaming consoles do is games, iPhones are more like general-purpose desktop computers than they are like games consoles.
 
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Because Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft etc sell their consoles at a loss in order to make the addressable markets for the developers larger, by lowering the entry cost for the customer, and leaving more money in the customer's pockets to buy said games.

That's what's most valuable to the developers - having a critical mass of units sold. 1000 units sold making $10 each is worse than 2000 units making $5 each.
Nintendo doesn’t sell anything at a loss.

Technically it would be the same but the 2000 units at $5 might be a little worse for the developer because then there are more copies out there that if it was physical media could be resold or lent out to others netting them no extra profit.

Either way just because Sony/Microsoft may decide to sell their hardware at a loss doesn’t excuse them from taking the same cut if its deemed excessive (it’s not). If it’s fair for them to take 30% then it’s fair for everyone else (including Apple) too.
 
Either way just because Sony/Microsoft may decide to sell their hardware at a loss doesn’t excuse them from taking the same cut if its deemed excessive (it’s not). If it’s fair for them to take 30% then it’s fair for everyone else (including Apple) too.
No, it's not, because it ignores THE fundamental characteristic of the market. The fact that they both charge 30% is irrelevant, when one of those markets is for products whose price to consumers is around half what it would otherwise be.
 
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The car company would need to be able to prove the 3rd party ECU was responsible, the mere presence would be insufficient. But yes, out in the weeds here.
Don’t expect anything to change as a result of this fine. (And yes we are in the weeds, but I would expect the car company would prevail here, given the primary function of the ecu is to control the engine...as well as limit the rpms)
 
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No, it's not, because it ignores THE fundamental characteristic of the market. The fact that they both charge 30% is irrelevant, when one of those markets is for products whose price to consumers is around half what it would otherwise be.
The fact that they both charge 30% is the point. They all sell apps/games. Fair is fair. Just because some of them want to lose money to sell more hardware doesn’t entitle them to make it up through software sales cuts.

it’s amazing how hypocritical people are on this. Fair is fair. Either 30% is good or it’s bad. You don’t get to play favorites just because you feel sorry that Sony/Microsoft made a business decision to not sell their hardware for profit and Apple doesn’t.

In fact since Apple lowers that to 15% in many cases now they are actually better than Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. Where is the outcry for those companies to lower their cut to 15% for the small developers?
 
No, it's not, because it ignores THE fundamental characteristic of the market. The fact that they both charge 30% is irrelevant, when one of those markets is for products whose price to consumers is around half what it would otherwise be.
There are two markets though. One is the market for the hardware device and the second is the market for software. In the hardware market Apple have far from a monopoly and the market share they’ve got has slowly grown from the launch of the iPhone. There is no evidence that they’ve used inappropriate business practices to maintain their market share, arguably by limiting software choice on the iPhone they reduce the potential market for the hardware.

The problem is that Google’s undercutting of the OEM software operating system market for mobile devices resulted in a collapse of competition with the only competing platform to Google being provided by Apple. Remember when the iPhone launched and Microsoft laughed at it because it didn’t have a keyboard, RIM (Blackberry) dismissed it because it didn’t have “enterprise features” and Nokia said it had decades of experience building phones and the PC guys weren’t going to just waltz in and take the market. Google allegedly had a head start on the rest of the market and was able to build an open operating system that they gave away to OEMs, they built first party developer tooling for it and provided immediate integration into Google’s services.

There exists a wide array of options for vendors like Epic to have their software run on Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS devices, Android devices, the PlayStation, Xbox and Switch. We know this because Fortnite ran on almost all of them (where is Fortnite Linux?!?). Any of these other devices or platforms are more than capable of running Fortnite and as such there is no impedance to accessing the market.

What we see is folk wanting to use the courts and governments to compel Apple to provide access to their intellectual property in ways Apple doesn’t want to license it. The countries around the world that don’t make any real money out of Apple can easily sanction them for what ever transgression of law they want to make up. It’s almost sporting for the EU to sue everyone and pat itself on the back for making a difference (I feel for AstraZeneca, no good deed goes unpunished in the EU). None of these multinationals have the bulk of their revenue, they have minimal local employment and the impact to their own citizens is nothing. It’s easy to make a law to punish a company that makes no difference to your own nation.

One wonders where the line will be where a country writes a law and the major tech vendors decide they can’t comply and just leave.
 
The fact that they both charge 30% is the point. They all sell apps/games. Fair is fair. Just because some of them want to lose money to sell more hardware doesn’t entitle them to make it up through software sales cuts.

Seriously, what is it you can't fathom about the fact that games consoles are a subsidised hardware model, where the console maker takes a loss on the console to increase game sales, and then gets back the subsidy from the games?

it’s amazing how hypocritical people are on this. Fair is fair. Either 30% is good or it’s bad. You don’t get to play favorites just because you feel sorry that Sony/Microsoft made a business decision to not sell their hardware for profit and Apple doesn’t.
30% is fair, when the platform owner takes an upfront loss to increase sales of the platform's content (games / apps).

So yes, fair is fair - if Apple sold the iPhone for a ~50% loss, 30% would be "as" fair for them, as it is for Microsoft / Sony

But Apple doesn't, because the iPhone is a completely different business model to games consoles, and it's an idiotic argument to suggest they're the same, or directly comparable (which is why it's a favourite argument of John Gruber).

In fact since Apple lowers that to 15% in many cases now they are actually better than Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo. Where is the outcry for those companies to lower their cut to 15% for the small developers?

They're still selling the console below cost in order to increase the developer's addressable market.
 
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There are two markets though. One is the market for the hardware device and the second is the market for software. In the hardware market Apple have far from a monopoly and the market share they’ve got has slowly grown from the launch of the iPhone. There is no evidence that they’ve used inappropriate business practices to maintain their market share, arguably by limiting software choice on the iPhone they reduce the potential market for the hardware.

Unfortunately for your argument, regulators world-wide don't agree with your assessment of things. Regulators are saying Apple DO have a monopoly, on the basis that the "market" by which they measure Apple's market share and market power, is iOS, not Smartphones, and that within that market Payment Processing, app binary hosting, storefronts etc are different, separate services that are not naturally bound to the operating system vendor, and so for said vendor to restrict third parties from offering them is a classic case of using a monopoly to protect, or extend a business into a different business segment.

The simple fact is that most people seem to have internalised a definition of what the "market" is, that simply doesn't match the one that regulators are using.

As for inappropriate business practices, Apple is already a convicted antitrust felon with regards to their efforts to fix the price of eBooks, so yes, there is ample evidence of their willingness to break laws to get what they want.
 
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Unfortunately for your argument, regulators world-wide don't agree with your assessment of things. Regulators are saying Apple DO have a monopoly, on the basis that the "market" by which they measure Apple's market share and market power, is iOS, not Smartphones, and that within that market Payment Processing, app binary hosting, storefronts etc are different, separate services that are not naturally bound to the operating system vendor, and so for said vendor to restrict third parties from offering them is a classic case of using a monopoly to protect, or extend a business into a different business segment.

The simple fact is that most people seem to have internalised a definition of what the "market" is, that simply doesn't match the one that regulators are using.

As for inappropriate business practices, Apple is already a convicted antitrust felon with regards to their efforts to fix the price of eBooks, so yes, there is ample evidence of their willingness to break laws to get what they want.
This hasn't been said in the US, and whether it comes to pass yet remains to be seen. Regulators world-wide haven't agreed the ios app store is a monopoly, snd whether it comes to pass in the entirety of the world remains to be seen.

And you may believe whatever judgement happened to Apple in the past is relevant, I believe it's not relevant. Only time will tell.
 
The fact they do sell their devices at a loss means they're not comparable. But certainly for the PS5 and XboxSeriesX, they're effectively just subsidised mid-spec gaming PCs. If they were to be sold for full retail cost, no doubt they'd be just like the ordinary gaming PC world, where you can buy games on any number of storefronts.

But again, all gaming consoles do is games, iPhones are more like general-purpose desktop computers than they are like games consoles.
I understand where you want to come from and how to balance it all. But honestly, who forced the game console makers to sell at a loss (excluding Nintendo, they don’t)? If tomorrow Ford and Toyota decided on their own accord to start losing money for each car sold as a business strategy, then what, we should feel sorry about it and allow them to gouge the third party aftermarket manufacturers for each piece they sell? That premise doesn’t make sense for me really... also the consumer is the one paying the upfront cause of said console or device, the fee is for the developers themselves.
 
I understand where you want to come from and how to balance it all. But honestly, who forced the game console makers to sell at a loss (excluding Nintendo, they don’t)? If tomorrow Ford and Toyota decided on their own accord to start losing money for each car sold as a business strategy, then what, we should feel sorry about it and allow them to gouge the third party aftermarket manufacturers for each piece they sell? That premise doesn’t make sense for me really... also the consumer is the one paying the upfront cause of said console or device, the fee is for the developers themselves.

They're not "losing money" on the consoles as such, they're subsidising the cost to the consumer by shifting revenue from the hardware, to the software. The effect of this subsidy, however, is to increase developer sales, by putting more money in the consumer's pockets, and in video games units sold, and popularity / critical mass is arguably the most important metric.

Games consoles do actually have a cellphone equivalent - but it's not Apple's sales model, it's the carrier-subsidised phone sales model.

The carrier sells discounted phones, and then makes it up again by charging more for the talk / data plans. If you pay full price for the phone, the talk and data is cheaper. Noone would seriously suggest the people getting subsidised phones should also be able to get the cheaper non-subsidised call/data plans, but that's effectively wheat people are saying when they argue MS/Sony should have whatever rules are applied to Apple, also applied to them.

Again, you look at Windows gaming, which is effectively the same as console gaming, except that the hardware isn't subsidised, there's dozens of independent app stores, taking commissions from over 30%, down to under 12% for Microsoft's own store.

I suspect that is where regulators will eventually look at things, because Apple's current arguments are all being shredded rather effectively day by day in various cases - testimony has shown that Apple hasn't grown their app review team at pace (or at all) as the App Store's revenue has grown, so the whole "revenue neutral" argument is failing, and that the App Review process was not considered internally part of the security process (security being enforced by the Operating System, not the store).

On top of that, Kosta Eleftheriou's documentary efforts have made a mockery of the argument that the App Store is objectively a "safe" place to get apps, by showing how thoroughly inept the App Review, and how thoroughly corrupt the Customer Review systems are.

My suspicion is that regulators world-wide will eventually decide that App Stores, Payment Processing, Binary Hosting etc are natural separate businesses to the business of vending hardware and Operating Systems, and the case will end up looking more like the Microsoft's Internet Explorer trial (where the browser was determined to be a separate application, and not an Operating System component, regardless of how Microsoft engineered it).

Regulators will proceed on the basis that iOS and Android are separate "markets" (as they have been consistently saying), and that "the freedom to change to a different market" is not an acceptable remedy for customers, or third party developers, to the outsized power the market owners wield.

Whether regulation from that flows back to console gaming is something to consider after it's applied, because regulations aren't blunt instruments that have to be applied everywhere equally, they're not people's parents or schoolteachers settling playground fights. They contain a greater nuance than most people in the Apple media-verse want to credit. Perhaps that's because most of them are based in America, which has had dysfunctional regulatory systems for several regimes now, so they think that's "normal".

It could very well be that once Apple is regulated into having to offer multiple app stores for their unsubsidised hardware, they launch a subsidised hardware option tied to their App Store, which is so popular, everyone wants to buy their apps from Apple's store. Apple might even have grounds to argue that MS & Sony are engaged in illegal product dumping by subsidising hardware below cost.

But again, regulating Apple is about what Apple does in isolation, not about anyone else. Billy kicking the puppy is wrong, regardless of whether Jenny is punching the kitten.
 
The carrier sells discounted phones, and then makes it up again by charging more for the talk / data plans. If you pay full price for the phone, the talk and data is cheaper. Noone would seriously suggest the people getting subsidised phones should also be able to get the cheaper non-subsidised call/data plans, but that's effectively wheat people are saying when they argue MS/Sony should have whatever rules are applied to Apple, also applied to them.
I just went to AT&T and picked the shiny new iPhone in purple and I can buy it for $10/month if I tie it to their unlimited plan. Except the plan isn't subsidised, the plan costs the same with or without the phone. What changes is that if I sign up for their higher tier plans I get a discount on my phone. The trick there is that the plan price remains the same and when I pay off the phone finally in effect I'm losing the $10 discount on the phone payment plan. This model is more about locking the customer into a two year plan to retain them with the service with the incentive of having a new phone out of the deal.

Microsoft and Sony got into a spec waving competition for their consoles, originally started by Microsoft needing a way to get into the market and compete against the existing players (Sony, Nintendo and Sega). However loss leaders are there to provide increased value hopefully offset by long term investment in the ecosystem. A console is not a cheap purchase and the subsequent games are also significant investments further ensuring profitability on the initial console. We also see both platforms pushing their subscription services as well with the game studio acquisitions to ensure exclusive platform specific content.

What I'd be interested in seeing though is the legal basis of why Apple or Nintendo that don't sell their devices for a loss should be forced to license their intellectual property for nothing. I know Mr Sweeney mentioned it a bunch of times but it seemed conspicuously absent from their actual legal complaint. Perhaps Epic's lawyers don't believe it to be a valid argument?

Again, you look at Windows gaming, which is effectively the same as console gaming, except that the hardware isn't subsidised, there's dozens of independent app stores, taking commissions from over 30%, down to under 12% for Microsoft's own store.
For me this seems more egregious when you consider a store like Steam's value add is their distribution platform and store front versus Apple's entire development tooling and SDK ecosystem. Talk about poor value for money.


My suspicion is that regulators world-wide will eventually decide that App Stores, Payment Processing, Binary Hosting etc are natural separate businesses to the business of vending hardware and Operating Systems, and the case will end up looking more like the Microsoft's Internet Explorer trial (where the browser was determined to be a separate application, and not an Operating System component, regardless of how Microsoft engineered it).
If you read into the case you will find that Microsoft hadn't engineered it to be an operating system component and it was easily extractable without problem. This was in fact undermined by their own engineers. However the greater issue that it posed is that it used it's monopoly of the Windows platform to do two things: add in private APIs that favoured Internet Explorer and they threatened OEMs that were going to bundle Netscape that they wouldn't license the Windows operating system to them. That second part of OEM coercion is actually alleged by Epic versus Google.

You'll also note that Microsoft didn't get broken up out of that either, that they successfully appealed and ultimately settled to permit OEMs to bundle non-Microsoft software and that they would share their private APIs. There were no limits to any further tying of software into Windows and we can see that hasn't stopped them doing just that.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Epic case in this regard.

But again, regulating Apple is about what Apple does in isolation, not about anyone else. Billy kicking the puppy is wrong, regardless of whether Jenny is punching the kitten.
Well drafted regulation doesn't generally address a single company but addresses what behaviours are legal and which behaviours result in penalties. Both Billy and Jenny will be punished under the same law, generally a law against animal cruelty. This is where the disconnect on your "but they make a loss" argument falls apart. If Apple has a monopoly over the distribution of apps to iPhones because it acts as gatekeeper and sole authoriser of software that runs on their hardware, the argument can reasonably be made that this behaviour is exactly what the console manufacturers have. It doesn't matter today that the consoles are sold for a loss otherwise Epic would have included it in their complaint. Of course with some of the best politicians that money can buy, one can quickly lead to poorly drafted, partisan regulation that aims to serve private interests rather than consumers as a whole. We've already seen Epic attempt to push legislative agendas that favour them.

EDIT: If the only barrier to the model becomes that Apple needs their device at a loss as derived by what ever a bean counter can concoct then I'm sure they can find a way to attribute costs to the device to get margin down and maybe cut the price as well. If anything that'd potentially damaged the market further because OEM's can't sell their hardware at a loss to run Android. I've got to imagine it'd destroy the market. LG just gave up on their smartphones after reportedly years of losses, imagine if Apple's product line was 30% cheaper?
 
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30% is fair, when the platform owner takes an upfront loss to increase sales of the platform's content (games / apps).

So yes, fair is fair - if Apple sold the iPhone for a ~50% loss, 30% would be "as" fair for them, as it is for Microsoft / Sony

They're still selling the console below cost in order to increase the developer's addressable market.
It's interesting what you consider fair.
Luring in people with low cost and then making money with inflated prices for add ons is OK for you?
I am pretty sure game consoles are not sold "at a loss" or "below cost", at least not in Europe, because antitrust law forbids exactly that: selling something at a loss to gain market share or competitive advantage.
 
Well drafted regulation doesn't generally address a single company but addresses what behaviours are legal and which behaviours result in penalties.
If a behaviour only occurs with a single company (or rather a single market), then that regulation will only end up applying to a single company. If Google only allowed Android users to buy / load apps from Play, they'd be captured by the same regulation (though I'll note that many regulators ARE taking issue with Google's degree of control over the Android app ecosystem, even though it lacks the totality of Apple's). If Sony / Microsoft weren't operating a subsidised hardware business, they'd be captured by the same regulation.

The problem is that people are arguing that multiple business models that aren't the same, should be captured identically by a single regulatory response, primarily as far as I can see, because they're personally outraged at the idea that "their team" is getting penalised by the referees.

This idea that regulators should frame the rules so as to punish everyone, to avoid only Apple being punished, for something only Apple does, is a post-hoc justification to serve a purpose of protecting Apple.
 
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It's interesting what you consider fair.
Luring in people with low cost and then making money with inflated prices for add ons is OK for you?
I am pretty sure game consoles are not sold "at a loss" or "below cost", at least not in Europe, because antitrust law forbids exactly that: selling something at a loss to gain market share or competitive advantage.

I'm not arguing what I consider fair, I'm arguing what regulators are saying is fair. There is a difference.

Companies can generally sell products at a loss, if they're making it up somewhere else as an ongoing business, what they can't do is dump products below cost for the purpose of driving a competitor out of business, then bring prices back up again.

As I've said, the laws for these things contain subtleties.

For games consoles, customers don't HAVE to buy lots of games - console makers take a risk that enough games will be sold per customer, that the price subsidy they offer is going to be offset eventually by game sales, but that is definitely a risk they take onto themselves. Buy a console to play a single game, and never buy another game for it, the console maker probably loses money on you overall.

It's not like a printer where the (arguably too) expensive ink offsets the (arguably too) subsidised printer, but you have to keep buying ink to keep using the printer.
 
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This idea that regulators should frame the rules so as to punish everyone, to avoid only Apple being punished, for something only Apple does, is a post-hoc justification to serve a purpose of protecting Apple.
This all started by things like: “woah, Apple is charging 30%, that’s too much” to which people started drawing parallels to brick and mortar, the yesteryears steep dev fees (which Apple itself crushed with this same AppStore in 2007), and all the other existing platforms. Now the difference seems to be: “ah, but it’s not subsidized, that’s the whole difference”.

Ultimately I’m not a developer with that $1M+ yearly revenue 30% problem... I actually wish I had that issue.
As a customer I really don’t mind not having tons of ways to install software anyways and would rather the devs and Apple work it out so that me as a customer can continue to enjoy things like reliable auto updates, auto offload/redownload of the app to free space when unused and having to give my credit card and verification credentials to no one except my AppleID profile to name a few.
 
If a behaviour only occurs with a single company (or rather a single market), then that regulation will only end up applying to a single company. If Google only allowed Android users to buy / load apps from Play, they'd be captured by the same regulation (though I'll note that many regulators ARE taking issue with Google's degree of control over the Android app ecosystem, even though it lacks the totality of Apple's). If Sony / Microsoft weren't operating a subsidised hardware business, they'd be captured by the same regulation.
Which is why we need to abstract the behaviour that should be regulated and the bounds at which that regulation applies.

- Is the regulation to state that a platform that permits running software developed by third parties is required to permit all applications? (from my read, part of the situation with Russia)
- Is the regulation to state that a hardware platform cannot arbitrarily limit what payment methods software uses? (the Apple Pay restriction)
- Is the regulation to define what a valid fee structure looks like for licensing intellectual property? (the revenue sharing arrangement)

Google is a unique beast in that they give away "Android" but if you want to have the Play Store, Maps, GMail, etc, you need to license their Google Mobile Services. Amazon decided against this path and their own devices' fallbacks for these services had weird edge cases.

That said I'm still not aware of this "subsidised hardware business" you keep mentioning. Loss leading is a common tactic to sell one product at a loss to induce a customer to buy another product but there isn't anything unique about this. In the US if anything it is more suspicious that you are selling a product at a loss which could be cause for investigation. Is there some legal basis for this or is this just what Tim Sweeney said but Epic's lawyers forgot to include in their complaint against Apple?

The problem is that people are arguing that multiple business models that aren't the same, should be captured identically by a single regulatory response, primarily as far as I can see, because they're personally outraged at the idea that "their team" is getting penalised by the referees.
The regulatory response should capture the behaviour that is to be made illegal. If the business model is the behaviour then that business model becomes illegal (e.g. pyramid schemes). The fact that one company sells their hardware for a loss and another company sells their hardware for a profit should only enter if we wish to prohibit one of those behaviours. In the context of Apple, it seems most of the complaints revolve around the App Store limiting access, Apple mandating Apple Pay and that "30%" (or 15%) is not "fair" for what ever definition of "fair" you want to use. None of those seem to relate to if the iPhone is sold as a loss or a profit and all three of these behaviours can be identified in the console market which has vendors who sell their devices for a loss (Sony/Microsoft) and vendors who sell their devices at profit (Nintendo).

As I said in the previous message, if the assertion is that Apple's model is perfectly legitimate and legal if only their hardware was sold for a loss that would result in Apple's prices reducing (or accounting practices to eradicate it's profit) which can only serve to damage the non-Apple smartphone market who wouldn't be able to compete at that point.

This idea that regulators should frame the rules so as to punish everyone, to avoid only Apple being punished, for something only Apple does, is a post-hoc justification to serve a purpose of protecting Apple.
Not at all, I think it could be interesting for legislation that mandated the ability to install other app stores onto devices. Technically you can already do this on both iOS and Android devices though Apple limit the amount of apps you can load. I would further like to see legislation that forces device manufacturers that lock their devices to their own operating systems be mandated to provide sufficient methods to install third party operating systems on them should their owners wish to do so. I'd even be interested in conceding that such ability to install third party operating systems be limited to those devices whose official support has been dropped in an aim to reduce e-waste.

To reiterate, what is the behaviour we wish to mandate and what are the behaviours we wish to prohibit? Then what is the cost and impact of such regulation and does this new legislation impose an excessive burden on members of the existing marketplace or potential new entrants? Then how do we balance the cost trade off?
 
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