Apple Floated as Potential Buyer of Peloton

[brucewayne]

LOL, none of those bikes are remotely comparable to the Peloton bikes. They are exactly what I'd expect in the sub-$1000 price range. Case in point:

The Peloton is a lot closer in quality to a Keiser M3i which is a real gym quality bike and runs around $2300. (We owned one before we replaced it with a Peloton). Peloton is effectively subsidizing the price of their equipment because they know they'll sell a long-term monthly plan along with it.

I'm doubtful you actually know anyone who owns a Peloton let alone 6 different people who have quit using theirs. That's far outside of the norm - as mentioned earlier - Peloton publishes their retention numbers and it's well into the 90+% rate, with the average owner using it more than 15 times per month.

I notice you didn't include the Rogue Echo which is built like a tank

and the BikeErg which is used at crossfit games for a reason

Also in my post I said that the Peloton equipment and service are very good, I'm not knocking it at all. But to say that it is the best or only option (especially for the price) for someone that doesn't want the guided workouts (aka someone that is motivated to do it on their own, or someone that would rather binge a series on Netflix than have a coach telling them to pedal harder) is silly.

Reread my post. I know 6 people that own them only one uses it regularly with the service. Of the 5 that don't use it, 1 has long covid and was specifically told not to by her physician and is working with a personal trainer to make sure she doesn't overdo it. 2 bought Pelotons as a stopgap and went back to the gym when they reopened after covid. 2 bought it (one with both the bike and tread) because it was the trendy thing to do during covid and probably had no intentions or discipline of actually using it long term (like most people who buy home exercise equipment).

The beauty of brag-posts on social media is that you can watch the entire cycle play out for people over the last 2 years. "OMG My Peloton just arrived, I am SO BLESSED" to "These trainers are SO amazing" to "Still Lovin' the Peloton" to "Hey, hows the peloton? Oh I have been SO busy with the kids/work that I haven't been using it, I'm going to start back up next week" to the eventual picture of it buried in the background covered with ****.

(I would also concede that I may know people that have one and use it everyday but don't talk about it.)

That isn't to say I think these people aren't still paying, I would bet many have a payment with Peloton and keep the subscription along with it, for the same reason that I watch a handful of shows a year on Netflix, and none on Disney+ yet still have the subscription autopaid every month. Let us see the retention and usage rates as the equipment gets paid off, covid hysteria dies down and people get back to their normal lives.

 

[flur]

You already know the answer to your question, because the Android-based Bike+ includes GymKit and can be seamlessly connected to the Apple Watch. The non-plus Bike lacks the necessary hardware, but it easily could be added to a v.2 of the Bike.

Just a heads up, both bikes are android-based.

 

[wild flight]

I’m surprised Peloton didn’t fail sooner. Expensive bikes, expensive subscription. You get the same thing with a phone/tablet and any cheap bike/treadmill paired with a subscription to some fitness program, many of which are cheaper than peloton or even free.

Don't get the same thing! You obviously have not experienced a Peloton ride.

 

[zhenya]

I notice you didn't include the Rogue Echo which is built like a tank

and the BikeErg which is used at crossfit games for a reason

Also in my post I said that the Peloton equipment and service are very good, I'm not knocking it at all. But to say that it is the best or only option (especially for the price) for someone that doesn't want the guided workouts (aka someone that is motivated to do it on their own, or someone that would rather binge a series on Netflix than have a coach telling them to pedal harder) is silly.

Reread my post. I know 6 people that own them only one uses it regularly with the service. Of the 5 that don't use it, 1 has long covid and was specifically told not to by her physician and is working with a personal trainer to make sure she doesn't overdo it. 2 bought Pelotons as a stopgap and went back to the gym when they reopened after covid. 2 bought it (one with both the bike and tread) because it was the trendy thing to do during covid and probably had no intentions or discipline of actually using it long term (like most people who buy home exercise equipment).

The beauty of brag-posts on social media is that you can watch the entire cycle play out for people over the last 2 years. "OMG My Peloton just arrived, I am SO BLESSED" to "These trainers are SO amazing" to "Still Lovin' the Peloton" to "Hey, hows the peloton? Oh I have been SO busy with the kids/work that I haven't been using it, I'm going to start back up next week" to the eventual picture of it buried in the background covered with ****.

(I would also concede that I may know people that have one and use it everyday but don't talk about it.)

That isn't to say I think these people aren't still paying, I would bet many have a payment with Peloton and keep the subscription along with it, for the same reason that I watch a handful of shows a year on Netflix, and none on Disney+ yet still have the subscription autopaid every month. Let us see the retention and usage rates as the equipment gets paid off, covid hysteria dies down and people get back to their normal lives.

Any of those models you suggested are entry level bikes in comparison. I really don't care what they use at Crossfit because people who do Crossfit are not generally serious cyclists. Any bike that uses air resistance rather than a flywheel just isn't in the same league. The entire design of all of those bikes is entry level and won't appeal to someone who is more discerning and/or is experienced with high end cycling equipment.

The data says that the vast majority of Peloton owners don't just continue to pay for the subscriptions, but that they continue to use them heavily - again - to the tune of an average of over 15 uses per month.

 

[Flight Plan]

So as an investor (though not as an investor of PTON), I'm always looking for something I can learn when the "greats" fall from grace. I'm looking at a chart of January, 2021. Somebody paid $171.09 for this stock on January 14th, the highest price it traded at. Or several somebodies did. 7.5 million shares worth.

As of Friday, the stock rests at $27 and change, but has traded as low as $24.something something. Almost 84% off the 52 week high. If you had invested $10,000 in, well, anything...and lost 84%, you'd have $1600 left at the end. Still enough to buy an iPad and an iPhone, but only if you didn't want the highest tier Apple products.

Of course, to get to $27, the stock had to fall below $170. And below $150. And below $100. And all of this took a long time to happen, so it wasn't like it fell off a cliff. 1% is held by management and 51% of it is STILL held by funds, over 1,000 funds, by the way!

Things that make me go "hmmmm"...I may need to review my funds to see if I should fire any of them...lol!

 

[bluespark]

Just a heads up, both bikes are android-based.

That was precisely my point. Android is not what is preventing the non-Plus bike from interfacing with GymKit.

 

[AgentOSX]

It makes Zero sense for Apple to buy Peloton with billions of debt and a meh product that would have to be retrofitted to work with Fitness. They can buy Nautilus for $200 mil and a few million of debt right now and have more varied products to fit more varied Fitness programs and better patents.

 

[AgentOSX]

If anyone from AAPL by chance is reading this and there’s the remotest chance they want a truly unique and superior indoor bike hardware company that would integrate with Fitness in weeks…ping me.

Just had to say that. I don’t pretend they are interested. Resume nonselfish discussion now…

 

[Jambalaya]

Apple sells premium products and is spectacularly profitable with a huge cash reserve

Peleton sells premium products and is struggling to make money and is highly debt laden.

Peleton is an example of a company trying to make itself appear like an innovative tech company - thus attract sky high stock market valuation - when the reality it is nothing of the sort. The safety issues were/are a death knell for it

 

[jeffe]

Apple don’t buy what they can recreate.

they have before. Sometimes it makes sense if they either want the user base, if they want to get to market quicker or want domain knowledge without having to do the research themselves.

 

[elvislives]

way overpriced = FAIL

 

[toph2toast]

Well I’m going out on a limb and say poster is not joking just stating their opinion. Nothing wrong with that nor you stating your opinion about their post

Thanks for the insight mom.

 

[toph2toast]

Peloton has 5.9 million users in 4 countries. Apple’s Fitness+ is available in 21 countries. I would be shocked if there were not more regular Fitness+ users than Peloton users.

I have Fitness+ and am very impressed by it, and have done two or more workouts every day for over a year. Not sure when you tried it, nor when you looked at it last, but the production quality is substantially better than any of the Peloton Digital videos. Fitness+’s integration with HealthKit and my Apple Watch are great, showing my rings is really motivating for me (clearly not something that matters to everyone). I really like the three trainer model that Fitness+ uses. It means that I can easily switch to the version of a particular exercise that is appropriate for me (it has been very valuable over the last few months as I have been recovering from a back injury). So far I have tried all the workout types except the newly added Pilates and the three than need special equipment (Cycling, Rowing and Treadmill).

I have done several of the Time to Walk outdoor walks (my favorite so far is Dolly Parton’s). My BF and I have done shared HIIT and Core workouts and really like it. As for adding content more quickly, outside of their recordings of their live cycling and tread classes that get added as they happen, I am not sure if they are adding content at a much greater pace. Peloton certainly has more (they have a 3 year head start) videos, but fewer workout types.

I started using Daily Yoga before Fitness+ started, and I still like it, but will often do an additional yoga workout on Fitness+, they are different enough to make it is so I like both. In contrast, I had a one month trial of Peloton Digital and used it every day (along with my Fitness+ workouts) for the month (usually at least two workouts for each service a day), and I did not like it as much (so I did not keep it).

In what way do you find Fitness+ inferior? The production quality for Fitness+ is much higher (having all be produced in 4K and streamed at a higher bitrate). Fitness+ is much more integrated with the ecosystem (particularly Apple Watch integration). They have more actual distinct workout types that are more clearly defined, having added outdoor walks and runs, as well as Pilates and Meditations in the year since the platform launched. I do not own an exercise bike, a rower or a treadmill, so I cannot compare their bike or treadmill workouts, but for those I did compare, I preferred the instructors on Fitness+ - they seem friendlier and more excited to be there. People will have their own opinions, but your blanket dismissal without any explanation makes it hard to evaluate your comment.

Certainly true that not every product Apple has released has been a success, however in this case, it seems to be going well for them. Apple continues to invest in Fitness+ (adding workout types, improving sorting and filtering, adding sharing, etc.), and has done a lot over the the first year, especially given that it launched during the pandemic.

I'm glad you've found something that worked for you, fitness+ doesn't do it for me. I've done exercises through the peloton app over 20+ days this month (would have been more, darn Covid). Something to keep in mind too when it comes do "production quality" is that Peloton built their cycle studios to have people in them, taking a class with the instructor. That was never part of Apple's plan, to my knowledge, so there inherently is going to be a different setup/quality/etc. Also, when it comes to working out, I really don't care about the "production quality" as long as the workout kicks my butt and the instructors/music keep me motivated. I still have the OG P90X workout DVDs... yes DVDs... that I'll pop in and workout to a couple times a month.

When it comes to the app, fitness+ is almost as bad as navigating Apple music. To me, its a cluster, I can't even search for a music artist who's music I want to listen to during a workout. There is basic filtering options that are unavailable or difficult to find that makes it inferior to the peloton experience (in my opinion). I'm not aware of a way to quickly/easily see how you performed in a past fitness+ class to compare improvements. Thats a big thing for me, I want to keep pushing myself to set to personal records on the bike, and I can do that by pressing 2 buttons. Not sure how to do that with fitness+...

At the end of the day, I really don't care what it takes for people to get into fitness. Find what you like and have fun. I simply wasn't going to stand by and have mis-informed or naive people bash peloton for no reason at all. The fact that people care why others choose to use the peloton products/services over others is beyond me.

 

[webkit]

way overpriced = FAIL

It's not that simple. Peloton's biggest issue was mismanaging its growth during the pandemic however, many companies that "benefited" from the pandemic have seen their stock price significantly decline. Zoom is down around 74% from its pandemic high, DocuSign is down around 63%, DoorDash is down around 53%, Netflix is down around 43%. Yes, Peloton is down around 84% but that puts it back about where it was at the end of 2019.

 

[suns93]

Apple doesn’t buy a company for its subscriber base. Cheaper to just buy the individual parts you need (eg: hire talent away from Peloton, which should be easier now if news of it doing poorly is true), build up a competing service and compete for those same users.

It makes more sense to simply let users recreate the same experience with Apple fitness, the Apple Watch and an iPad mounted on a third party exercise bike. Than roll out a line of exercise equipment which has little synergy with their core competency.

Exactly. The purchase price of Peloton would be over $10B. If all Apple is interested in is some of the talent and subscribers - you can poach talent and buy subscribers at a waaaaay cheaper price.

IP/Patents owned by a company are the holy grail of leverage for a company wanting to get bought out by Apple. If they don’t find the IP Peloton has compelling, everything else is moot. I’m not saying Apple sees the other factors as worthless - it’s just inevitable that another buyer values them substantially more than Apple.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Don't get the same thing! You obviously have not experienced a Peloton ride.

For the purposes of this discussion, I will accept your premise that thanks to the integration Peloton rides are unmatched. They have 2.7 million paid subscribers for their full service and under a million for Peloton Digital. At $8-9 Billion (or maybe more), it does not seem like a good deal. Especially, as they would be saddled with supporting an Android-based product that would would never be what they built themselves. They would be buying the customers (some value, although many of those on Android would likely leave once Apple made it iOS/iPadOS/macOS/tvOS centric), a mechanical bike and treadmill design (even if they are better than average, they are not amazing), their services - all of which would have to be moved to Apple's streaming platforms and would need to be integrated with Fitness+ (likely a complete rewrite), some stores (doubtful that Apple would maintain them), and some contracts with some trainers (that may or may not transfer).

I just do not see how the cost is justified by what it would cover.

 

[Darkwalker]

I wonder what Apple's angle would be. I put an iPad mount on my $99 exercise bike to use on snowy mornings. Peloton, shmeloton.

Gyms

 

[Alan Wynn]

I'm glad you've found something that worked for you, fitness+ doesn't do it for me.

Let me be more explicit, when did you try Fitness+, how long did you use it, and when did you start using Peloton Digital?

I've done exercises through the peloton app over 20+ days this month (would have been more, darn Covid).

Something to keep in mind too when it comes do "production quality" is that Peloton built their cycle studios to have people in them, taking a class with the instructor.

Pelton Digital does not (nor as far as I can tell ever did) have other students in their non-bike/treadmill classes, however, I am not sure what the presence or absence of students in the studio has to do with the production quality.

That was never part of Apple's plan, to my knowledge, so there inherently is going to be a different setup/quality/etc.

I am still not clear why having other people in the space means that you should shoot at lower resolution, stream at lower bit rates, have lower quality audio. There is definitely a difference between how one would set up the bike, rowing and treadmill spaces if one has an instructor facing students, but that has no impact on any of the other workout types (where Peloton Digital has a single instructor and no one else in the room).

Also, when it comes to working out, I really don't care about the "production quality" as long as the workout kicks my butt and the instructors/music keep me motivated. I still have the OG P90X workout DVDs... yes DVDs... that I'll pop in and workout to a couple times a month.

They may not matter to you, but unless you are arguing that you prefer the lower quality, it is a point in Fitness+'s favor.

When it comes to the app, fitness+ is almost as bad as navigating Apple music. To me, its a cluster, I can't even search for a music artist who's music I want to listen to during a workout. There are basic filtering that is unavailable or difficult to find that makes it inferior to the peloton experience.

Here is the filter screen for Fitness+ Strength Workouts:

One can filter by music type but not yet by artist (given that the service is just over a year old, and most workouts do not have a single artist, I am not sure how valuable that would be). However, there are workouts with music by a single artist and those can be listed:

I'm not aware of a way to quickly/easily see how you performed in a past fitness+ class to compare improvements. Thats a big thing for me, I want to keep pushing myself to set to personal records on the bike, and I can do that by pressing 2 buttons. Not sure how to do that with fitness+...

That is not yet an option in the Fitness+ app, but can easily be done by a third party app (given that HealthKit has an open API and great developer support). There are quite a few apps out that to analyze HeathKit and workout data (while maintaining my privacy). It is also nice to be able to see all the workouts I do in one place (not just those from Fitness+), something that the open API and well developed ecosystem make possible.

Despite problems with Covid-19, Apple has added quite a lot of features in the year that the product has been on the market. I really love the Share Play shared workouts, and the new Meditation section. There are still features I expect to see added and would like to have (cooperative challenges where my friends and I all agree to hit goals and support each other, is one example).

At the end of the day, I really don't care what it takes for people to get into fitness. Find what you like and have fun. I simply wasn't going to stand by and have mis-informed or naive people bash peloton for no reason at all. Why people care why others choose to use the peloton products/services over others is beyond me.

Funny comment given how you characterize Fitness+. As I have said, I do not own an exercise bike, a rowing machine or a treadmill, so my comparison is primarily Fitness+ to Peloton Digital, and in my experience, Fitness+ is better. Your use case may be different.

 

[toph2toast]

Let me be more explicit, when did you try Fitness+, how long did you use it, and when did you start using Peloton Digital?



Pelton Digital does not (nor as far as I can tell ever did) have other students in their non-bike/treadmill classes, however, I am not sure what the presence or absence of students in the studio has to do with the production quality.

I am still not clear why having other people in the space means that you should shoot at lower resolution, stream at lower bit rates, have lower quality audio. There is definitely a difference between how one would set up the bike, rowing and treadmill spaces if one has an instructor facing students, but that has no impact on any of the other workout types (where Peloton Digital has a single instructor and no one else in the room).

They may not matter to you, but unless you are arguing that you prefer the lower quality, it is a point in Fitness+'s favor.


Here is the filter screen for Fitness+ Strength Workouts:

View attachment 1948794

One can filter by music type but not yet by artist (given that the service is just over a year old, and most workouts do not have a single artist, I am not sure how valuable that would be). However, there are workouts with music by a single artist and those can be listed:

View attachment 1948797


That is not yet an option in the Fitness+ app, but can easily be done by a third party app (given that HealthKit has an open API and great developer support). There are quite a few apps out that to analyze HeathKit and workout data (while maintaining my privacy). It is also nice to be able to see all the workouts I do in one place (not just those from Fitness+), something that the open API and well developed ecosystem make possible.

Despite problems with Covid-19, Apple has added quite a lot of features in the year that the product has been on the market. I really love the Share Play shared workouts, and the new Meditation section. There are still features I expect to see added and would like to have (cooperative challenges where my friends and I all agree to hit goals and support each other, is one example).


Funny comment given how you characterize Fitness+. As I have said, I do not own an exercise bike, a rowing machine or a treadmill, so my comparison is primarily Fitness+ to Peloton Digital, and in my experience, Fitness+ is better. Your use case may be different.

Yep, I've done 2 fitness+ workouts, most recent one was a couple months ago. One was a HIIT workout, the other was a core workout. The HIIT workout was Ok, the core workout didn't do it for me at all.

As far as production quality goes, I consider the stage, lighting, background, etc. to be wrapped up into that. Peloton started out by trying to capture the energy of live spinning class. The way their rooms were setup echoed that. That was never the vision of fitness plus, since its a staged gym. If you are rolling resolution, bitrate, audio quality into the mix, thats cool. Just because a workout is in 4k doesn't make me want to use it and more or less... if the content isn't appealing to me, it could be in 4k VR with the best speakers in the world, I still wouldn't like it.

When it comes to music, that's a big part of my workout. If i want a ride that has a foo fighters song, I can search for them, and any workout (or filter it to just a spin ride) with a foo fighters song in it shows up. Thats a big plus the fitness+ doesn't offer. You have to dig way down just to see a playlist.

As far as using other apps to analyze your workouts, that seems pretty inefficient... I don't want to go to another app to give me data that should natively be in the app I'm using. I use FitBod for my weight lifting exercises and that shows me my past data as well...

So from the looks of our discussion, the only positive of fitness+ is its production quality, and every other point I made about peloton being a better product has been chalked up to fitness+ being a year old... cool. Clearly you enjoy fitness+, have fun with it. Unlike 99% of the people on here bashing peloton, I've used both peloton and fitness+. I gave it a shot and it's not for me. Enjoy!

 

[ackmondual]

Peloton feels like the Apple of the exercise equipment industry. Difference is that Apple managed to better market their stuff, bank up a lot of $$, and get a sizeable cult-like status. The fact that smartphones are the "go to" product in past decades went a long way as well. When we're in a recession, or people are otherwise feeling the financial squeeze, they'll quit their gym memberships before giving up their phones. And gym memberships are far cheaper than Peloton. You can always get a lower end phone for something quite affordable. You need to pay for cell service, but phones have doubled up as business devices.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Yep, I've done 2 fitness+ workouts, most recent one was a couple months ago. One was a HIIT workout, the other was a core workout. The HIIT workout was Ok, the core workout didn't do it for me at all.

So you complain about people without enough experience criticizing Peloton, but you feel completely able to judge all of Fitness+ with a single workout from two of the 11 categories, months ago. Got it.

As far as production quality goes, I consider the stage, lighting, background, etc. to be wrapped up into that.

Yup, all of those things, as well as the quality of the cameras, sound, etc.

Peloton started out by trying to capture the energy of live spinning class. The way their rooms were setup echoed that.

You keep responding to only one aspect of their product and not the one that is most comparable to Fitness+. Peloton Digital does not have, nor has it ever had, a live class. It is just the instructor on a bad stage. In addition, nothing about capturing a live spin class requires having bad lighting, mediocre sound and low resolution.

That was never the vision of fitness plus, since its a staged gym. If you are rolling resolution, bitrate, audio quality into the mix, thats cool. Just because a workout is in 4k doesn't make me want to use it and more or less... if the content isn't appealing to me, it could be in 4k VR with the best speakers in the world, I still wouldn't like it.

Given that I have to watch it and listen to it, the quality matters to me, not replacing the other aspects of the quality of the material (like the quality of the instructors), but if the instructor is great and I cannot not hear or see him clearly, it does not work for me.

When it comes to music, that's a big part of my workout. If i want a ride that has a foo fighters song, I can search for them, and any workout (or filter it to just a spin ride) with a foo fighters song in it shows up. Thats a big plus the fitness+ doesn't offer. You have to dig way down just to see a playlist.

I am not sure what you mean by "dig way down" to see a playlist (there is the playlist on the screen defining the workout, with the additional feature that I can easily add any song to my Apple Music library with a click). As for searching for a particular artist or song, given that the service is newer (just over a year, vs. 3 years for Peloton Digital and 8 for Peloton's Bike program) there is not yet enough content to have that be meaningful.

As far as using other apps to analyze your workouts, that seems pretty inefficient... I don't want to go to another app to give me data that should natively be in the app I'm using. I use FitBod for my weight lifting exercises and that shows me my past data as well...

There are certainly advantages in having the data in the app, but there are also advantages to seeing metrics among all the workouts one does. I like that I can look at my Daily Yoga, Streaks Workout, RunKeeper, and Fitness+ workouts all in one place. I love data, and I love seeing my rings status on the screen, as I workout.

So from the looks of our discussion, the only positive of fitness+ is its production quality, and every other point I made about peloton being a better product has been chalked up to fitness+ being a year old...

Sorry, not at all. I said I liked the instructors better for the categories I have used that the both support, Strength, Core (Peloton's Stretching mixies this with some of the stretching from Fitness+'s Mindful Cool down, but not really as good as either), Yoga, HIIT (Peloton calls this Cardio) and Meditation. I also prefer the three instructor model to Peloton's single instructor classes, as it makes it very easy to adjust the difficulty for a single move within a workout.

Fitness+ has more workout types (including: Dance, Mindful Cooldown and Pilates and Rowing), and are a part of an open ecosystem, allowing me to use other apps for various functions putting all the data in one place. I understand that there is some of that with Bike+ and Tread+, but not for the bulk of their Bike or Tread customers (currently, 75% of their Bike customers pick their less expensive product without the HealthKit integration).

Privacy by design, Apple's customer data privacy focus means does not have access to your Fitness+ data at all. Peloton has already had one serious data breech exposing customer data.

So to put all the ways that I think Fitness+ is better than Peloton:

• Better production quality and delivery.
• Offline use.
• Three instructor model
• Open API ecosystem
• More workout types
• Friendlier and more supportive instructors (purely subjective).
• Ability to move music from a workout into my library.
• Price (not counting AppleOne bundles, Fitness+ is $9.99 for up to six users on a Family plan vs. $12.99 for a single user and $39.99 for a family plan - ignoring annual subs and other discounts).

cool. Clearly you enjoy fitness+, have fun with it. Unlike 99% of the people on here bashing peloton, I've used both peloton and fitness+. I gave it a shot and it's not for me. Enjoy!

Yup, I gave Peloton Digital a real try (over 60 workouts split over four categories), and think it is just not that great. I do not have either an exercise bike or treadmill, so I cannot really compare those as well.

 

[addictive]

I doubt Apple will acquire Peloton but if the company has another couple of poor quarters which seems likely and their share price halves again then perhaps Apple will consider it. As others have said Apple can basically continue to build it's own Peloton with Apple Fitness + (without the hardware).

My two thoughts about why Apple would be interested in acquiring Peloton at some point is that Peloton has not expanded internationally much at all. A few big markets in Europe and the North America. There is so much growth if you move into Asia and the rest of Europe at the very least.

The other reason would be to boost monthly service fees. People like routines and having a service that works. See how many people pay for Apple Music. If you remove a key competitor from the market by acquiring them you become even more dominant. Thats very much an Apple play.

 

[toph2toast]

So you complain about people without enough experience criticizing Peloton, but you feel completely able to judge all of Fitness+ with a single workout from two of the 11 categories, months ago. Got it.

Yup, all of those things, as well as the quality of the cameras, sound, etc.

You keep responding to only one aspect of their product and not the one that is most comparable to Fitness+. Peloton Digital does not have, nor has it ever had, a live class. It is just the instructor on a bad stage. In addition, nothing about capturing a live spin class requires having bad lighting, mediocre sound and low resolution.

Given that I have to watch it and listen to it, the quality matters to me, not replacing the other aspects of the quality of the material (like the quality of the instructors), but if the instructor is great and I cannot not hear or see him clearly, it does not work for me.

View attachment 1948974
I am not sure what you mean by "dig way down" to see a playlist (there is the playlist on the screen defining the workout, with the additional feature that I can easily add any song to my Apple Music library with a click). As for searching for a particular artist or song, given that the service is newer (just over a year, vs. 3 years for Peloton Digital and 8 for Peloton's Bike program) there is not yet enough content to have that be meaningful.

There are certainly advantages in having the data in the app, but there are also advantages to seeing metrics among all the workouts one does. I like that I can look at my Daily Yoga, Streaks Workout, RunKeeper, and Fitness+ workouts all in one place. I love data, and I love seeing my rings status on the screen, as I workout.

Sorry, not at all. I said I liked the instructors better for the categories I have used that the both support, Strength, Core (Peloton's Stretching mixies this with some of the stretching from Fitness+'s Mindful Cool down, but not really as good as either), Yoga, HIIT (Peloton calls this Cardio) and Meditation. I also prefer the three instructor model to Peloton's single instructor classes, as it makes it very easy to adjust the difficulty for a single move within a workout.

Fitness+ has more workout types (including: Dance, Mindful Cooldown and Pilates and Rowing), and are a part of an open ecosystem, allowing me to use other apps for various functions putting all the data in one place. I understand that there is some of that with Bike+ and Tread+, but not for the bulk of their Bike or Tread customers (currently, 75% of their Bike customers pick their less expensive product without the HealthKit integration).

Privacy by design, Apple's customer data privacy focus means does not have access to your Fitness+ data at all. Peloton has already had one serious data breech exposing customer data.

So to put all the ways that I think Fitness+ is better than Peloton:

• Better production quality and delivery.
• Offline use.
• Three instructor model
• Open API ecosystem
• More workout types
• Friendlier and more supportive instructors (purely subjective).
• Ability to move music from a workout into my library.
• Price (not counting AppleOne bundles, Fitness+ is $9.99 for up to six users on a Family plan vs. $12.99 for a single user and $39.99 for a family plan - ignoring annual subs and other discounts).

Yup, I gave Peloton Digital a real try (over 60 workouts split over four categories), and think it is just not that great. I do not have either an exercise bike or treadmill, so I cannot really compare those as well.

This is likely going to me my last reply because you're not going to change my mind, and it doesn't look like I'll be changing yours, but let me address your points since you took the time.

1) I complained about people who NEVER used the Peloton app/used a Peloton product and simply bashed them based their stock price/commericals/user base/retail stores/etc. I never claimed to be a fitness+ expert, but I've at least used the platform and, in my opinion, clearly yours is different, it's inferior to fitness+. Also yes, I "only" did 2 workouts on the platform, but it took me 1 workout to get hooked on Peloton, and P90X. It took me using a Mac once to get hooked on the OS, and only once using an iPhone to buy into the platform. I test drove my car once before buying it, etc etc. I don't try products multiple times hoping i'll like it more the next time. I didn't care for fitness+ the first time I used it, but gave it another shot and still didn't like it. I can quickly and easily find the exact class I want using the Peloton app (see comments below) and overall enjoy using it more. If you used Peloton digital for 60 workouts and didn't like it the entire time, I'm honestly curious to know why.

2) I'm not sure when you started using peloton digital, but pre-covid, there were actually people in their NY studio who would take spin classes with the instructors. I thought the tread classes were the same, but I can't run anymore due to back issues so I've never done those classes. As far as production, if you are implying that Peloton has bad lighting, mediocre sound and low resolution, I have multiple friends that use the platform and both my wife and I use our Peloton bike regularly, and I've never heard a single complaint about not being able to hear or see the instructor. You can even adjust the audio mix on the bike (not sure about the app) to favor the instructor more or music more.

3) When I used the fitness+ app, even just yesterday, my opinion was that it takes much longer vs. using the peloton app to dig down to the class/playlist I want. This may be a familiarity thing, so it's a mute point.

4) I like data as well, but I don't think you get my point. When I do a spin ride, I can see on my screen how I'm performing vs. my best 5/10/15/20/30/45/60 ride if I want to set a PR. If I've taken that class before, I can also see how I compare to my last performance. I can also see how I stack up against my friends who have taken the same ride in the past. After the class I can see graphs on the app showing my output/cadence, resistance and speed over the duration of the class. If I used my bike for a fitness+ class, none of that info is available (maybe on the newer bikes, mine in 3+ years old). The high level metrics do get plugged into the fitness app on my phone, via the health app I think, but nothing as detailed as what the bike provides.

5) When it comes to fitness+ having more workout types, I have to disagree. Let's take a look

Fitness+ has the following: Meditation, HIIT, Yoga, Core, Strength, Pilates, Dance, Cycling, Treadmill, Rowing, Mindful Cooldown. We can also add it "Time to Run" and "Time to walk" since the target for those seems to be outdoor exercise.

Peloton also has Meditation, HIIT workouts in their Cardio and Cycling classes, Yoga, Core is offered under their strength workouts, Strength, Pilates is under their strength workouts, Dance workouts are under their Cardio classes, Cycling, Treadmill, no rowing - so score one for Fitness+, and it looks like Mindful Cooldown is stretching, which Peloton offers. They also offer outdoor running and walking classes.

Here are some class types I found that Peloton offers that I don't believe fitness+ does: Tread Bootcamp, Bike Bootcamp, Boxing and Barre (part of their strength class offerings). I'm probably missing some because of their filtering options.

Also, one thing to mention too is the additional "class type" filtering options that I don't believe fitness+ has. Lets stay with cycling since I know that best. There are 12 different class types for their cycling options: Warm-up/Cool down, Beginner, Low Impact, Power Zone, Climb, Live DJ, Intervals, Heart Rate Zone, Theme, Music, Groove, Pro Cyclist. Some of these options I'm not too keen on, but on days that I lift weights, I'll hop on the bike afterwards and want a ride that's pretty much flat roads the whole time. So I sort by cycling, then low impact and boom, there are my options. This level of filtering isn't available of fitness+. Nor is there an option to filter classes by difficulty rating based on input from those that took the class. So if a class looks like it has a great playlist, but those who took the class determined that its very difficult, I might pass on it that day.

6) I proved that there are more workout types, and you can download classes on the app, so that eliminates 2 of your "pros".

- Peloton also offers programs that are a series of classes to help train for a marathon, build power on the bike, work on your core, etc. I did a quick count and there are 21 program offerings. I think Fitness+ calls these collections, and they have 5 options...
- Peloton offers collections as well, which groups together offering that are holiday themed, based on various artists, moods, etc. There are so a ton of options I didn't bother counting. Definitely more than the program offerings listed above.
- Peloton also has monthly challenges for working out X number of days, cycling X number of miles, etc etc. Apple typically has 1 challenge a month through the fitness app on the watch.
- Small perk, but after 100 rides, they send you a free shirt.
- You can also stack classes ahead of time so the app will automatically go from a warm up ride to a cardio workout to stretching without having to find the next class you want to do when once is over.
- Instructors give shoutouts to members who reach milestones during the class (at least on the cycling classes) vs. it always just being a recording with 0 interaction between the instructor and class.

Given all of the above, i'd say the price is worth it. I also honestly doubt many people are paying for fitness+ as a standalone service. Its wrapped into my AppleOne membership which is the reason why I tried it anyways.

 

[Alan Wynn]

This is likely going to me my last reply because you're not going to change my mind

I am not trying to change your mind, just trying to clarify things you said and making sure others who have yet to decide can see another perspective.

1) I complained about people who NEVER used the Peloton app/used a Peloton product and simply bashed them based their stock price/commericals/user base/retail stores/etc I never claimed to be a fitness+ expert, but I've at least used the platform and, in my opinion, clearly yours is different, it's inferior to fitness+.

You do not claim to be an expert, but your comments did not make clear how little experience you had with the product. You say it is confusing to use and that "it is a mess", however, the only example you give is not being able to search for a workout with a song by an artist. I posted the filtering screen and it seems pretty straightforward.

Also yes, I "only" did 2 workouts on the platform, but it took me 1 workout to get hooked on Peloton, and P90X. It took me using a Mac once to get hooked on the OS, and only once using an iPhone to buy into the platform. I test drove my car once before buying it, etc etc. I don't try products multiple times hoping i'll like it more the next time. I didn't care for fitness+ the first time I used it, but gave it another shot and still didn't like it.

Got it, you are impulsive, and after trying two different instructors each doing one workout type, you knew everything you needed to know about the service.

I can quickly and easily find the exact class I want using the Peloton app (see comments below) and overall enjoy using it more. If you used Peloton digital for 60 workouts and didn't like it the entire time, I'm honestly curious to know why.

Other than searching for artists, I am not sure how much easier it can be:

1. Pick a workout type.
2. Filter by instructor, music type, body focus and length, all on one screen (I posted an example screen for others to see).

I tried many workouts types with many different instructors, because I would not expect I would like every instructor's style, nor every workout type, and I wanted to judge it as broadly as I could. They have quite a few different instructors with very different styles, but while I found some I liked more than others, I did not like them as much as those with whom I workout with Fitness+. Given that I had a month long trial, it seemed like a logical way of doing things.

It seems odd to evaluate a service with more than 10 workout types and more than twenty different instructors, by looking at two workout types with one instructor each.

2) I'm not sure when you started using peloton digital, but pre-covid, there were actually people in their NY studio who would take spin classes with the instructors.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not have an exercise bike, a rower or a treadmill, and while I have ridden a friend's Peloton Bike a few times, I do not have enough experience to judge it. The comparison I keep making is to all the other workout types for Fitness+ and Peloton Digital (the app, not their Bike product).

As far as production, if you are implying that Peloton has bad lighting, mediocre sound and low resolution, I have multiple friends that use the platform and both my wife and I use our Peloton bike regularly, and I've never heard a single complaint about not being able to hear or see the instructor.

Again, I do not have enough experience with the Bike to judge it, I am talking about all the other workout types. Many of those I tried had mediocre lighting and bad audio. None were unusable, but many were low enough quality to be distracting to me. Clearly that does not matter to you (given that you still use DVDs), but it is an issue for me (and my guess is, many others).

You can even adjust the audio mix on the bike (not sure about the app) to favor the instructor more or music more.

As I have said, I am not comparing the Bike to Fitness+, I am comparing the two apps.

3) When I used the fitness+ app, even just yesterday, my opinion was that it takes much longer vs. using the peloton app to dig down to the class/playlist I want. This may be a familiarity thing, so it's a mute point.

It is two screens: workout type, then filtering. Once one has picked a class the playlist is prominently displayed and it is very easy to add it to one's library. It is also easy to send the music and instructions to one's AirPods, HomePods or Airplay enabled stereo system.

4) I like data as well, but I don't think you get my point. When I do a spin ride, I can see on my screen how I'm performing vs. my best 5/10/15/20/30/45/60 ride if I want to set a PR. If I've taken that class before, I can also see how I compare to my last performance. I can also see how I stack up against my friends who have taken the same ride in the past. After the class I can see graphs on the app showing my output/cadence, resistance and speed over the duration of the class. If I used my bike for a fitness+ class, none of that info is available (maybe on the newer bikes, mine in 3+ years old). The high level metrics do get plugged into the fitness app on my phone, via the health app I think, but nothing as detailed as what the bike provides.

I understood your point, but you seem not to understand mine. I am not training for a ride, I am working out. If I wanted to train, I would use Zwift and/or Training Peaks and a real trainer (like the Kickr Bike or the one of the other Wahoo trainers attached to a climb. I understand the benefits of the comparison in the app and think that would be a nice feature to see Apple add to Fitness+ in the future. What I do not get with the Peloton Bike, is integration into an open ecosystem. You listed two different ecosystems you use to workout: Peloton and FitBod. When you are evaluating your overall fitness and trying to see where you stand, you need to go to two different places. Peloton controls your data, only letting you share it with services they choose. Apple's ecosystem is open and lets me share my data with whatever services and apps I want. I can evaluate

5) When it comes to fitness+ having more workout types, I have to disagree.

You complained about how hard it is to find classes in Fitness+ and then explain that Peloton has many more types of classes, just without any easy way to know what they are. It does seem they have more options, although during my month of use, I could not find half of what you listed, so I did not even know they were there.

6) I proved that there are more workout types, and you can download classes on the app, so that eliminates 2 of your "pros".

According to every source I can find, some users can pre-load classes to improve performance in places with bad internet access, but one still needs a connection to use the workouts.

Peloton has quietly rolled out a new feature to some users of the Peloton Digital iOS app, which will allow you to pre-download classes for better performance.

While the most obvious use case of this would be for offline use, so you could do your workout without internet, a informational message states that the while class will be downloaded for better performance, you must still have an internet connection to start a class or workout.

That might not matter to you, since you seem to primarily use their bike, but it is a big deal to me as I travel a lot, often to places where I cannot rely on a solid connection.

Given all of the above, i'd say the price is worth it. I also honestly doubt many people are paying for fitness+ as a standalone service. Its wrapped into my AppleOne membership which is the reason why I tried it anyways.

Peloton has under a million users for its Digital service (it was ~874,000 last I can tell). I would be shocked if Apple did not have over 5 million regular users for Fitness+ (well under 5% of their installed base of watch customers) and 10 million users would not surprise me (given that they offer the service in more than 20 countries).

Returning to the original point of this thread, it seems adding 2.7 million Bike and Treadmill owners and under a million Digital only customers would not make any sense for Apple.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I don’t think that it’s good that Apple is messing with this industry. Their products are extremely overpriced, and I am afraid that they are going to make this stuff even more expensive than it is.

But Apple does have somewhat of a history of making products of entities they buy/merge less expensive. It could be a good thing. I doubt it would happen, but it could. (And monkeys might, well, you know...)