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we're talking about a format that contains ALL of the sonic information of studio tape. not just 16bit/44,100Hz WAV. contrary to popular believe The "CD format" still is a highly lossy format. that's not what Young compares MP3s to. he's talking about what comes from the master tape of a studio mixdown.

Neil Young wants a format that pretty much sounds like 24bit/96kHz but small enough for portable devices and digital online retailers.

there is a group of people on the web that specializes on 24bit/96kHz vinyl rips. these are proven to sound pretty much (some might say "almost") as good as pure vinyl when played through decent enough converters. the files are huge though.

on a pure scientific level these 24bit/96kHz provide enough depth and space on a timeline to host audio data that can come from a vinyl disc without sonic AND beyond sonic loss. (Source: Professional Audio Magazine Germany)

Do some reading on Nyquists theorem. PCM digital is NOT lossy. CD's have the potential to be every bit as good as the studio master. Studios use high sampling rates to ensure the best result when signals are edited/processed digitally. Playback does not require this.

44.1/16 PCM is more than enough to handle the dynamic range and frequency response of any recorded music, and way better than vinyl could hope to be. Ever listened to a really good CD player?

ALAC or FLAC meets and exceeds Mr Young's requirements.
 
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Which, sadly Apple refuses to support.

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Do people actually use the crappy headphones Apple ship? Mine always end up staying in the box...cant stand them.

I'd rather they didn't ship any at all and had a better selection of 3rd party headphones in store.

Apple has a lossless format, just like FLAC. Yes, it would be nice if they also supported FLAC, but it's disingenuous to suggest that Apple doesn't have a lossless format.
 
Another problem that was invented and isn't actually there. Yeah, it's right, mp3 just uses 5 % of the full available acoustic data. BUT how much percent of the data that is fully available is the human ear capable to hear? Because that's what the mp3 compression is doing: It eliminates the data we can't hear anyway.

The reason why some people are able to hear a difference in quality between LP and digital recordings is more focused on the way how it is transformed into acoustic waves. The information on the LP is directly transformed, while the digital information first needs to be decoded. This often leads to phase distortions and here is the biggest problem.

On the other hand: There is really a small community having the right equipment to really hear a difference between high quality audio and the standard 256k mp3. No one will hear a difference using the standard Apple Earplugs...
 
Neil Young didn't say 256kbps is 5%. Although a CD isn't truly Lossless for some Ultra-High Fidelity Music...we can safely assume for our purposes that "Red Book" CD is being referred to as the Standard for Lossless.

= 1,411,200 bit/s = 1411.2kbps

1411.2kbps x 5% = Around 70kbps (which admittedly is a low-quality mp3)

Even a 256kbps file has less than 20% of the data (through compression) that a Lossless file would have.

Just going to point out studio recordings are done at 20 bit not 16 bit. When they sell it to us it is reduced to 16 bit. This includes cds.
so
2 channels × 44,100 samples per second per channel × 20 bits per sample
= 1,764,000 bit/s = 1764 kbps
So 256kbps = 6.89% Given that most of people's collections are at 160kbps or less yeah 5% is a pretty much dead on.


You numbers seem great until you releases studio recordings start out at 20 bits.
 
this is the full feature set of ALAC: http://alac.macosforge.org/trac/browser/trunk/ReadMe.txt
I don't know what the full feature set of FLAC is but the point is moot as you can convert between them with zero loss so if ALAC isn't your thing then it's no sweat.

I have an extensive audio collection (mostly in ALAC) but for my high res stereo and surround music I've stuck with FLAC. First, none of the iDevices support multichannel audio and while it looks like the Mac can I have never bothered to put a 5.1 card in a Mac. The more recent Macs with HDMI (within the last year) I think are finally supposed to support multichannel audio over HDMI. It's been a few years since I tried so maybe this is fixed, but converting the multichannel FLAC to ALAC I could not play back in iTunes but it did work through QuickTime (on a PC that has a 5.1 card).

I agree that ALAC and FLAC are for the most part interchangeable.
 
Sound is Analogue. A Vinyl is a true Analogue reproduction of the sound captured in a Studio (assuming the recording process is also analogue), it therefore the BEST reproduction of sound available.

Incorrect.

For those people not conversant with Nyquists theorem, please stay out of this discussion.
 
Not true at all. ALAC can easily handle bit and sample rates far beyond what a CD can. If you could find a way to rip the SACD to a PC (not easy AFAIK), you could compress it with ALAC and get exactly the same quality.

SACD has finally been ripped but the native format is DSD and for the most part that requires a DSD->PCM conversion (very little equipment and receivers support DSD streaming). But in the case of Blu-Ray and DVD-A it's very easy to get to PCM and then to ALAC. See my above post about iTunes and those ALAC files...
 
I remember an interview a while back with the dude that runs Beats Audio... can't remember his name, but he explained what the real problem is with audio today.

Are you seriously taking something someone at 'Beats' say's seriously? I mean... seriously.... it's like asking a guy at Bose how to make a natural sounding speaker :p


True HD audio or Ultra-High audio would need to make sure that the total production of the music was done without compression. Mixing would need to be done with the entire range of sound.

I agree, today's music is just pumped out on the factory floor, mass produced. Some artists will use very good recording techniques.


I don't see why Apple can't offer music in two versions (like the films in SD/HD), current 256kbps or ALAC.
 
I wish that Apple would come out with a multichannel lossless format.

As someone who has a significant investment in DVD-A and SACD I'd love to have a digital version of of multi channel music I could purchase.

For portable media I could care less but for in the home all we listen to is lossless.
 
I don't see why Apple can't offer music in two versions (like the films in SD/HD), current 256kbps or ALAC.

Offering everything in ALAC would require massive server upgrades.

Unfortunately this means $$$$$$$'s so it'll never happen :(
 
No word-war intended my friend. I come in peace!

The fact it wasn't an Open Source project from the beginning means it's all too little, too late. Apple knows that Apple Lossless' restrictions put the Audiophile Community off precisely because those sort of people were also intelligent enough to realise that it all smelt too much of selling one's soul to Mr. Jobs & his cronies and submitting yourself to a world of Apple with little or no room for expression of difference/manoeuvrability/customisation.

I didn't mix anything up at all, I just obviously give more weight to Open Source as meaning something more than the programming/licensing aspect. Open Source is more a cultural thing for me (as it is for many) and the fact that Apple has opened up their lossless format is nothing more than a token gesture at this stage to a community that still sees a company steadfastly refusing to compromise and adopt any standard that they cannot control with a vice-like grip (as shown by the refusal to support FLAC which is as close as we have to a standard Lossless Format)

They may have opened-up Apple Lossless as a file format...but what they haven't done is open-up the infrastructure that supports it (which they also control).

We'll have to agree to disagree I feel...but I know that for a lot of people, encoding into an Apple Format ("Open Source" or otherwise) will happen over their cold, dead bodies and that sadly, this restricts them from fully utilising what otherwise might be a VERY useful suite of products.

Balderdash. ALAC is as open source as FLAC, just the other day someone released a JavaScript ALAC encoder/decoder that runs in-browser. As for the infrastructure if you encode in ALAC then the entire iTunes infrastructure is available to you.
 
Having admittedly only skimmed the thread so far, it seems that many people are confusing the term "high definition audio" with "lossless compression". My understanding of HD recordings is that they are delivered at higher bitrates and sampling frequencies than were originally made available through the CD specification of 16bit/44.1Khz - most commonly 24bit/96Khz (although the sampling frequency can vary generally between 88-192Khz depending on the release). I assumed that the original article was referring to HD releases in this sense, not simply providing a lossless ALAC of the original 16/44.1 recordings.

The conversation also seemed to take a detour via discussion of CD vs Vinyl (which always tends to bring out the hardcore "analogue" fans), and I noticed at least a couple of comments regarding how vinyl perfectly captures the analogue waveform as recorded in the studio. Not only is this comment only accurate if the studio in question recorded to an analogue format such as 2" tape, but it would also seem to overlook one of the shortcomings of the vinyl medium, which is the physical problems it has reproducing very low frequencies. Vinyl is not a perfect recreation of the analogue waveform, as during the mastering process the audio needs to be high-pass filtered so that the grooves imprinted in the vinyl do not extend down into those parts of the frequency spectrum that would cause the stylus to physically jump over the surface of the record. In those terms, vinyl is technically just as much of an approximation of the original waveform as CD is, and whichever format you happen to personally prefer simply becomes a matter of taste and preference. Taste and preference are fine, but resorting to fallacious technical comparisons to defend your particular preference strikes me as futile. Also, as with digital formats, the vinyl playback device plays a crucial role in the quality of the output. I've seen too many "vinyl snobs" in my time who write off digital recordings, claiming analogue is king, and when I finally get to see their setups they're using nothing more than a Technics SL1210 turntable with an Ortofon cartridge - precisely the kind of setup that could very easily be bested by a decent digital source.

Finally, for the person who commented that iTunes >> Spotify represented a huge step down in audio quality, do you realise that Spotify is able to stream 320Kbps MP3s? I would hardly describe the difference between 320Kbps MP3 and 256Kbps AAC as"huge".


Personally, I agree with the earlier poster who stated that by far the biggest issue with playback quality these days comes from the mastering process. The "loudness war" that has been raging for the past decade is now probably so deeply entrenched in culture that moving away from this will sound "wrong" to many people, which is a shame, because some otherwise great albums have been destroyed through a combination of record label pressure, heavy handed mastering, and (more recently) artist desire to sound like "other records" (which also sadly suffer from this issue).

When compared to the size and scope of this problem, I personally feel that the vinyl vs digital debate completely pales into insignificance.
 
I really hate this argument.

I *love* vinyl. But there is no way that vinyl quality can beat a high-end CD player. It's just not technically possible.

True. Vinyl is analogue and does feature an "unlimited sampling rate", but it still only stores limited "bits" per "sample", because there is a physical limit defined by the thickness of the vinyl. That's why there are thicker, high quality vinyls. And that's where digital music shines, AAC is capable of much higher quality than vinyl ever will.

Also, music today is recorded directly to digital, in order not to introduce any hiss or noise. Creating an analogue medium from a digital file won't give you back any of the information lost while recording.

Don't get me wrong, i love vinyl. It's a totally different listening experience. It's just not as unbeatable as most "audiophiles" believe.

And while i like lossless formats for storage myself, another thing to keep in mind is no "audiophile" who claimed there is an audible difference between 265kb/s AAC or 320kb/s MP3 and CD Quality ever survived a blind-test.
 
And vinyl is like imax ;)

No not really.. funny how people that never listened to vinyl think it is just better without knowing the facts..



http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)


1)Proper vinyl playback is always have clicks..
2) Repeat play of the same track should wait at least several hours until the vinyl has cooled or add distortion
3)CD have better high frequence response..

There are number of things make Vinyl has issues. I prefer explore SACD or HD-DVD but this idea that vinyl perfect just doesn't hold water. Not to mention most will not wants to have put a needle on a record or keep big music collection. Even CDs will go by the waste side within time. Steve knew this and why moving to maybe a new or better format.
 
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There is no logic in subjectivity. That's the point of subjectivity. If you want logic, you go with objectivity.

And really, if Analog vs Digital is quite winnable. Show me the specs where Analog wins. It's that easy. Digital can reproduce with 100% fidelity whatever comes out of the studio. Show me an analog medium that can then bring that 100% fidelity from the studio master to your home, and I will definately back you up that analog is as good as digital.

I was referring to it being logical to accept that there is such a thing as subjectivity. I wasn't suggesting for a moment that the concept of subjectivity could be defined as logical. Apologies for the confusion. ;-)

Analogue doesn't have specs or numbers to display that it is better than a digital medium...that's part of the beauty of it. It's a literal reproduction of the sound waves that were recorded in the studio. Any digital format is merely a snapshot (however many thousands of times a second it approximates what is captured) of that source. I'll accept that vinyl as a format is ultimately useless by virtue of the fact it begins to degrade the moment it's produced...as well as the fact that it's highly impractical in the modern world. What I can't accept is the catch-all assertion that Digital Lossless > Analogue. They could probably produce an analogue format today that was far more resistant to the problems that Vinyl faces...but the fact is...other factors have meant that Digital won. It is "good enough" (for now), but certainly not "Better" than analogue capture.

Movies are a great example to display my point. "2001: A Space Odyssey" and "Baraka" were shot on lovely 65mm Film. They have subsequently been released on Blu-Ray thanks to a high-definition scanning processes that allow for a very high definition approximation of the original reels to be produced (8K in the case of "Baraka") and they look STUNNING. We are seeing today as close an approximation to the original analogue film as is possible using today's technology. Have a look at reviews of the best quality Blu-Ray picture available...those Golden Oldies will be right at the top.

Conversely, many films today are shot digitally. The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy were shot in 4K. IMAX Digital I believe already supports 8K which would mean that an 8K reproduction of Star Wars through an 8K Projector in an IMAX Theatre would need to be "upscaled" and would subsequently be of a lesser quality than would technically be possible with today's more up-to-date digital capture technology.

That's not to say that the Star Wars Prequel films don't look as good as the older movies I mentioned, in fact, we all know that much of what occurred on screen would not have been possible had it not been for the digital medium (in the same way as many modern music production techniques are not possible if you opt to use analogue tape recording).

BUT, purely due to the laws of optics...those Star Wars films will never truly be better than that 4K resolution that was current at the time of "filming". If 16K were to come out tomorrow...for all the specs of dust and slight imperfections in the reels...you could produce a 16K version of "2001: A Space Odyssey" and "Baraka" quite successfully. Star Wars would merely be 4K (perhaps "enhanced" via software upscaling) and is 4K FOREVER!

I won't convince people who already have a viewpoint on this. But it's dangerous to make assertions like you have in a field that is infamous for fostering wildly polarising views.
 
Frankly, I prefer SACDs as they offer the best sound. Sadly, this format is dead. When using my iPhone, I prefer listening to songs purchased from iTunes as they sound better than the songs I've ripped in the Apple Lossless Format. I can tell a difference between a song purchased from iTunes and the same song ripped from a CD in the same format as Apple uses.
 
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