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Bear in mind that 'lossless' is not the same thing as 'high definition'. A 'high definition' audio file might have a bit depth of 24 bits and sample rate of 96KHz, for example. It could be carefully compressed and still be 'high definition'.

A low definition sound file might only be 8 bits in depth and sampled at 22kHz. You could have that stored in a lossless format - i.e. no compression of the data file. But it would still sound 'lo-fi' (i.e. rubbish).
 
Analogue doesn't have specs or numbers to display that it is better than a digital medium...that's part of the beauty of it.

Sure it does. Whereas digital is bits, peaks and valleys, Analog is a waveform. Waveforms are mathetimatical and can be expressed as... *drumroll*, specifications.
 
To all the young people out there...if you get the chance at a local flea market,craigs ect...go buy a nice tube receiver,a record player,some nice large wood box speakers,and a album like boston (self titled boston) and you will have a moment! You won't believe what you have missed all these years with your gadgets!

And then be sure to go out and buy a vehicle from the '50s or '60s with the heavy metal bodies, spark plugs, points, rotor, and carburetor, all of which require frequent adjustment and replacement.

Tube receiver? You've got to be kidding!
 
I was referring to it being logical to accept that there is such a thing as subjectivity. I wasn't suggesting for a moment that the concept of subjectivity could be defined as logical. Apologies for the confusion. ;-)

Analogue doesn't have specs or numbers to display that it is better than a digital medium...that's part of the beauty of it. It's a literal reproduction of the sound waves that were recorded in the studio. Any digital format is merely a snapshot (however many thousands of times a second it approximates what is captured) of that source. I'll accept that vinyl as a format is ultimately useless by virtue of the fact it begins to degrade the moment it's produced...as well as the fact that it's highly impractical in the modern world. What I can't accept is the catch-all assertion that Digital Lossless > Analogue. They could probably produce an analogue format today that was far more resistant to the problems that Vinyl faces...but the fact is...other factors have meant that Digital won. It is "good enough" (for now), but certainly not "Better" than analogue capture.

Movies are a great example to display my point. "2001: A Space Odyssey" and "Baraka" were shot on lovely 65mm Film. They have subsequently been released on Blu-Ray thanks to a high-definition scanning processes that allow for a very high definition approximation of the original reels to be produced (8K in the case of "Baraka") and they look STUNNING. We are seeing today as close an approximation to the original analogue film as is possible using today's technology. Have a look at reviews of the best quality Blu-Ray picture available...those Golden Oldies will be right at the top.

Conversely, many films today are shot digitally. The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy were shot in 4K. IMAX Digital I believe already supports 8K which would mean that an 8K reproduction of Star Wars through an 8K Projector in an IMAX Theatre would need to be "upscaled" and would subsequently be of a lesser quality than would technically be possible with today's more up-to-date digital capture technology.

That's not to say that the Star Wars Prequel films don't look as good as the older movies I mentioned, in fact, we all know that much of what occurred on screen would not have been possible had it not been for the digital medium (in the same way as many modern music production techniques are not possible if you opt to use analogue tape recording).

BUT, purely due to the laws of optics...those Star Wars films will never truly be better than that 4K resolution that was current at the time of "filming". If 16K were to come out tomorrow...for all the specs of dust and slight imperfections in the reels...you could produce a 16K version of "2001: A Space Odyssey" and "Baraka" quite successfully. Star Wars would merely be 4K (perhaps "enhanced" via software upscaling) and is 4K FOREVER!

I won't convince people who already have a viewpoint on this. But it's dangerous to make assertions like you have in a field that is infamous for fostering wildly polarising views.

Facepalm.
 
The biggest difference between a compressed and lossless format is the "audio fatigue" that sets in quicker when you listen to a compressed song. Compressed formats reduce filesize by eliminating the background noise and inaudible frequencies in music. Sound is captured as vibrations in the eardrums and processed, this includes the inaudible sound which is captured but not processed by the brain.

Listening to a compressed format deprives the ears and brain of those inaudible frequencies and you are subject to sound only from the audible range and the repeated sound from the same frequency range tires out the ears pretty quickly. If you listen to music in a lossless format or from vinyls you would notice you would enjoy music for a far longer period and not tire your ears so easily.

There are rarely, if ever, any ultrasonic frequencies for vinyl to preserve. In audio recordings, such frequencies, when present, are normally low-energy noise imparted by electrical equipment and storage media used during recording, mixing, and mastering. Although some musical instruments can produce low-energy overtones in the ultrasonic range, they could only be on the vinyl if every piece of equipment and storage medium in the recording, mixing, and mastering stages was able to preserve them—which is unlikely even in modern recordings, since the average microphone or mixing console is designed only with audible frequencies in mind. Even if the overtones were preserved all the way to the mastering stage, mono and stereo lacquer cutting equipment typically includes a lowpass filter to avoid overheating the cutting head with ultrasonic frequencies.

Finally, on top of all of these issues, there is simply no scientific evidence that frequencies beyond the 22 kHz limit of CD audio are audible to any known group of people, or that such frequencies affect anyone's perception of the audible range. There is no evidence that reconstruction and anti-aliasing issues are audible.
 
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Just to be clear...my argument is less that Vinyl > Lossless (that's more me being sentimental), more that Analogue Recording for true sound capture is inherently and conceptually > Digital

You wouldn't catch me buying a Vinyl today if it's possible for me to obtain a FLAC version. For the record, I'd happily put up with "Lossless" (as we currently understand it - preferably via FLAC) for the purposes of iTunes downloads.
 
oooo... lossless vs mp3, I love this argument.

It's not so much if you can hear it, it's really maintaining the integrity of the audio file. As close to analog as you can get is in fact BETTER whether you can hear it or not. The tradeoff is filesize. At this point in time, I question why we're still using mp3 since filesize has been and continues to be less of an issue.

the question to ask is if you have enough space for all lossless. Now with the cloud, it's really just your main computer that you'd need the space on. For some perspective, my library is approximately 15K songs and it takes up 500GB. Half of an $80 1TB drive. If I had all mp3, I'd be taking up 150GB of an $80 1TB drive.

The question isn't why switch to lossless, it's why not?

The adder for me is that the audio output on the iPod/iPhone/iPad is decent, so if you are able to connect your device to a nice system, the difference can most certainly be heard. If you don't believe so, why take the chance?
 
Sure it does. Whereas digital is bits, peaks and valleys, Analog is a waveform. Waveforms are mathetimatical and can be expressed as... *drumroll*, specifications.

So show me the evidence that Analogue waveform (note, NOT Vinyl) is better than digital "waveform"...


I'm still waiting...Because that kind of evidence doesn't exist.
 
The main reason I don't use the iTunes Store. Lossy compression is for wimps.

I'd like to see "eardrum" quality (get it, like retina?) audio with a channel for each instrument on DVDs or something. It would take up so much space that it wouldn't be pirated, and if someone pirated it, they'd get some stupid MP3 that the ripper made from it.

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Again, citation needed.

Definition of analog.
 
So show me the evidence that Analogue waveform (note, NOT Vinyl) is better than digital "waveform"...


I'm still waiting...Because that kind of evidence doesn't exist.

Analog is initially better than digital but can degrade more easily. In general, you'd get better quality from a good digital file just because of imperfections in the analog equipment, but analog is perfect quality in theory.

However, it's easiest to trust analog recordings because you know it won't have lossy compression :D

This article says a lot about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_analog_and_digital_recording
 
Of course, that's as far as you know. Thank god the specification knows more than you. ;)

Yeah, fair enough :) I hadn't researched the format enough to be aware that ALAC is apparently capable of handling 8 audio streams. I ought to have phrased my response more accurately by saying "to my knowledge, there are not any widely known commercially available sources of multichannel ALAC files", which is pretty much what I read the poster who you quoted as meaning by his comment.

Still, thanks for the correction (even if you could have been less facetious in your choice of wording!).
 
As someone who greatly appreciates high fidelity audio, I've got to say, high definition (aka. lossless) music is rather pointless.

The difference between a 256 kbps AAC file and a lossless file is incredibly minor - especially with the audio equipment that the vast majority of people use. Even to a discerning listener with high quality speakers or a great pair of headphones, the difference will still be very minor. Once you've reached 256kbps, you've passed the point where diminishing returns has taken over any additional data is hardly noticeable - even to an audiophile.

Besides, as long as record producers keep releasing overly compressed, loudness war'd garbage, most music will continue to sound horrible regardless. In most cases, upgrading to lossless music would be like offering a multi-vitamin to someone who has just had his legs blown off. The level of dynamic range compression that exists throughout the music industry is many orders of magnitude more significant in harming overall sound quality than the 256kbps bitrate is.

Although I agree with you and am also an audiophile, the problem is that the consumers are not getting the "full quality" of the recording...period. Ripping a cd to any lossy file is, by definition, not full quality from the source (vinyl or cd for example). On a side note, even if we were to go to some kind of new super-audio format (which failed miserably decades ago) with extremely high bit/sample rates and all that other wonderful techno-mumbo-jumbo, very very few people own the equipment to even appreciate the super-dee-duperness of the new format.

If and when I can purchase full quality, lossless, NON-APPLE-PROPRIETARY files, I will stop buying cds. Until then, I am happy plunking down $9.99 or $10.99 for a new-release cd and being able to rip it any way I choose now or in the future. It also offers me all the tangible benefits that I cannot get from a downloaded file.
 
Just to be clear...my argument is less that Vinyl > Lossless (that's more me being sentimental), more that Analogue Recording for true sound capture is inherently and conceptually > Digital

You wouldn't catch me buying a Vinyl today if it's possible for me to obtain a FLAC version. For the record, I'd happily put up with "Lossless" (as we currently understand it - preferably via FLAC) for the purposes of iTunes downloads.

If by theoretical analogue you mean being at the live performance. Yes I'm sure Live Performance > Digital.;)
 
as the post below yours says...the very definition of analogue means it is better than digital bits & bytes (which are after all...a digital approximation (however good) of analogue waveforms)

Which really means,
I CAN'T HEAR YOU NAH NAH NAH I WILL REPEAT AND REPEAT UNTIL WHAT I SAY IS TRUE NAH NAH NAH
 
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Do some reading on Nyquists theorem. PCM digital is NOT lossy. CD's have the potential to be every bit as good as the studio master. Studios use high sampling rates to ensure the best result when signals are edited/processed digitally. Playback does not require this.

44.1/16 PCM is more than enough to handle the dynamic range and frequency response of any recorded music, and way better than vinyl could hope to be. Ever listened to a really good CD player?

ALAC or FLAC meets and exceeds Mr Young's requirements.

44,1 was a degradation of the original 48 kHz format, wich was considered to contain all the frequency information. With 44.1 you miss a bit of high-end that contains mostly spatial information (If you listen to speakers that go to above 23 kHz; like over 1k each studio monitor you'll know what I mean while being blown away by the fantastic stereo imaging)
96 kHz is more difficult to get in term of difference but there is one (it's just more resolution. there's never to much information).
That's the exact domain where mp3 screws it (perception of space in the stereo field, high end depending of quality)
It's also serves a specific prupose in production: you can change the pitch and length of an audio file without losing to much information (It won't sound "harsh"). Like slowing down a 96k sample by two you still keep as much information as in a 48k sample.

For the "bit resolution", in production 24 bits gives you headroom (your record won't peak at the first difference in dynamic). And internal processing is even better in 32 bit (you can't hear it, but after a few effects have been applied the result will sound better.).
Then for your listening pleasure as opposed to 48kHz vs 96kHz 24 bit does sound significantly better than 16 bit. Again more information is never to much to approach the analogue "reality".

So it's freaking sad that not only lossless are too rare (plus it's only a minor difference in size); but high quality lossless (24 bit at least) are even rarer.
Even high-quality compression with loss format would of at least a little interest (like the dolby format for dvd, but 24/ 96 kHz). It's the norm in video anyway (you always get compressed video, but at least there was a step up in resolution)
So no thanks I won't buy an mp3.
Counting on the few indie distribution for lossless, and still on home converted cd (which is a pain).
 

err...

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
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Its neutrality is disputed. Tagged since May 2008.


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If by theoretical analogue you mean being at the live performance. Yes I'm sure Live Performance > Digital.;)

Actually, a live performance has all sorts of issues that are solved by a studio. Just the fact that the accoustics of a bar/stadium/arena/venue are not perfect distorts the analog waveform from the true original music.
 
Myths (Vinyl)

Vinyl - Myths


Vinyl always sounds better than CD

As described below, despite decades of arguments, there is no technical proof of the sonic superiority of the vinyl medium compared to CD. One vinyl record may sound better than its equivalent CD for extremely specific reasons. That does not mean the medium as a whole is superior.
Many people do prefer listening to music to vinyl rather than on CD or digital formats. Many of those reasons have nothing to do with actual sound quality, and have more to do with the tactile characteristics of vinyl - its "feel" - like larger artwork and its required playback ritual. Others prefer listening to CDs for a different set of reasons. There is nothing wrong with preferring vinyl to CDs, as long as the preference is honestly stated on emotional terms, or is precisely quantified and tied to subjective experience, and not obscured with (fallacious) technical appeals.

Vinyl requires a better-sounding master because it is physically incapable of reproducing the hypercompressed sound mastered to CD

Different masters can substantially improve or reduce sound quality. Some have less background noise. Some alter the dynamic range. There are other mastering techniques that can also affect the sound.
There are documented instances of different masters being used on vinyl releases compared to CD releases. One notable example is The White Stripes' Icky Thump. However, there are also many documented instances of the same masters being used on vinyl releases compared to CD releases. In fact, if you purchase an album produced in the last two decades on vinyl, it is logical to assume that the master will be no better than on CD unless evidence is found to the contrary. Alternative masters for vinyl cost money, and mastering is a significant cost of producing a record. It is very likely that some producers - believing in the myth that vinyl is an inherently superior medium, as mentioned in other myths described here - will simply use the CD master for the vinyl release, believing that it will automatically yield a superior sound.
The technical details behind this myth are as follows. The cutting heads used for creating the vinyl lacquer (or metal mother) are speaker-like electromechanical devices driven by an extremely powerful amplifier (several hundred watts). At extremely large/fast cutting head excursions, the cutting head coils may physically burn up, much like how a speaker's voice coils may be destroyed by an excessive current. Also, the diamond cutting head stylus may prematurely wear or break. This places important constraints on the maximum levels that can be recorded to a record.
A very high power output is required to cut grooves with a high acceleration. Acceleration at the same signal amplitude is higher for higher-frequency signals. Heavily clipped and limited CDs in the modern mastering style have more high-frequency content than earlier masters. In general, increasing the perceived volume of a record - whether by increasing the recording level or by limiting/clipping/compression - raises the cutting head average power.
Additionally, during playback, the turntable's stylus has limits on what grooves it can successfully track. Cartridges can only track grooves of a finite modulation width (measured in microns) that decreases in frequency. For instance, a cartridge may only be able to track a 300 µm-wide groove at 300 Hz, and yet only 50 µm at 20 kHz. This also places limits on the acceleration and velocity limits the record master can take.
The most obvious way to work around these issues is simply to reduce the recording level of the vinyl master. Multiband limiters exist for recording purposes that dynamically reduce the treble content of the master, to limit the cutting head power usage.

The vinyl surface is heated to several hundred degrees on playback, and repeat play of the same track should wait at least several hours until the vinyl has cooled

Professional estimates for the stylus surface temperature during playback are 300-500 °F. Obviously, the temperature of the record is at or close to room temperature except at the stylus contact point - otherwise the record would completely melt. Back-to-back playback will introduce slightly more distortion than a fresh play. This is believed to be a temporary effect and goes away after approx. 10 minutes.

Repeated playback (no matter what the timeframe) carries the risk of permanent damage. Obviously, records are observed to wear out with repeated play. No published evidence exists of back-to-back playback causing any more permanent damage than if repeated plays are separated by any longer period of time.
Proper vinyl playback is click-free

Pops and clicks are often not audible during a song on a well-maintained record and should not distract from the listening experience.

No evidence exists of a record that is shown to be played back with absolutely no pops or clicks whatsoever. They are introduced at virtually every stage of production, from cutting the lacquer to the pressing to the playback itself. Some pops and ticks are pressed into the record itself.
Some pops and ticks result from static discharges during playback. However, this may be mitigated by the use of topical treatments on the record.
Because of the lack of evidence for a tick-free record and the engineering factors making such a record extremely rare, it is quite likely that no record exists that is truly free from all pops and ticks.

Vinyl is better than CD because it reproduces higher frequencies than CD and avoids anti-aliasing filter issues at the frequencies CDs can reproduce

The recording/tracking ability of vinyl is easily at least 50 kHz and perhaps as high as 100 kHz. The most notably proof of this is the CD4 quadraphonic system which relied on a 45 kHz bandwidth to be accurately reproduced. That said, the high-frequency response accuracy of vinyl varies tremendously. Frequency deviations of 5-10 dB or greater are not uncommon in the 20 kHz range for many records.
Playback of ultrasound frequencies is still not guaranteed. Many MM cartridges have resonant peaks defined by the preamp loading, or stylus tip resonances defined by the cantilever, that attenuate high-frequency content.
When groove wear does occur, it occurs much faster at high frequencies than at low frequencies. For modern styli this is not as much of a concern, though.
There are rarely, if ever, any ultrasonic frequencies for vinyl to preserve. In audio recordings, such frequencies, when present, are normally low-energy noise imparted by electrical equipment and storage media used during recording, mixing, and mastering. Although some musical instruments can produce low-energy overtones in the ultrasonic range, they could only be on the vinyl if every piece of equipment and storage medium in the recording, mixing, and mastering stages was able to preserve them—which is unlikely even in modern recordings, since the average microphone or mixing console is designed only with audible frequencies in mind. Even if the overtones were preserved all the way to the mastering stage, mono and stereo lacquer cutting equipment typically includes a lowpass filter to avoid overheating the cutting head with ultrasonic frequencies.
Finally, on top of all of these issues, there is simply no scientific evidence that frequencies beyond the 22 kHz limit of CD audio are audible to any known group of people, or that such frequencies affect anyone's perception of the audible range. There is no evidence that reconstruction and anti-aliasing issues are audible.

Vinyl is better than digital because the analog signal on the vinyl tracks the analog signal exactly, while digital is quantized into steps

PCM encoding (used on CDs and DVD-A) records audio data in a quantized format. Analog formats do not have a measurable time or signal resolution.
PCM is sometimes characterized as producing a jagged, "stair-step" waveform. This is only partially correct; analog-to-digital conversion (ADC) does indeed use a sample-and-hold circuit to measure an approximate, average amplitude across the duration of the sample, and digital-to-analog conversion (DAC) does the same kind of thing, generating a rectangular-ish waveform, but this output is always then subjected to additional filtering to smooth it out. Effectively, the ADC output sample values are interpreted as a series of points intersected by the waveform; the DAC output is a smooth curve, not a stair-step at all. Additionally, modern ADC and DAC chips are engineered to reduce below the threshold of audibility, if not completely eliminate, any other sources of noise in this conversion process, resulting in an extremely high correlation between the input and output signals.
PCM can encode time delays to any arbitrarily small length. Time delays of 1us or less - a tiny fraction of the sample rate - are easily achievable. The theoretical minimum delay is 1ns or less. (Proof here.)
With a correct implementation using dither, signal quantization (ie 16-bit or 24-bit) only adds wideband noise to the signal, not quantization distortion. If this dither noise is well below the already-present noise floor, it is inaudible.
Analog encoding still has many measurable and audible faults, potentially including harmonic distortion, noise and intermodulation distortion. These distortions have invariably measured higher than for digital formats, including CD.
The term "analog", by definition, means that the signal is not and cannot be a perfect reproduction of the original - it is merely an "analogue" of the existing signal, corrupted in the process of encoding.
In short, by any numerical basis, vinyl is not as accurate as competing digital formats.

Vinyl has greater resolution than CD because its dynamic range is higher than for CD at the most audible frequencies

The dynamic range of vinyl, when evaluated as the ratio of a peak sinusoidal amplitude to the peak noise density at that sine wave frequency, is somewhere around 80 dB. Under theoretically ideal conditions, this could perhaps improve to 120 dB. The dynamic range of CDs, when evaluated on a frequency-dependent basis and performed with proper dithering and oversampling, is somewhere around 150 dB. Under no legitimate circumstances will the dynamic range of vinyl ever exceed the dynamic range of CD, under any frequency, given the wide performance gap and the physical limitations of vinyl playback. More discussion at Hydrogenaudio.

Adding a penny to the headshell improves tracking/sound

The trackability of a cartridge is related to the mechanical parameters of the tonearm and stylus assembly. Adding weight to the headshell (and adjusting the counterweight to compensate) increases the effective mass of the tonearm and reduces its resonant frequency. If the resonant frequency is excessively high - 15-20 Hz as measured by a test record - the weight may improve trackability by moving the resonance out of the audible range. Otherwise, it will generally only reduce trackability.
 
As the post below yours says...The very definition of analogue means it is better than Digital bits & bytes (which are after all...a digital approximation (however good) of analogue waveforms)

Yeah, but there is no such thing as a true analogue medium except being there yourself. Also, go google Nyquist-Shannon. The human ear is only capable of hearing a limited amount of sound frequencies. Use the highest frequency as your sampling rate and you will be able to 100% exactly reproduce the initial waveforms.
 
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If Apple really cares about audio quality, they'd ship and sell better headphones. Music is only ever as good as the speakers being used.

Sorry but that doesn't make sense.

Apple offers the service, you can buy any headphones you want. Do you also expect video rental shops to carry their own brand of HDTVs?

The Apple in-ear headphones don't completely suck and, while not the best, are enough to differentiate various bitrates. There's also a pretty wide choice of high-end headphones at the Apple store anyway. They will still be compatible even if there's no Apple logo on it, you know.
 
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