Apple Has 'Very Serious' DMA Issues, EU to Enforce Rules 'Soon'

[wbeasley]

Great, just pointing out that Apple doesn’t always follow the law, after you had said Apple follows the laws in the countries that it does business in.


Do you realize the guy you’re referring to lost his libel case in Australia? Lol. And I’m in the U.S. where our freedom of speech is more encompassing than most other countries and the bar for proving libel is very high. I bid Apple good luck.

Freedom of Speech is not freedom from consequence.

Where is Apple not following local laws? Has there ever been another country/group who fined Apple 2 billion Euros or used worldwide sales to justify a fine?

Mostly we get complaints on here the Apple bows down to China on human rights and freedoms. They adhere to laws on what apps their stores can distribute.

 

[Jamie0003]

different platform aims.

MacOS was designed to be desktop (ie more general purpose and open).

iOS was a ground up rewrite to focus on mobile devices.
app store was an afterthought.
but stayed in their controlled, secure environment.

we could have had only webapps if Jobs hadnt been convinced to allow third party apps.

That wasn’t my question, or the point lol

 

[m4mario]

As if US never stole EU technologies from them either, and maybe US should show gratitude for that?
Either way, if you really want to drill deep into this rabbit hole, iPhone should not be released past US, nor should Apple hire anyone that’s not born US citizen to work within. Immigration should be stopped permanently across all countries. Internet should be shutdown, all for the sake of “not let technologies developed by us be stolen“.

Not all countries. Just the countries whose governments want American technologies for free. It's one thing for one company to copy a technology from another, it's something else when a government involves in extortion of proprietary American tech. This is an unprecedented attack. I hope you can see the difference.

 

[wbeasley]

That wasn’t my question, or the point lol

so what was the question?

 

[Jamie0003]

so what was the question?

Do I need to copy and paste your original comment?

 

[Infinity Vortex]

Freedom of Speech is not freedom from consequence.

Didn’t say it was. That’s doesn’t mean Apple would win a libel case because of what was being discussed on a forum. They wouldn’t even bother trying to bring one. But if you think otherwise…🤣

Where is Apple not following local laws? Has there ever been another country/group who fined Apple 2 billion Euros or used worldwide sales to justify a fine?

Mostly we get complaints on here the Apple bows down to China on human rights and freedoms. They adhere to laws on what apps their stores can distribute.

United States v. Apple (2012) - Wikipedia

www.wikipedia.org

 

[wbeasley]

Do I need to copy and paste your original comment?

so it was a throw away comment?

 

[I7guy]

Didn’t say it was. That’s doesn’t mean Apple would win a libel case because of what was being discussed on a forum. They wouldn’t even bother trying to bring one. But if you think otherwise…🤣

United States v. Apple (2012) - Wikipedia

www.wikipedia.org

That’s the internet meme when it’s said that apple follows local laws. I guess if anyone (even a jaywalking ticket)or any company breaks the law even once, you’re a scofflaw, don’t follow the laws and have legal troubles.

 

[wbeasley]

Didn’t say it was. That’s doesn’t mean Apple would win a libel case because of what was being discussed on a forum. They wouldn’t even bother trying to bring one. But if you think otherwise…🤣

United States v. Apple (2012) - Wikipedia

www.wikipedia.org

you went back to 2012? on ebooks?

i'm happy if they get done for something dodgy. ebooks were new, they probably thought it was a good way to gain marketshare. wouldnt be the first time someone made a lossleader deal to gain market.

hopefully they learnt something from that case.

but what are they doing currently that breaks laws?

 

[cocky jeremy]

Going to repeat my question:

Are you suggesting Apple split off their EU App Store business into a separate, independent(ly operating) company?

No. I'm suggesting Apple has nothing to do with the EU. They find a company outside the EU, make them the sole distributor for the EU, and Apple sells to them and has nothing to do with anything going into the EU.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

I get the impression many of the American posters here don’t realise this or think Apple pulling out of the EU (which they suggest) would harm anyone other than Apple.

I think you misunderstood the point.

The scenario of Apple pulling out of EU would not be to "punish EU". It would happen if the result of complying with EU requirements outweighs the benefits of selling in the EU market. Remember that EU requirements have global implications - e.g. Apple can't open access to the 3rd party app stores in the EU only, they would be forced to do that in all markets.

It’s not like there aren’t other popular smartphones on the market besides the iPhone and consumers would simply gravitate towards other brands with minimal fuss.

That's true. And most of these "other brands" are going to be Chinese. Which will not be beneficial for EU in the long run.

Also, Apple is one of the most valuable American companies and a major player in US economy. An extortionist EU policy towards Apple would likely trigger a response. Again, I am not referring particularly to this one case.

Personally, I am not a fan of Apple's policies when it comes to hardware. However, I am also not a fan of sideloading apps from unknown sources on devices where I do my financial and health care related transactions. And I don't believe that an average consumer is capable of maintaining good security practices.

 

[PlayUltimate]

It imposes undue financial burdens on developers and third-party services, restricts free and fair access to core platform services, and perpetuates Apple’s market dominance.

I guess this is what it is designed to counter.
Since the DMA was written in such a way that only 6 global companies were affected ( Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, ByteDance, Meta and Microsoft ), no one should be surprised that diminishing these companies is the ultimate goal.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Double dutch with an Irish twist sandwich, look that up. With google, not Siri. The EU politicians get nothing.

It's actually a double Irish with a Dutch sandwich - two Irish companies and a Dutch in-between.

But I was under impression that this particular scheme is no longer workable.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple seems to like some EU member country rules when it comes to tax evasion
How about they quit whining and comply with the EU DMA and move on with business and life

At any given moment they are the most valuable company on the planet ... with hundreds of BILLIONS of cash in the bank

They don't to be defended -- they need to be held in check and made to comply with jurisdictional regulations
The only real "innovation" they do anymore is figuring out more ways to rent seek, overcharge and evade taxes

 

[mode11]

Remember that EU requirements have global implications - e.g. Apple can't open access to the 3rd party app stores in the EU only, they would be forced to do that in all markets.

I don't think that's the case. There are already 3rd party app stores in the EU (if restrictively implemented), but not anywhere else.

Or do you think that a thriving 3rd party app store situation in Europe would have Apple customers in other jurisdictions, e.g. the US, wanting the same? Apple certainly seem to fear this, judging by their sudden decision to allow retro console emulators after all these years; they were a big reason why people were pushing for alternative stores.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

if you cant acknowledge the CTF is Core Technology Fee and choose to misrepresent it then is shows a lot about your reason for arguing here

Th CTF is Core technology fee, but in practice it’s still a commission. And even tho Apple thought it isn’t a core service… it is a core gatekeeper service.

their code didnt allow other app stores.

now it does.

and the code had to change because the geo identify whether you are in EU.
and lock you out of alt app store is you stay out of EU for a period.

It did, you could install alternative AppStore’s in the last 18 iOS versions.

You only needed a proper certificate to do it as a user. This is without jailbreaking.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I guess this is what it is designed to counter.
Since the DMA was written in such a way that only 6 global companies were affected ( Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, ByteDance, Meta and Microsoft ), no one should be surprised that diminishing these companies is the ultimate goal.

Well more companies are likely getting covers.

Example Booking.com is considered a Gatekeeper and they are a EU company

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I think you misunderstood the point.

The scenario of Apple pulling out of EU would not be to "punish EU". It would happen if the result of complying with EU requirements outweighs the benefits of selling in the EU market. Remember that EU requirements have global implications - e.g. Apple can't open access to the 3rd party app stores in the EU only, they would be forced to do that in all markets.


That's true. And most of these "other brands" are going to be Chinese. Which will not be beneficial for EU in the long run.

Also, Apple is one of the most valuable American companies and a major player in US economy. An extortionist EU policy towards Apple would likely trigger a response. Again, I am not referring particularly to this one case.

Personally, I am not a fan of Apple's policies when it comes to hardware. However, I am also not a fan of sideloading apps from unknown sources on devices where I do my financial and health care related transactions. And I don't believe that an average consumer is capable of maintaining good security practices.

If it outweighs their benefits for trading here then absolutely they should pull out. It wouldn’t punish the EU, I am aware of that.

The other brands tend to be Samsung, Motorola and Google, and some Chinese sure. There was a time when in my circles everyone used iPhones but things have shifted a lot in the last 5 years. A lot more people seem to be using Android phones now they are on par with iPhones and tend to come with better deals. I don’t think Apple pulling out of the UK and EU is going to hurt the economy here as much as it will hurt Apple the company. Europe is a big market for them even if they aren’t market leaders here.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

I don't think that's the case. There are already 3rd party app stores in the EU (if restrictively implemented), but not anywhere else.

Or do you think that a thriving 3rd party app store situation in Europe would have Apple customers in other jurisdictions, e.g. the US, wanting the same? Apple certainly seem to fear this, judging by their sudden decision to allow retro console emulators after all these years; they were a big reason why people were pushing for alternative stores.

Apple will not be able to defend not opening up its walled garden in the NA market if it is doing it in the EU market. Don’t underestimate the complexity of US internal politics. Apple obviously has a lot of political influence here but at the same time it’s a fat juicy target.

What the customers want is one thing. A major boost for some AG's political career by forcing an evil corporation into a consumer friendly practice is another. A high payoff in a major class action lawsuit is yet another. A bunch of companies able to make billions by selling products without giving Apple its 30% cut is yet another. Any single entity may not have the same clout as Apple, but if they are acting together it's a powerful force. If Apple is forced into opening iOS to the 3rd party apps bypassing the AppStore in one market, they will find it all but impossible to defend the same practice on their home turf.

So, if the EU keeps making rules that erode Apple's ability to make money, at some point they would need to chose between selling in the EU or making money. It's really a simple math problem.

 

[Infinity Vortex]

That’s the internet meme when it’s said that apple follows local laws. I guess if anyone (even a jaywalking ticket)or any company breaks the law even once, you’re a scofflaw, don’t follow the laws and have legal troubles.

So anti-trust violations are equivalent to a jaywalking ticket? Interesting philosophy lol. I guess there’s no cause for you to be concerned about the U.S. DOJ case then. After all, the impact on Apple would really be nothing more than the equivalent of a jaywalking ticket to you or me. 🙂

you went back to 2012? on ebooks?

Were those goal posts heavy? You said Apple follows the laws of where they operate. They’ve broken the law previously. It’s not a stretch that it’s possible they’re doing it again.

i'm happy if they get done for something dodgy. ebooks were new, they probably thought it was a good way to gain marketshare. wouldnt be the first time someone made a lossleader deal to gain market.

And this loss leader deal was a violation of anti-trust law.

hopefully they learnt something from that case.

One could certainly hope.

but what are they doing currently that breaks laws?

Like I said, let’s see the coming conclusion of the EU regulator’s investigation.

 

[PlayUltimate]

Like I said, let’s see the coming conclusion of the EU regulator’s investigation.

Agreed. Lots of conjecture on both sides. And as the article states, "The charges would be preliminary and Apple could take actions to allay the concerns of the regulators..." Looks to me like there is a lot of glee, on the one-hand, and dread, on the other, about what is only a preliminary finding. Which may result in no changes at all from what Apple has already proposed.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Sigh Spotify doesn’t fit the criteria in any shape or form.

Only because the EU used extremely specific criteria to determine such things. Saying "doesn't fit the criteria" is a joke, right? Since I'm arguing against the criteria you and the EU are using.

Spotify has a music sales platform. They dominate the market. They do not allow artists or 3rd parties to use their platform to sell music independent of Spotify.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

I’m not the regulator so I’ll have to see what they say in their investigation that’s due to conclude soon. They’re certainly more qualified than you or I to outline if and how Apple may be breaking the law.

But above you stated frankly that Apple was breaking the law. So which is it?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Only because the EU used extremely specific criteria to determine such things. Saying "doesn't fit the criteria" is a joke, right? Since I'm arguing against the criteria you and the EU are using.

Spotify has a music sales platform. They dominate the market. They do not allow artists or 3rd parties to use their platform to sell music independent of Spotify.

But they aren’t selling music. They are just as much a store as a cinema showing movies, or a disco with headsets….

 

[Timo_Existencia]

forcing an evil corporation into a consumer friendly practice is another.

THIS is the attitude that cracks me up on this thread. It's really whats underneath all of this nonsense in the EU. This silly idea that Apple is EVIL and that the EU's actions are without a doubt "consumer friendly."

I dispute both points.