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4jasontv

Suspended
Jul 31, 2011
6,272
7,548
I work in email marketing and the unnecessary Apple Mail privacy changes are causing havoc. So unwarranted and a detriment to the customer - all Apple want to do is make life difficult for other tech firms.

I find this advert misleading - it implies we as a business sell on info about a customers email engagement, unhelpful fear mongering.

We don’t.
Nor does any other company.
Why!
It’s worthless data.
When you have millions of customers in your CRM program you aggregate the stats. It helps us understand as a channel how we are doing.

I look forward to Apple putting this ad up in traditional media so I can file a complaint with the ASA.
Are you referring to collecting data about if an email was read? No sender has a right to that information.
 

Johnny907

macrumors 68000
Sep 20, 2014
1,994
3,621
Would love to see the casting sheet for this ad: "We need the two creepiest looking F's you can find."
*Shudder*
Sorry but I had to block the thumbnail, to say anything of clicking Play on that ad.
 

sw1tcher

macrumors 603
Jan 6, 2004
5,492
19,263
But they aren't as "privacy focused" as their marketing loves to lie to consumers.
Their privacy stance isn't universally applicable. It depends on the user's location.

I wonder what data the Chinese government can access and have seen since Apple has a data center there.




And there are numerous countries where Apple's Private Relay isn't available.

 

System603

macrumors member
Dec 15, 2021
63
250
Europe
I like Apple's approach to privacy. That's important part of why I have all those shiny Apple products.

But it's privacy ads are almost always waaay over the top. I understand why they try really hard to sell their privacy idea to the customers but I'm not sure whether the end justifies the means here.

Also, when I'll be able to do Siri offline? On iPhone, on HomePod, on Watch (via iPhone if necessary). The voice control part shouldn't be *that* hard as Google got it sorted out for years now. I'm glad Sonos is doing something in this regard at least.

Edit: My bad. Some features of Siri are now available offline with iOS 15. Kudos and sorry Tim Apple.
 
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ackmondual

macrumors 68020
Dec 23, 2014
2,435
1,147
U.S.A., Earth
Never said they did. But they aren't as "privacy focused" as their marketing loves to lie to consumers.
This is one reason why people just use Google products and services. "It just works". Just like how some iOS users are aware they're entering a walled garden, some Android users are aware of those limitations, and choose to deal with them in a similar manner
 
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dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,693
15,043
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
So another marketing campaign like we used to see with the "Privacy" billboards and messages.
Something to do with these recent EU and other country "requests" seems to have Apple (not seeing Google marketing ads) all in a tither. Maybe for good reason?

How about Apple be straight up and honest for a change?
 
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mzeb

macrumors 6502
Jan 30, 2007
358
612
I actually used ATT the other day. I went looking for a new calorie tracker and landed on MyNetDiary for the reason of it not actually linking data to you. (It is collecting your calorie count so it has to collect some data.) All the other top calorie trackers collect and link the data to you. Why? Why does it need to be linked to me? And so ATT worked, and I feel better not being tracked.
 

Scoob Redux

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2020
580
891
Fwiw, it's also scanned on iCloud photos (on Apple's servers). That feature has not been cancelled, it's alive and kicking for years now.

However, it's a false equivalency. This ad is about selling private data on the open market. It is indisputable that Apple doesn't do this with photos or anything really.
Correct, they didn't propose scanning photos on your phone and selling the data on the open market, they proposed GIVING IT TO THE GOVERNMENT. Much more insidious and evil.
 
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JippaLippa

macrumors 65816
Jan 14, 2013
1,484
1,660
I mean, I love Apple.
But after the whole CSAM situation...sounds a bit hypocritical.
This doesn't change the fact it's much better than google.
 

gsurf123

macrumors 6502
Jun 1, 2017
472
848
I work in email marketing and the unnecessary Apple Mail privacy changes are causing havoc. So unwarranted and a detriment to the customer - all Apple want to do is make life difficult for other tech firms.

I find this advert misleading - it implies we as a business sell on info about a customers email engagement, unhelpful fear mongering.

We don’t.
Nor does any other company.
Why!
It’s worthless data.
When you have millions of customers in your CRM program you aggregate the stats. It helps us understand as a channel how we are doing.

I look forward to Apple putting this ad up in traditional media so I can file a complaint with the ASA.
You are one of the leeches the rest of us are trying to avoid. Get a new career that adds to society. I’ll take the supposed detriment over receiving a single email I do t want and did not ask for.
 

mingoglia

macrumors 6502
Dec 10, 2009
486
69
I work in email marketing and the unnecessary Apple Mail privacy changes are causing havoc. So unwarranted and a detriment to the customer - all Apple want to do is make life difficult for other tech firms.

I find this advert misleading - it implies we as a business sell on info about a customers email engagement, unhelpful fear mongering.

We don’t.
Nor does any other company.
Why!
It’s worthless data.
When you have millions of customers in your CRM program you aggregate the stats. It helps us understand as a channel how we are doing.

I look forward to Apple putting this ad up in traditional media so I can file a complaint with the ASA.
I too am in the marketing business. You may not sell info on email engagement, but you likely store that data and customize future email campaigns based on previous opens, whether that be the types of products the consumer would likely click on or the type of creative that may get them to click. The reality is many people, including myself, don't want to be marketed via email. If we want a product/service we know how to search it out ourselves. The fact that the job of "email marketer" exists is a reason by itself to have tools that "cause havoc" on email marketers. If you weren't storing that data for actionable purposes then it wouldn't cause you havoc, right?
 

oneMadRssn

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
5,996
14,061
Correct, they didn't propose scanning photos on your phone and selling the data on the open market, they proposed GIVING IT TO THE GOVERNMENT. Much more insidious and evil.
Yes it is insidious, but let's not lose sight of the fact that it is not evil to prevent child pornography.

Also, they're not giving over the photos - the photos remain encrypted. They're handing over the hashes - which really contain no data. Also, hashes are pretty infallible in terms of proof - there would not be any false positives.

The insidiousness of it is due to the fact Apple essentially delegated to the government the job of making a black-list of hashes. While the intent is to fill that list with hashes of known CP, there is no way to ensure that the government doesn't add other non-CP hashes to the list for purpose of investigating other non-CP matters. There is, inherent in this system, a woeful lack of oversight.

But evil, it is not.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,693
15,043
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Yes it is insidious, but let's not lose sight of the fact that it is not evil to prevent child pornography.

Also, they're not giving over the photos - the photos remain encrypted. They're handing over the hashes - which really contain no data. Also, hashes are pretty infallible in terms of proof - there would not be any false positives.

The insidiousness of it is due to the fact Apple essentially delegated to the government the job of making a black-list of hashes. While the intent is to fill that list with hashes of known CP, there is no way to ensure that the government doesn't add other non-CP hashes to the list for purpose of investigating other non-CP matters. There is, inherent in this system, a woeful lack of oversight.

But evil, it is not.

But to treat all customers like criminals in an attempt to be proactive?
Seriously, no.
 

julesme

macrumors 6502a
Oct 14, 2016
597
2,101
San Jose
I work in email marketing and the unnecessary Apple Mail privacy changes are causing havoc. So unwarranted and a detriment to the customer - all Apple want to do is make life difficult for other tech firms.

I find this advert misleading - it implies we as a business sell on info about a customers email engagement, unhelpful fear mongering.

We don’t.
Nor does any other company.
Why!
It’s worthless data.
When you have millions of customers in your CRM program you aggregate the stats. It helps us understand as a channel how we are doing.

I look forward to Apple putting this ad up in traditional media so I can file a complaint with the ASA.

Let me see if I understand - You have a problem with users being able to choose NOT to share data? As a citizen of a free country, this is frankly an absurd take.

As a mobile phone user, why shouldn’t I be able to choose which data I share?
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,693
15,043
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
I mean, I love Apple.
But after the whole CSAM situation...sounds a bit hypocritical.
This doesn't change the fact it's much better than google.

Is it?
Devs claim "we don't collect ..." but Apple does not verify these claims. Apple does "random" audits of some apps.
Google is now doing the same as of April 2022.

I'd put them on par for apps and privacy.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,693
15,043
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Let me see if I understand - You have a problem with users being able to choose NOT to share data? As a citizen of a free country, this is frankly an absurd take.

As a mobile phone user, why shouldn’t I be able to choose which data I share?

I personally spend way too much time and effort to stop the spam on cell number, text, and email.
 

CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,976
12,140
San Diego, CA, USA
What I’m afraid is that I have tons and tons of family pictures from vacations over the years and my kids got in pools and beaches obviously and I’m scare that CSAM or whatever the hell is call would easily mistaken it for child P…n.
Then you should educate yourself about how the mechanism works: it has a table of hashes of specific CSAM pictures that are already known to be circulating between pedophiles. If you have one or more of those pictures on your phone, it would throw up a red flag. So unless you've been been taking pics of your kids in the pool and uploading those pics to pedophile forums, you should have absolutely zero problems with this system mistakenly red flagging your pics. It's not looking at the content of the pics, it's looking for exact matches with pics already known to be bad.

(By the way, "CSAM" is the name used for the bad content itself, "Child Sexual Abuse Material", not for any of the various mechanisms that have been designed to detect it.)

They also have an entirely different mechanism, which can optionally be turned on, that looks at the content of pics sent to kids, using machine learning algorithms, and if, say, your 8yo daughter's iPad detects, say, a dick pic arriving in the Messages app, it'll pop up a message on her device only, saying something along the lines of, "this picture appears to show a sensitive part of the body, you may want to check with mom or dad before viewing it" - it doesn't report anything to the parents or to Apple, it doesn't keep the kid from viewing the picture, it just gives the kid an age-appropriate dialog box equivalent of the "NSFW" tag that adults might find on a pic or forum post.

Apple made a rather big PR mistake of initially talking about these two separate mechanisms on the same day, and people started conflating the two.

People also got upset that the CSAM detection mechanism was "scanning all their pictures" - putting aside that "computing a hash" is entirely different than what people think of when you say "scanning"... guess what, code in iOS is already scanning all your pictures (and has been, for years) in order to locate/tag human faces as well as pets/animals, objects, etc. - if you go into Photos and search for "dog" or "car", it'll show you pictures that contain dogs or cars. It can do that, at a reasonable speed, because is has already built an index, as the pictures came in.

And, again, the CSAM detection isn't "scanning" your pictures in that it isn't looking at an image and trying to figure out what it is (this is the part that people worry is going to incorrectly flag pics of their kids in the pool) - the CSAM detection only computes a hash (a checksum) for the picture and compares that hash against a table of hashes of already-known-to-be-circulating CSAM pics - your random pool pics are not going to be listed in that table (unless you've been uploading them to pedophile forums). People also complained "but it's doing the CSAM detection on my phone!" - well, yes, yes it is; Apple decided doing everything on your phone was better at preserving your privacy - the alternative would be to scan your pics once they're uploaded to iCloud (which would mean that your pics on iCloud could not be encrypted) - this is what many other services are already doing. And, for those saying, "well, but Apple shouldn't be doing any of this in the first place"... yeah, well, the government is working on making some sort of CSAM detection mandatory everywhere - so Apple devised the most privacy-protecting mechanism they could, to deal with that.
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,976
12,140
San Diego, CA, USA
It’s worthless data.
If it's worthless data, then losing access to it shouldn't bother you in the slightest. If you highly desire it, as seems to be the case, then it follows that is of value to you. Saying "it's worthless BUT YOU MUST GIVE IT TO ME" just makes you sound disingenuous. If it's truly worthless to you, then stop asking for it. If it's worth something to you, then make a deal with the customer you're taking it from - offer them something in exchange for the data, and see if they're willing to take you up on that.

Apple didn't turn off the tap, Apple just gave your customers control over the tap. Your customers turned off the tap. You seem to be unhappy that Apple gave your customers more control. I'm on Apple's side (and your customer's side) on this one.
 
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