Apple Intelligence Features Not Coming to European Union at Launch Due to DMA

[MilaM]

We've also clearly established that your opinion is that "iOS users" and "Android users" are two separate markets (despite the fact that the platforms do the same thing, and it is easy to switch between the two), and therefore iOS is a platform that should be regulated as if it had a monopoly. I disagree with that, but luckily for you, the EU takes your side.

Consumer choice is only one goal of this law. It's important, but not the sole purpose. Yes, you can switch to Android. But it's not as convenient as you describe it. When I switch platforms, I lose access to hundreds of Euros worth of apps and content. Nobody is going to reimburse me for that. The data is portable mostly, but purchases are not.

You also keep ignoring the other important goal of the DMA. It's supposed to increase competition ON each of the gatekeeper's platforms and give publishers more options. While users might have a choice, publishers have to use the platform that their customers chooses, or forgo a significant share of the market.

 

[ender78]

Even though I use an iPhone running iOS 18 DB2, I find my wife's Oppo Reno 5 running Android 13 (ColorOS) is better than the iPhone -- has more RAM, larger better AMOLED screen, practically no battery drain after 4 years (iPhone drains 8% every night without any 3rd party apps running), charges much much faster than the iPhone, takes better photos and videos. etc, etc. The newest Oppo is Reno 12, but she doesn't want to replace the Reno 5. I'd most probably buy an Oppo, when my Iphone dies.

Sounds like we have a greatly competitive market and you are able to make the choice of what you like better.

 

[chmania]

Sounds like we have a greatly competitive market and you are able to make the choice of what you like better.

We even have Huawei products. 😏

 

[ender78]

Social Media Content Moderation? Why not? We have to safeguard our children and grandchildren somehow.

We all need to be better mentors or parents and teach the little ***** that bullying is wrong. Be a bully, no social media for you for one week. Do it again and it's two .....

 

[chmania]

We all need to be better mentors or parents and teach the little ***** that bullying is wrong. Be a bully, no social media for you for one week. Do it again and it's two .....

All social media is made in the US, except maybe TikTok...

 

[ender78]

Basically, by launching the feature in iOS 18, they are offering access to the API, no way around it.

So are you saying that Tesla and Rivian must offer CarPlay and Android Auto or not be able to ship their own services? Why not the market sort that out instead of a legislator/beurocrat?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Notice how they are not currently planning on rolling out AI to the EU. There is no incentive for them to go to the hassle of getting it approved. This will be ongoing and more companies that are impacted by DMA will do it in the EU

...and other developers will be emboldened by the DMA to "go the hassle" and release their products services in the EU.

The EU countries will have less functionality and features than the rest of the world, but hey, you have third-party app stores.

...and interoperability requirements for "gatekeeping" operating systems.

These ensure that third-party developers...
- can pick up the slack
- can develop Artificial Intelligence features that integrate with mobile operating systems
- can release their products/services, without getting hamstrung by a gatekeeper that makes up b*llsh*t rules out of thin air, just so that they can stifle competition, self-preference their own product and get away with charging big bucks for their own mediocre service - because it's the only one allowed.

Observation that Apple is withholding their product to the EU for the time being is a short-term one, and it's short-sighted. And claims that Apple are the only company that can provide high-quality, privacy-respecting, let alone "the best" artificial intelligence products are naive.

👉 The market can play. If AI is so great and Apple so dumb to withhold their solutions from customers over the short term, long-term somebody will be able and will pick up the slack.


Now, can Apple withhold some features altogether that make a certain level of integration or feature set impossible to provide to iOS users? In simple terms, could Apple say:

"We won't ship AI features in the EU, so they won't get them from us.
And thereby, they can get them from no one".
No one will be able to ship without underlying OS support"?

👉 They could. It's a credible "threat".
For the short term.
And it's short-term thinking.

Longer term, I have decent hopes that someone else will be glad to pick up the slack and seize that opportunity. Could be Samsung or someone else. I'm sure they'd be glad to charge higher margins and sell more phones.

👉 So what type of thinking is ultimately going to prevail at and with Apple?
The short term greed and anticompetitiveness - or the long-term will to compete?
Time will tell.

You can laugh at me now. Hit the thumbs down button. Ridicule the EU and its companies for being unable to compete. Accuse legislators of being corrupt and singling out U.S. companies. Bring the whataboutery about competitors and their dubious privacy policies. If AI are so great and Apple drops the ball on it in the EU, they are likely to lose business long-term. And the features will come to mobile phones in the EU in some way (or platform) or another.

 

[ender78]

Pesky or not, those regulations are pro-consumer. The Big Tech's so-called AI would manipulate what the consumer might see or not.

They are more pro business than pro consumer. The DMA benefits Spotify and EPIC more than it benefits you. Why is the DMA not written such that a majority of the costs savings to the developer (in not need to pay Apples commission) need to be passed on to the consumer. I'd be a much bigger fan of it if that were the case.

When you have a government you can't trust.
When you have governments you can trust.

With the level of upheaval in the EU and the rest of Europe as well as elsewhere in the world, we have a lot of turmoil. That level of trust only lasts as long as the next election cycle at best.

 

[surferfb]

Consumer choice is only one goal of this law. It's important, but not the sole purpose. Yes, you can switch to Android. But it's not as convenient as you describe it. When I switch platforms, I lose access to hundreds of Euros worth of apps and content. Nobody is going to reimburse me for that. The data is portable mostly, but purchases are not.

You also keep ignoring the other important goal of the DMA. It's supposed to increase competition ON each of the gatekeeper's platforms and give publishers more options. While users might have a choice, publishers have to use the platform that their customers chooses, or forgo a significant share of the market.

If I switch from Playstation to Xbox I'd lose access to hundreds of dollars of games, many of which are available on both platforms. Hell, when I upgrade from PS5 to the future PS6 I am likely to lose access to hundreds of dollars of games. That doesn't mean that I think there is no competition in the video game market or the EU should come in and mandate cross compatibility (although to be fair, if the EU was actually concerned about competition vs. knocking big American tech companies down a peg, they would be regulating video games).

As to your second point, it's not that I'm ignoring the goal, I fundamentally disagree it is a goal that should be pursued. I don't think publishers have a right to be on Apple's platform if they don't want to follow Apple's rules. Apple isn't tricking anyone. Would I personally prefer Apple open up some of their rules? Absolutely! But it's their platform, they designed it, and I think they have the right to make and enforce rules as they see fit. If I think their rules are too draconian, I'll switch to Android. In my opinion, developers don't deserve access to the platform any more than I deserve access to Aldi stores to sell my homemade cookies. (And before you say it, yes, I know physical grocery stores and digital platforms are different - but that doesn't change my underlying belief that Apple shouldn't be forced to open up their platform to people who don't want to follow their rules.)

Because, when one of these alternate app stores has a data breach, or lets in an app that steals credentials, or whatever, the headlines isn't going to be "Sketchy App from EU-mandated third-party App Store Compromises User Data" but "iPhone Data Breach Compromises Apple User Data."

 

[ender78]

All social media is made in the US, except maybe TikTok...

But the users and the discourse are global. I don't see the origin of the platform making a difference. What actions those platform take to mitigate abuse is not nation dependent.

 

[AppliedMicro]

All social media is made in the US, except maybe TikTok...

Is that why they (the U.S.) are so keen to prop up their own companies by going after TikTok with regulation?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Because Android exists and if they make a superior product people will switch to Android. We've had people in this thread say "Apple not rolling out Apple Intelligence means they're going to get left behind in Europe because Europeans will choose other phone manufacturers." So why do you and others keep saying there will be no competition if Apple is allowed to continue to run the App Store and its platform the same way it has for the past 15 years?

There would be no competition on iOS - within that platform.
And considering there's not many alternative platforms all around to switch to, that's bad for consumers.
Just as an Android monoculture is.

History is absolutely littered with companies that were on top of the world one minute and then relegated to has-beens within 5 or 10 years.

There's a lot of specific evidence to the contrary in general-purpose operating systems used by consumers.

 

[surferfb]

There will be no competition on iOS - within that platform.
And considering there's not many alternative platforms all around to switch to, that's bad for consumers.
Just as an Android monoculture is.

I'd argue the EU is demanding iOS turn into Android - creating an Android monoculture.

And again - I do not feel that the iOS platform is at a level where it needs to be regulated when there is a competitor the size and quality of Android. Clearly we disagree on this and aren't going to change each other's minds. Lucky for you, the EU agrees with you. But you're going to have to live with EU getting the second-rate version of iOS because of its choices.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Why is the DMA not written such that a majority of the costs savings to the developer (in not need to pay Apples commission) need to be passed on to the consumer.

Great idea. Fantastic idea. 👍

Obviously, we couldn't let Apple themselves being the only one exempt from that.

"A majority of cost savings to the developer must be passed on" I'll get on board with that. 💪

👉 So let's look back (as so many of DMA detractors like to do, in reference to brick&mortar stores for software distribution, and the fact that Apple's commission has alway this or that for large developers):

What were the cost savings to Apple since their introduction of the App Store in 2008?
From, you know, cheaper internet hosting, cheaper internet bandwidth pricing, economies of scale.

I'm totally getting onboard with your suggestion that "costs savings" to developers (including Apple) need to be passed on! 🎉

If they could do 30% for in-app purchases in widely used apps at a fraction of prices and sales volume in 2008, surely Apple could to like... I don't know? 5% or 8% across the board today?

With their massively increased economies of scale, Apple's per-sale or per-dollar-of-revenue cost for App Store sales/In-app purchases must have decreased to a fraction of what it was in 2008. Time for that to be passed on!

 

[AppliedMicro]

I'd argue the EU is demanding iOS turn into Android - creating an Android monoculture.

No.

iOS is a lot more than its pricing and revenue model or exclusivity and one-stop shop.
It's a whole big operating system and platform of features, look and feel.

I find the notion very sad that iOS' only or major differentiating factor would be Apple limiting third-parties from what they can do.

I do not feel that the iOS platform is at a level where it needs to be regulated when there is a competitor the size and quality of Android.

When Apple is estimated to command more than half of every Euro spent on mobile apps today, and you still believe they aren't large enough.

👉 At which point would you, finally, agree that it needs to become regulated?

 

[MilaM]

As to your second point, it's not that I'm ignoring the goal, I fundamentally disagree it is a goal that should be pursued. I don't think publishers have a right to be on Apple's platform if they don't want to follow Apple's rules. Apple isn't tricking anyone.

Fine. Apparently, you don't have much sympathy for app publishers. The winner takes it all, so to speak. This mentality could possibly be one reason why the US has created so many mega-, or more appropriately, tera-corporations.

I'm glad, that we don't roll this way in the EU. Does our approach lead to worse outcomes for consumers, as you suggest? I don't know. Time will tell in this case.

 

[surferfb]

Fine. Apparently, you don't have much sympathy for app publishers. The winner takes it all, so to speak. This mentality could possibly be one reason why the US has created so many mega-, or more appropriately, tera-corporations.

I'm glad, that we don't roll this way in the EU. Does our approach lead to worse outcomes for consumers, as you suggest? I don't know. Time will tell in this case.

Why shouldn't app publishers follow the rules of the marketplaces they operate in?

Imagine a town where there are only two malls in town and no other stores. One says "We're family friendly, and so you can open almost any kind of store you want, but we do have some rules, for example we're not going to let any store that is in our mall sell sex toys or alcohol. You also have to have a store in the mall if you want to sell to our customers" The mall across town says "we'll let you sell whatever you want, we don't care. We'll even let people set up a store in the parking lot if they don't want to go into the mall, and if they do that, we won't even charge them!" Even though it's not as nice, the mall across town gets 70% of the customers, and everyone in town knows that if you want to buy/sell sex toys or alcohol, you need to go to the mall across town. Because the family friendly mall is nicer, it does a lot more business, even with fewer customers (In fact, many go to the mall specifically because it is family friendly and has these rules.) So they make more than 50% of the money spent at stores in town. But, if buying booze or sex toys is important enough to you, you know you can go to the other mall.

I don't see why the correct answer is the town mayor coming in and saying "I've heard from my campaign donors G-Spotify and Epic Biermarkt, and I think they deserve to be able to sell alcohol and sex toys to the customers in the nicer mall because the people in the nicer mall spend more money." The mall owner paid to build the mall, and yes, the mall is a destination because of all the stores in the mall, but it's their mall, they made the rules, and everyone knew that going in.

 

[chmania]

Why shouldn't app publishers follow the rules of the marketplaces they operate in?

The marketplace in this matter is the EU, not the US. The rules are for the EU, not for the US.

 

[MilaM]

I don't see why the correct answer is the town mayor coming in and saying "I've heard from my campaign donors G-Spotify and Epic Biermarkt, and I think they deserve to be able to sell alcohol and sex toys to the customers in the nicer mall because the people in the nicer mall spend more money."

Because in the real world, you can open a third shop next to one of the exisitng ones, and COMPETE with the other stores. Or you as the customer can order stuff online or drive to the next town.

And in the real world, shop owners don't demand from their customer to sign away the right to shop in any other store when they are in town.

On phones, there is only one store, so effectively there is no competition for app store terms.

 

[surferfb]

The marketplace in this matter is the EU, not the US. The rules are for the EU, not for the US.

The marketplace that we are talking about here is the iOS Platform. I am not talking about the wider European market, because the DMA rules do not apply to that market as a whole.

I'm not arguing that Apple shouldn't follow the rules of any marketplace they operate in. Apple should 100% adhere to the DMA as it was passed into law. If they disagree with the EU's interpretation of that law, they can fight about it in court, but comply when the court makes its decision. If they think that on the whole, the rules are too onerous to comply with, they should put their money where their mouth is and leave the market (like Google did in China - to be clear, I don't think Apple will do this).

My entire point with all my posts in this thread is that people here are screaming "Apple is throwing a temper tantrum because they're upset about App Store revenue" do not understanding the DMA is more than just a law about alternate app stores and side loading, but is in fact, to quote Ben Thompson, an attack at the ability of gatekeepers to differentiate by integration, which is at the core of Apple's business model. Seriously please read the text of the law. The App Store and steering stuff is just a tiny part of it.

If Apple thinks they have to delay a feature in the EU because of the DMA, then they're allowed to say "we'd love to introduce it but we can't right now" If the EU wants to come back and say "oh no, we didn't mean that, it's allowed" then great. If Apple releases as a part of the next iOS after they've worked out whatever issues they have, then great.

But don't be surprised when Apple decides "Apple Intelligence is the kind of feature that sets us apart, why our customers love us, and, oh by the way we have significant privacy and security concerns about allowing others access to this data, so, no we're not going to let literally whoever asks us have permission to plug their AI into everything that happens on your phone." That's also their right.

And with that, I'm done with this thread - we're just arguing in circles here and none of us are going to change each other's minds. I'll leave you with my hope that I truly am wrong and you all are right and the DMA is actually better for consumers, increases competition, etc. That won't change my opinion about the morality of forcing Apple to do so with a minority market share, but at least good will come out of it.

 

[chmania]

The marketplace that we are talking about here is the iOS Platform. I am not talking about the wider European market, because the DMA rules do not apply to that market as a whole.

Whatever the OS platform, whatever the manufacturer, the marketplace is the EU. The DMA rules are for the EU market, not for the whole Europe. Only within those 27 countries.

 

[spazzcat]

...and other developers will be emboldened by the DMA to "go the hassle" and release their products services in the EU.

...

This remains to be seen as its mostly speculation on your part.

 

[spazzcat]

Because in the real world, you can open a third shop next to one of the exisitng ones, and COMPETE with the other stores. Or you as the customer can order stuff online or drive to the next town.

And in the real world, shop owners don't demand from their customer to sign away the right to shop in any other store when they are in town.

On phones, there is only one store, so effectively there is no competition for app store terms.

Where this falls apart is iOS has always been a closed system. You knew it was the closed system when you bought into it there was never any expectation to have a mall on your phone.

 

[Abazigal]

European Commission Launches Investigation Against Microsoft for Integrating Teams With Office

Link to: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_3446

daringfireball.net

Well said, Mr Gruber. Very well said.

 

[koil]

I also think Apple has a lot of blame here, and even though I disagree with forcing them to do so, I think it would have been in their own interest to open up the App Store and steering stuff years ago; my guess is the regulations wouldn't be so draconian now had they done so.

Full agreement here.

I also think if Nokia was still a major player in the space, or there was a big European tech company like Google or Microsoft, the DMA wouldn't exist at all, but that's a whole other story.

It depends on what your definition of a major player is. If Nokia was just another Android manufacturer then the DMA would still exist probably, and Nokia would likely be a gatekeeper. If Symbian was still a thing, and Nokia was popular while powered by it, then who knows.

So are you saying that Tesla and Rivian must offer CarPlay and Android Auto or not be able to ship their own services? Why not the market sort that out instead of a legislator/beurocrat?

This is possibly the dumbest take I've seen in this thread so far.

First, my argument was that I don't think Apple is required by the DMA to do anything with regards to iPhone Mirroring, SharePlay and Apple Intelligence probably have some DMA relevance, but I have no idea how you go from there to Tesla/Rivian somehow becoming gatekeepers, even through Rivian literally doesn't exist in the EU, and Tesla having sold less than 5M cars to date when the threshold for being a gatekeeper is 45M users in the EU. 🤡