Yeah true, I’ve done the same in the past. I feel like the AS Macs are going to have a locked down bootloader (like iOS). But I’d love to be wrong on that.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Invites Developers to Get One-on-One Guidance From Engineers Ahead of Apple Silicon Mac Launch
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I’m not sure. I don’t think we’ll be getting anything to high end, like Mac Pro or highend imac or MacBook Pro even, but I think we’ll get a redesigned MacBook/MacBook Air level machine and as much of the ‘cool’ tech they can throw at it, faceID included. They’ll want to impress.
Last edited:
Yes, I know we can install Windows without macOS or Bootcamp loaded on an Intel-based Mac. The point of our discussion is that it won't be possible to install Windows on Apple Silicon Macs at all, even if the bootloader isn't locked.
Is bootcamp not Apple embracing a competitors os on their hardware? Ms worked with Apple on it 15 years ago, why wouldn’t they now when Apple controls 4x the market now.
Maybe Apple itself doesn't need to support ARM Windows because MS and VMWare (or Parallels) are already working on a licensed VM solution for running on Apple Silicon Big Sur.
...apart from the early days when you needed a new firmware module, bootloader and updated Disk Utility that weren't initially part of MacOS (although some clever hackers managed to lash together an open source alternative before BootCamp appeared) - BootCamp has always mainly been a helper tool and a collection of drivers rather than something fundamental needed to make Windows run.... for a given definition of "run" depending on generic or third party drivers. Whether it was useful without proprietary Apple drivers that came with BootCamp or whether you needed to prepare custom install media to get the MS installer to work varied as Mac hardware, Windows and firmware evolved.
I certainly remember installing Windows XP on my old Mac Pro 1,1 by just sticking in a blank HD and feeding it a Windows installation DVD - although once it was up and running the next step was always to install the drivers supplied by BootCamp - but may of those were just the third-party Windows drivers you could hunt down on the web anyway.
Apple have said that the "security level" will be settable on a per-OS basis. On the other hand, they've also clearly said that they're not going to support "direct booting of alternative operating systems" rather than virtualisation - and all the talk of the bootloader has been in the context of letting developers run future unsigned versions of MacOS, MacOS system recovery etc. so I don't think it's clear from that whether or not it will be possible to boot any old unsigned operating system.
Even if Apple don't actively block booting alternative operating systems, it's a question of whether any alternative operating systems will exist or be able to run usefully on Apple Silicon without support from Apple in the form of drivers for ASi-based functions or even OS developer details for the firmware and bootloader.
Anyway, the only version of Windows that will run is Win 10 for ARM - and even that would require MS and Apple to customise it/add drivers for Apple Silicon - which isn't exactly getting a rapturous reception from Windows users who just want to run their x86 software. It seems likely that there will eventually be a way of running Windows 10 ARM - but under virtualisation, which doesn't have to depend on the guest OS directly driving ASi graphics, disc controllers etc.
Wouldn't bet against someone hacking together a direct-boot Linux, but whether that would be stable or genuinely usable without Apple support is another matter.
It's already been *rumored* that the event will take place on the 17th. Apple has *not* confirmed this.
When you next fly or book a restaurant, concert, holiday, taxi etc. would you prefer for it to be confirmed (100% barring incidents) or take an 85% chance of getting what you expect?
Confirmed means a public commitment from the organizer.
Well, they are actually both kinda right, as are you.
1) There won't be Bootcamp on Apple Silicon - confirmed by Apple
2) There won't be *inital* support for running emulated Windows x86 or Windows ARM VMs on Apple Silicon.
3) Bootcamp will still work on Intel Macs running Big Sur
4) Your point: installation of other OSes, or dual boot without Bootcamp should still work in Big Sur.
5) Dual Boot does not appear to be supported on Apple Silicon
This is certainly possible, and it would interesting to know if it is true. The question remains whether they are working on an emulator (like QEMU & Rosetta) or just virtualization. The latter is more likely in the first instance, so if you want to run x86 Windows you would run a Windows on ARM VM and then emulate the x86 Windows apps within this. Doesn't sound like a performant solution
They did embrace it to a certain extent but I don't think it required Apple to cooperate with Microsoft to do it, they just provided software that provided the drivers for Apple hardware. Since Windows for ARM requires the OEM, in this case it would be Apple, to get a license for ARM Windows and Microsoft would want Apple to ship new Macs with Windows preinstalled I'm sure. The current BootCamp just uses an off the shelf copy of Windows that the end user can get directly from Microsoft. Microsoft may change that and open the door for ARM BootCamp but I don't think Apple will work with Microsoft, at least with installing Windows on a Mac.
Hoping for the same. I have a 16" nicely spec'd machine but that's my powerhouse. I want a MacBook Air w/ Apple Silicon to replace my 2015 MacBook Pro that I use for my day to day tasks and also to play with new technology.
Big Sur does support Bootcamp/Windows. It even got a new icon!
I agree. Nothing high end this year. My guessing about no body change is based on an article that was linked in the Silicon section of this site. The article writer (think it is Esquire) said there would be no body changes this year. True or not I have no idea. I hope I'm wrong. But I'm still guessing that it'll just be the new processors.
I guess we'll find out in about 3 weeks. This is harder than waiting for Chrimbo!
Same here. No MBP16 or iMac 27" replacements until mid/late next year - this will give Apple time to get an integrated GPU solution up to the standard of at least the mid-range AMD offerings.
The fact we haven't seen any leaks about new physical designs might indicate that the first Apple Silicon Mac will just be renewed internals, but I do think that this would lead to confusion for consumers, unless Apple slaps an "Apple Silicon Inside" sticker on it
1. Not my point.
2. As above.
3. I didn't claim otherwise
4. Read my post, I said you can install other OSes without macOS/OS X/Bootcamp, you can install Windows/Linux on a blank HDD/SSD without any other OS.
5. Not my point.
Last edited:
I get the impression that Mac releases aren't so prone to "leaks" about physical design as iDevices - which often seem to come from case & accessory makers. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if what we see first is the current MacBook Air chassis with an ASi processor, and the re-designs have to wait for mini/micro-LED displays.
I think the issue was not that your statement was wrong (it wasn't), but that it was a red herring in a discussion about Apple Silicon.
QEMU is cross-platform (at least in it's most basic, pure software emulation, mode), open source and just needs a regular 'consumer' Windows image, so it's quite likely that it will turn up on ASi Macs: A QEMU-based emulator - UTM - is already up and running on iPad (albeit only with a developer account or jailbreak, it's not App Store-compliant). The website describes some of the limitations imposed by the iPad that rule out QEMUs more efficient modes of operation - some of which might be soluble under MacOS running on Mac-grade Apple Silicon. Also, there's actually be a use for it on a Mac so there's be more of a business case.
Running individual apps using Windows' own x86 emulation under native ARM Windows ought to be a lot better than running the entire OS under emulation. Also, the lukewarm reports of emulated x86 Windows apps on WoA are based on the somewhat so-so processor in the MS Surface X which will (rumour has it) have it's clock well and truly cleaned by Apple Silicon.
OTOH there's been some speculation here about whether or not MS's 32-bit x86 emulation will work on 64-bit-only Apple Silicon - I'm not sure if anybody has provided a definitive answer to that.
Kinda irrelevant: Direct-booting Windows for ARM won't be useful without bare-metal Windows drivers for Apple Silicon disc controllers, graphics etc. and an installer that works with ASi firmware. To do that "officially" would likely require support from Apple, who have said that they're not going to support direct booting. To do it "unofficially" (I'm not betting against the ingenuity of hackers when it comes to reverse-engineering etc.*) probably wouldn't be licensed by Microsoft.
Running ARM Windows under virtualisation doesn't require the OS to have drivers etc. for the actual hardware/firmware, as the hypervisor can always emulate supported hardware and translate it to the appropriate MacOS calls. It still needs a licensing agreement from Microsoft, but odds are that is already being thrashed out. My guess would be a joint venture between Microsoft and a Well Known Purveyor of Mac Virtualisation Software consisting of a Windows licence bundled with and locked to a Hypervisor.
Anyhow - virtualised Windows is probably what most people want, to run those one or two awkward Apps that have no MacOS equivalent without having to re-boot, inefficiently partition the disc and faff about with AFS-for-Windows or NTFS-for-Mac to share files. I can't imagine any ASi-based Windows solution will be good enough for serious 3D gaming or pro creative work to justify using a dual boot system. I wouldn't even bet that Windows on ARM has a future - the Windows market is so anchored to backwards compatibility for corporate customers.
* if you google, you'll find instructions for ARM Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi 4. using a developer's preview of Windows-for-ARM of unexplained provenance. I couldn't find how any firmware/driver problems were resolved but then it's quite possible that MS are developing drivers for the Broadcomm hardware used by the RasPi, there are also open-source Linux drivers around, the RasPi uses emerging open standards for ARM firmware (and is a de-facto open standard itself) plus there is already an official release of "Windows 10 IoT Core" for it. Windows for Apple Silicon won't necessarily be like that.
@justperry , maybe not the points you raised personally, but in answer to questions raised by others on this topic.
Macrumors nested quotes are not working, so it’s a mess trying to follow post/response threads!
Welp... me, you and Jon Prosser were all wrong! Hope you guys never finalized that bet
lol, at least it's happening, that's all I care about. The sooner the better, so it's a result!Welp... me, you and Jon Prosser were all wrong! Hope you guys never finalized that bet