Apple, iPod, and CD Copy Protection

[iChan]

this might be a bit off-topic, but... except for apple, it seems as though Microsoft will have already dominated nearly all forms of digital content.

It is a scary thought to have Microsoft controlling almost all content that travels through cyberspace and beyond...

I remember being a windows XP user and ripping all my (150+) CD's, only to realise halfway through the process that they were all .WMA files!!! it took almost 2 days to get that far... still, I dumped them all and started again, ripping them into MP3 files... that is how much I hate MS's file formats.

all my new Rips are AAC.

I don't know how Apple licensing anything to MacroVision or SunnCom is going affect anything, but anything that disrupts the MS hegemony will make me feel more at ease...

 

[winmacguy]

The "great opportunity" for Apple here might very well be to turn these guys down. SunnComm and Macrovision have a greatly reduced market for their copy-protected CDs if they don't work with iPods, so that puts Apple in the position of power here, not them. Unless Apple can make as much per song as they can through their music store, there is no sense in going along with this for them. Besides, Apple could perhaps help kill off the market for copy protected CDs if they don't support them and that would do us all a big favor.

In a nutshell, if it requires DRM and it must play on an iPod, then the iTMS is already there, so who needs copy protected CDs to be compatible? I'm predicting they'll just say no to SunnComm and Macrovision when it's all said and done.

For all the comments I read over at MDN I would have to agree with the above point of view.

I dont want ANY copy protection on CDs that I buy. Unfortunatley we dont have iTMS in New Zealand yet (not really a big deal I just buy my cheap CDs from discount CD stores with no limit on choice)

I think the DRM that Apple uses from the iTMS is sufficient for limiting choice for copying and besides it would only be a matter of hours of its release that any copy protection being applied to CDs was cracked anyway which would amount to a big waste of time.

 

[mojohanna]

I agree with previous posts. License it Apple. Tell Microsoft to HOBB (Honk on BoBo)!!!!!

 

[virividox]

Do IT APPLE DO IT this is your chance to reinforce the dominant position

 

[jwhitnah]

Current schemes involved providing protected Windows Media Audio files along side the copy protected tracks. While this allows Windows users to load the songs on their PCs, it prevents their use on the iPod - which does not support WMA files.

A monor point. I may have this wrong but iTunes converts WMA to AAC/mp3 just fine. Isn't it the DRM hooked to the WMA that prevents its use on an iPod?

 

[Abstract]

I found this to be the case, too. I read on the forums somewhere that someone couldn't rip the On and On album from Jack Johnson. DRM issues were discussed a bit. I bought it some time ago and had not brought it in to the house yet and, thus, had not ripped it to my Mac. Well, upon insertion iTunes crashed. But, when I reopened iTunes, the CD names came up care of the CDDB and it ripped without a problem. Though, now that I write this, I'm not sure if I tried playing a track to verify integrity.

That was I, and I was pissed.

I want everything to stay the way it is. I don't want to allow copy-protection. I still want to be able to rip songs as MP3 since they don't have DRM and work on any music player. I doubt this new format would allow me to rip songs as mp3's because they wouldn't have DRM control of your usage.

 

[manu chao]

A monor point. I may have this wrong but iTunes converts WMA to AAC/mp3 just fine. Isn't it the DRM hooked to the WMA that prevents its use on an iPod?

No, not at all. The fact that you can get a car with a car alarm doesn't mean that all cars have a car alarm. You can have a WMA file with DRM or without, as you can have an AAC file with DRM (in this case Fairplay) or without. And iTunes (naturally) can only convert non-DRM-protected WMA files.

 

[Highland]

Anything that legitimizes these stupid copy-protected CDs is bad, IMO. Myself, I would prefer to see these CDs remain incompatible with the iPod, so that people would have fewer reasons to buy them in the first place.

This will only make it more likely that these stupid copy-protection schemes will continue, furthering the problems such as buying CDs that don't even work in certain older CD players, and so forth.

Sorry, but under the fair use laws, I should have the right to make copies of my CDs for myself. Anything that gets in the way of that is wrong. I say, don't help these *******s out.

YES YES YES YES YES!!!

I'm glad someone can see the light!

I am not against Apple licensing FairPlay, but those CDs breach the Red Book CD standard, and don't work on all players. This takes away rights to use music that has been legitimately paid for. In the end this hurts the users that are doing the right thing (P2P users obviously wouldn't have any restrictions).

Also, ANYTHING can be copied, so I don't know who they think they're fooling. I have a CD player with digital out. I have an audio interface with digital in. Quite simple really.

MORE copy protection IS NOT THE WAY!

I purchase loads of music, and I have no problem returning a CD like these as 'faulty'. Everyone else should do the same.

 

[Highland]

No, not at all. The fact that you can get a car with a car alarm doesn't mean that all cars have a car alarm. You can have a WMA file with DRM or without, as you can have an AAC file with DRM (in this case Fairplay) or without. And iTunes (naturally) can only convert non-DRM-protected WMA files.

So, do you think that the 'software embedded on the CD' will create UNprotected WMAs? I don't think so. AAC and FairPlay is going to be the only way it'll work (short of Apple adding protected WMA, or another format to iTunes).

Maybe Apple don't want to license FairPlay, because that would make it easier to crack (via more access to information).

 

[7on]

Every protected CD I tried acted as a normal CD on my mac, incl. ripping in iTunes.
If Apple makes a deal with them, maybe the protections will work on mac then.

Copy-protection has only hindered Mac users in that older Macs can't read some of the newer Copy-protected CDs.

And I could care less in what they do. I'll always be able to de-DRM my music. As long as you can hear the music, it can be re-recorded w/o DRM. To anyone with complaints of quality, Why are you even buying CDs? Vinyl should be your cup of tea.

I for one hope Apple doesn't license it. Make the company a "forbidden fruit" if you will.

 

[Highland]

Copy-protection has only hindered Mac users in that older Macs can't read some of the newer Copy-protected CDs.

Not true at all. My experience has been that it doesn't matter how new/old a CD drive is... some can read the CDs, some can't. I had a CD that I couldn't read on my work MDD 1.25 Dual G4 (or on the second Pioneer 106 DVD burner), but a friend could read on an old 450mhz Sawtooth G4.

To anyone with complaints of quality, Why are you even buying CDs? Vinyl should be your cup of tea.

That's just crazy (and not really worth a response).

Also, it's not like you can buy the same music on vinyl, or use it easily with an iPod.

 

[jwhitnah]

Same thing?

No, not at all. The fact that you can get a car with a car alarm doesn't mean that all cars have a car alarm. You can have a WMA file with DRM or without, as you can have an AAC file with DRM (in this case Fairplay) or without. And iTunes (naturally) can only convert non-DRM-protected WMA files.

Except for the car alarm analogy, how is that different from what I wrote? It just seemed to me many people say wma or aac when they really mean WMA with DRM or AAC with Fairplay (the only DRM I'm familiar with for AAC right now). Technically, you can't play WMA on an iPod, but *cough* a friend of mine downloads plenty of WMA's on P2P and converts them for use on his iPod. He's probably not the only iPod owner who has never used iTMS.

 

[weldon]

Apple obviously supports copy-protection for music and doesn't support file-sharing piracy. I'd like to see them get a piece of the action for copy-protected music in any form.

That said, I want to be able to get high bitrate files from CD's. That's why I buy the CD instead of just downloading from iTMS. One low-tech solution would be a one-time license key included in the CD that you could use in iTMS to register your iTMS account as an owner of the CD. You could download the entire CD in 128kbps, 192kbps, or Apple Lossless. The record companies would reimburse Apple a one-time fee for setting up the album (and setting up the license keys) and then recurring fees based on the number of downloads (bandwidth, customer service, management, etc.). This introduces a ton of people to Apple, iTMS, AAC, etc. It might also allow iTMS to sell the high bitrate tracks as download only to people that didn't buy the CD.

 

[Highland]

The bottom line...

This form of copy protection can not be played on all CD players.

It breaks the Red Book standard.

It's not good for paying consumers.

It means you lose you're legal right for 'space shifting' (if the protection works).


Wasn't there a court case in France where EMI CDs with protection were considered faulty (setting a precedent for similar cases in France)?

As a music producer, I am all for iTMS (I just wish it was available in Australia), and very against P2P networks. However, CD protection is total BS--it cripples many of the devices that should be able to play them. You just can't **** your PAYING fans around like that.

Apple should not support this crap (and I don't think they will license FairPlay).

 

[Porchland]

The only way I see Apple saying no is so perverse that I will go crazy if they reject this offer. But the scenario is that Apple says no since they want the only way to get that type of music onto iPods is to buy it from the iTMS, not getting DRM'd files from the CD itself.

Although that would be incredibly stupid. License it Apple!!!

Yeah, it's sort of a paradigm thing. Are CDs going to continue to be the dominant model with a side of downloads, or are CDs going the way of the 8-track?

I suspect it's a little of both -- at least for the foreseeable future. Downloads will continue to take marketshare from shrink-wrap sales, but I don't think CDs as a business model will be displaced at the same rate tapes displaced 8-tracks or CDs displaced tapes. PCs are never going to have the market penetration of CD players, so there's going to be a need in the market for downloads and CDs.

Personally, I'd rather see iTMS become the dominant model, but Fairplay, ultimately, is bigger than iTMS in a market sense.

I applaud Apple for the effort. Grudgingly.

 

[Kagetenshi]

Can we stop calling these things "copy protected CDs"? Music CDs are already compatible with the iPod. Copy protected disks pretending to be CDs cause problems with all kinds of equipment and Apple should not be encouraging their distribution. I hope they'll have the good sense to say no.

Is it a disc? Yes. Is it compact? Yes. Therefore it is a CD, or a Compact Disc. It may not be an Audio CD, as that means something specific, but it most certainly is a CD.

Also, can we stop calling CDs "disks"? They have no case, and are thus discs.

~J

 

[deejemon]

*

 

[JFreak]

i have a harman/kardon hifi system that happens to reject cd-r discs altogether. that's a copy protection scheme i'm fine with - i don't even want to be able to play cd-r discs because they are not the original ones i like to have.

but...

when i buy an original cd that i have a legal right to listen to, i will return it to the store if that original cd will not work in any cd players out there - in other words, if it's not a red-book cd, it will be boycotted. there is no quarantee that the disc will play in any given cd player if it's not a red-book cd, and any kind of copy-protection that was not available in the 80's when the red-book was specified, will break the red-book standard. should be very understandable.

apple knows this and steve jobs is a wise man. he will not license.

 

[cube]

No

Is it a disc? Yes. Is it compact? Yes. Therefore it is a CD, or a Compact Disc. It may not be an Audio CD, as that means something specific, but it most certainly is a CD.

Also, can we stop calling CDs "disks"? They have no case, and are thus discs.

~J

It is definitely not a CD. It doesn't conform to the standards. Ask Phillips.

 

[Loge]

DRM on itms is acceptable to many because it is clear and consistent - you know exactly what you can do with the files. Attempts to protect CDs are neither; you buy one of these, you have little idea what it will play on, now or in the future. I can't see why Apple would want to be associated with this mess; their resources would be better targeted improving itms (geographical spread, size of catalogue etc).

 

[Highland]

when i buy an original cd that i have a legal right to listen to, i will return it to the store if that original cd will not work in any cd players out there - in other words, if it's not a red-book cd, it will be boycotted.

I know I'm just repeating myself, but I couldn't agree more with you!

I don't understand why Apple would want to be any part of this.

The big issue here is that most stores have a no return policy on opened CDs. If you buy it and you can't play it... TOO BAD! I really can't believe label managers think this is good for them and their labels. As soon as iTMS is available in Aus AND I can download Apple Lossless, I think I'll be forgetting about CDs forever (if only to send a clear message to the labels).

BTW : Red Book audio CDs *do* contain copy protection, it just didn't really do anything (it was a flag for each track... ie. the CDROM/player knows that you shouldn't copy it, but there's nothing actually stopping you!)

 

[SiliconAddict]

Is it a disc? Yes. Is it compact? Yes. Therefore it is a CD, or a Compact Disc. It may not be an Audio CD, as that means something specific, but it most certainly is a CD.

Also, can we stop calling CDs "disks"? They have no case, and are thus discs.

~J

Yes and no. Go find a CD or a CD case. On it somewhere, more recent CD's don't have this which I will explain why in a sec, you will find the CD logo that is labeled Compact Disk Digital Audio. This logo means it conforms to the Redbook digital audio standard. See: RedBook (Audio CD Standard)
The standards body that created this has been rumbling that companies that create DRMed music should not be using the logo on their media since the standard was not established with any DRM in mind. This is why many vendors have stopped carrying the logo. CD obviously is the name of the media not what is contained on the media (Is a Mac OS disk a CD or not?!) But the industry is running a fine line between what is considered in the public mind a CD and what isn't. You have to admit to the average user on the street when you say CD...the first thought is the thing that pops into any CD player on the market for obvious reasons. It hasn't happened yet but I can guarantee you that in the next few years lawsuits against labels that aren't labeling their CD's with approp warnings that this thing will NOT work in some CD players will become more commonplace.

 

[SiliconAddict]

I have mixed feeling on this issue. On one hand I want Apple to give MS a run for their money. But on the other its like making a deal with the Devil. No real good can come out of this for the consumer who doesn’t have an iPod. And then there is the question on those who aren’t running Windows or OS X. Future competition in the OS market isn’t going to be Windows vs OS X. Its going to be Windows vs. Linux. So what happen to fair competition when Linux users are left out in the cold? I just don’t know.

 

[Nermal]

Can we stop calling these things "copy protected CDs"? Music CDs are already compatible with the iPod. Copy protected disks pretending to be CDs cause problems with all kinds of equipment and Apple should not be encouraging their distribution. I hope they'll have the good sense to say no.

My copy of Red Hot Chili Peppers' Greatest Hits says on the front:

The ultimate collection of Chili peppers songs and videos
On CD-14 favourites
Plus 2 brand new songs
& DVD-16 videos, plus band commentary on each video

On the back, it also refers to it being a CD. Yet it doesn't have the CD logo, and is "copy controlled". It rips perfectly in iTunes though.

 

[garybUK]

If a shop sells you a DRM'd disk under the pretence that it is a CD or Compact Disk (i.e. Advertised as a CD etc.), as stated a redbook standard by Philips & Sony, then you can demand your money back if it doesn't work on some CD Players.

This is simple trading standards and assume applies to other countrys ??

Personally, i may look at investing in a decent turntable and having a look at that vynil floor in the Virgin Megastore / HMV in manchester