Apple Launches 2018 MacBook Pros: 8th Gen Core, Up to 32GB of RAM, Third-Gen Keyboard, Quad-Core on 13-Inch and More

[toke lahti]

The reality is that many users don’t use any ports when they are on the go. They’re on a plane, at a hotel, in a conference room, at school maybe, at a coffee shop, whatever—and they simply don’t need to plug in peripherals. They use the MBP at work and home, and just plug in one cable when moving between them. It’s incredibly convenient.

If you need to plug something in, usually a USB-C to USB-A cable is sufficient, or maybe a USB-C to HDMI cable. Those that actually use the MBP don’t seem to have near the difficulty using it that those who don’t imagine it to be.

In any case, Apple isn’t going to change back to the older, thicker MBP form factor and the older ports. Users can either move on with the modern technology, buy the older models, or leave the platform altogether and get a PC that still gives them the ports they want.

I’d like to have a mac to my desktop with same internals than 15”er has (now that 15”er has dp 1.4), but it has a big fan so it wouldn’t throttle down after rendering for 2 minutes. And maybe upgradeable storage when ssd dies...

 

[Detnator]

I’d like to have a mac to my desktop with same internals than 15”er has (now that 15”er has dp 1.4), but it has a big fan so it wouldn’t throttle down after rendering for 2 minutes. And maybe upgradeable storage when ssd dies...

https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/

just sayin'

Yes, I agree. My 2017 maxed out MBP gets painfully slow when i hit it with too much. I don't know if this is what the throttling is, but a thing called kernel task, starts chewing up CPU. I was told it's actually not doing anything other than stopping anything else from doing much because that's the software way of slowing things down so it doesn't overheat. When this happens, I put the MBP on a large ice pack, then within a minute or so that kernel task goes away and things speed up again.

That's my solution for overheating issues now. It seems to work. Not much good on the go though. Hmmm... maybe there's a market for some kind mobile attachment that can do this - a Thunderbolt 3 dock that looks something like this: https://www.owcdigital.com/dec with more ports, some extra SSD and battery maybe, plus a compartment for sliding in custom fitted ice packs. lol.

I really want the power of the new 2018 i9 MBP. If it's there (that power) except for overheating issues, then at least on my desk with ice packs, maybe I can have near iMac Pro (low end) speeds in a laptop.

 

[Detnator]

I actually appreciate it, so thank you. It's good to get this discussion going, especially as I know Apple is actively reading this forum. I don't know if they'll see this particular thread, but it really allows both of us to get our points across in a meaningful way, and that's important.

And besides, you're debating constructively, which is good.

Fair enough. And I did the same thing again... this is now possibly my longest post anywhere ever. lol...

And I repeatedly said the future just isn't arriving, and it isn't going to. The reason is that USB-C simply does not have any great advantage over USB-A. I guess it's reversible, so that's nice, but other than that it's really no better or worse at all, so why bother?

We might just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one.

Firstly, your statement "it isn't arriving" ignores the part where I said give it another 2-3 years. And ignores the fact that there are a lot more USB-C devices on the market now than there were 2 years ago. It's coming. Yes, it is. At least it certainly is in the USA. Maybe not where you are (Denmark?).

Secondly, it is better. It just is. It's smaller (USB-A on a phone, or ultraportable? no. USB-C on a phone or ultraportable? yes). And it's reversible, and it just goes in a lot more easily. Doesn't sound like a big deal (you kinda shrugged that off) and in theory it isn't, but in practice, at least for some of us (maybe not you) this is a big deal. As I say, maybe not you, but please account for the possibility that for at least some of us, this is an improvement.

And thirdly, the USB-C port is more than just USB. That port is everything now. No I don't mean physically but it can carry every protocol and so we come back to my point of now I have four thunderbolt ports, four USB ports, and effectively four of everything else. Again, to some people (including me) not to you perhaps, but to me and others, that is another big deal.

I accept it if you don't agree, but you have to accept that to some people, that functionality you just shrugged off does make a significant difference to some of us.

This is quite unlike USB when it came out. USB had the significant advantage of being cheap and being hotswappable, as well as not being configuration hell, unlike Serial and Parallel which needed A LOT of setup to even connect because there were so many competing incompatible standards and the ports couldn't tell one another apart on their own. It was hell. The only alternative hotswappable port at the time was Firewire, which was technically superior, but also too expensive.

By contrast, USB-A works just fine.

Well again we might have to respectfully agree to disagree. To me, the current state is hell too. I described that in my previous post. A million different ports that all do different things and mostly aren't compatible with each other - except where sometimes you can use dongles to make them that way (eg. Thunderbolt 2 to Ethernet, or USB3).

Price? Well, where USB-C is expensive is when it's Thunderbolt 3. The USB-C port isn't significantly more expensive if it's only carrying the same signal as USB-A 3.1 etc. So yes, the ports in the MacBook Pro are more expensive, but there's only two more TB3 ports than there were TB2 ports in the old one, and those two extra TB3 ports aren't significantly more expensive than everything else that used to be in the old MBP when you combine them all. But with your new 2018 MBP, you don't have to buy TB peripherals. All your USB peripherals work just fine with USB-C if you spend $5-10 replacing your USB-A to <whatever> cables with USB-C to <whatever> cables. Replace your cables and you don't need dongles.

Well they actually did lose the sysadmin market due to their Ethernet decision. I used to see sysadmins all over the place using MacBooks, but those days are definitely over.

Firewire is a fair point, except Firewire is nowhere near as ubiquitous as USB. It's much easier to replace, essentially because it failed to catch in exactly the same way and for exactly the same reason as Thunderbolt 3 is.

Firewire and thunderbolt can hardly be described as "didn't catch on". That's like saying BMWs didn't catch on. Sure, most of the worlds' vehicles are hyundais, toyotas, or whatever else, but there is most definitely a market for BMWs and Mercedes, and not just for elitist pricks that like a badge. Those cars simply do perform better and to some people that's worth something. Likewise, FW and Thunderbolt (all three) aren't catching on to the degree USB ever has. USB is a cheap and inferior commodity protocol. Nothing wrong with that. It caters to its market - the very large market of people that just need a connection, bud don't need it to be fast or whatever. But among the users that could benefit from what FW offered in its day (it moved digital video forward among other things) it most definitely did catch on. And today, among the users that can benefit from what TB offers, it again has most certainly caught on. Perhaps it's not useful to you, but to some people 5K displays and 40Gbps transfer speeds provide productivity never before experienced. To some people (you know... Pros) that productivity is worth a lot more money than they're spending on the tech to get it.

TB3 is a large part of why these machines are pro machines. Everyone whining about these machines not being Pro machines don't get it. If TB3 is too expensive for you and you don't need it, then get a MacBook. Or a previous generation MBP from the refurb store (warranty and all). Or a PC.

I completely agree with this. It's very nice that MacOS is not bogged down by legacy crap, but I have to tell you that MagSafe, headphone jack, HDMI, SD card slots, Ethernet, and USB-A is not legacy crap. That's why all of those ports are on the iMac Pro, including 10Gbit/s ethernet, which is awesome! People still want them, people still need them. I think the next MacBook Pro redesign will have them back, but we'll have to wait and see on that one, won't we?

But that's the point. It's a laptop. Even if you make it a bit bigger, it's still not going to hold everything the iMac Pro has. Nor can it possibly hold everything that every user might want. Have you seen what goes into an external 10Gb Ethernet "dongle". Whats in there is a lot more than will go in a laptop. But with Thunderbolt, I can add it externally. Without that, I can't add it at all.

To those of us looking to the future and who need the absolute state of the art, all those things you described either are legacy crap, or are very easily added.

Question. What exactly do you need USB-A for that you can't use USB-C for? Like I said above, replace all your cables and you don't need dongles. And if you're buying a $5000 professional work machine and can't justify a handful of $10 cables, then you shouldn't be buying the machine in the first place.

Keyboards and mice? Get wireless ones. Or if you really want a wired keyboard/mouse then get an adapter attached permanently to the keyboard or the mouse (not carried around with you) and now your keyboard and mouse are USB-C. If it's sitting on your desk the whole time, what's the big deal? Or wait a couple more years until the market catches up, which, remember, it's only going to do when companies like Apple drag it kicking and screaming to do so. What else? Flash drives? USB-C flash drives exist now. What else?

Next. Magsafe. What's wrong with any of these: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbre...s-magsafe-magnetic-charging-usb-c-macbook-pro ? Call these dongles, or adapters or whatever you want, but some of these are small enough that you can keep them permanently attached in the USB-C port and you'll never even notice they're there.

Next, headphone jack? That's still in the MBPs. I'm not going to get into the phone debate about that right now.

SD card and HDMI. Sorry, but these are fringe cases, frankly. The number of people really complaining about losing HDMI and SD are a very vocal indeed, but actually small minority. In the real world what percentage of people in the market for which these machines are for (pro) are actually using these machines for something that requires HDMI. If it's for your own HDMI monitor then again, replace your cable (USB-C to HDMI) instead of getting a dongle, but what pro users are using this that don't have a monitor with more than just HDMI inputs? Conferences rooms that only have HDMI inputs for their projectors. Fringe case, among pro users. At least fringe enough to justify not keeping that port inside the machine, when an external option is still available. And SD cards? They're either just another storage medium for which a flash drive will do the job, or specific applications of SD like cameras etc. In that instance, the future of these is wireless. SD is slow by today's standards. Yes... it's the future, not the present, but again I say that as with every other change Apple and companies like it have forced on the industry, that future will become the present faster, with Apple removing the old options.

Ethernet? That went in 2012, and with gigabit wifi it's quickly becoming a fringe case also.

The point here is two things, what do most of the target market for these machines actually need all those ports (or dongles) for, here and now, today? Not anywhere near as much as what MR readers would have us believe. And the rest of us that really don't need all those ports are grateful they're not there any more.

My main gripe with Windows is not the fact that it supports and runs legacy stuff, it's the fact that the OS is built like complete garbage and the UI is about as consistent as Android is consistent with iOS. The actual lock screen has 4 icons in the bottom right, and every single one of them opens a menu that has a different look and feel. Seriously, when you notice that, you can't un-notice it. And the worst part is, all of these designs are no more than 10 years old. MacOS can easily run software from 10 years ago, so that's not the problem. Windows just has a terrible UI.

On this we are in complete agreement.

But here's the thing, right... the iMac G3 did NOT only have USB-A. I don't know where you're getting this from, but it just isn't true. It is true that it didn't have Serial and Parallel ports, but it did have modem (by that time a legacy port), ethernet, and 2 firewire ports.

Sorry... incorrect. Check here: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP136?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

2xUSB, 1x Ethernet, modem, headphone jack. That's it.

And the entire Mac community erupted with outrage at the loss of all the previous stuff, exactly like they are now.

But even manufacturers who make USB keyboards still aren't switching to USB-C. It just isn't happening.

And by the way there are lots of advantages to a wired keyboard, such as backlight; you can't get that (and decent battery life) on a wireless keyboard, so I honestly don't understand why Apple wants to go wireless only on that, but whatever. That's their choice. It's my choice, then, not to buy them.

Addressed above.

IF you need it. That, right there, is the crux point. It's not just that the devices you connect to the port is high end and expensive, it's that the port itself is high end and expensive. Meaning that any laptop with a lot of TB3 ports is going to become expensive, and therefore becomes unappealing unless you actually need those ports. This is exactly what has happened to the MacBook Pro.

No. USB-C isn't expensive. Thunderbolt is expensive. And it always has been. And so was Firewire before it. And so was SCSI before that. Apple has always put expensive ports in its machines, and has always championed them.

Apple's position here is that pro users need pro ports. And it's the right position. This comes back to the question of what exactly are people doing with these machines. In the real world, if you really can't benefit enough from the kind of performance those ports offer, then everything else in these machines is overkill for you as well. If you're not the kind of use who is going to benefit from eGPUs, higher speed external storage than any USB can offer, 5K (and soon 8K) displays, etc. etc. then what do you need everything else that's in that machine for? It's not just TB that makes these things expensive. If anything it's the NVMe SSD more than anything else, but it's also the amazingly bright and color accurate retina display, and a bunch of other things, not the least of which is the amazing engineering that makes Macs everything they are that's better than all but the most expensive PC's (by which point we're at price parity anyway).

Other manufacturers seeing this decided not to universally adopt USB-C, which means that manufacturers don't need to worry about USB-C or TB3 unless they're going to make one of these high speed products, and so the port is now used exclusively for those high-end expensive devices, which is exactly why it isn't becoming universal - it does not serve a universal demand.

With all due respect it seems like you're arguing in circles. Manufacturers don't use TB3 or as many TB3 ports in their machines unless they're making expensive high performance machines, and therefore all those machines that don't have TB3 in them are cheaper? Well yeah, no kidding. The MBP is supposed to be a high performance machine for people who need high performance. Back to what I said above. If you really can't benefit from what those ports offer but you really do need the other performance in one of these machines that isn't in a refurbished previous generation model, or a current model MB (non-pro) for half the price then you're in a very very small minority. I just have to ask the question... What exactly do you want to do with one of these things that can't possibly be done by anything other than the exact same thing but with cheaper ports?

Sort-of...

Thunderbolt 3 actually has some nasty properties in regards to display output and other weird incompatibilities. For example, take a look at this wonderful dongle: https://www.apple.com/dk/shop/product/MMEL2ZM/A/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-til-thunderbolt-2-mellemstik

Sorry about the Danish. This is a very poorly rated TB3 to TB2 connector from Apple. People expect it to output DisplayPort, but it doesn't, and the reason why is because it looks and sounds like it should, but it doesn't, and because of confusing connector standards, people buy this product and get screwed.

A very similar situation is already unfolding with Thunderbolt 3. There are complaints all over the internet about people buying USB-C connected stuff and plugging it in, and then it doesn't work, because it's a Thunderbolt 3 device, and they don't have a Thunderbolt 3 port, and they have no idea.

None of this matters if TB3 is a cheap, universal standard that everyone can use, but it isn't. It recently became the latter, but it is not the former. Until it is, it will not catch on, and people will get confused, and we'll have complaints, etc.

"People expect it to output DisplayPort but it doesn't." That's a problem with peoples' perception, not the product necessarily.

It clearly says in the product description (the english version here: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL2AM/A/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-to-thunderbolt-2-adapter) "Note: This adapter does not support DisplayPort displays like the Apple LED Cinema Display or third-party DisplayPort and Mini DisplayPort displays."

It's also not a problem with Thunderbolt 3 specifically. If you need to drive a mini-DP display then you don't need thunderbolt, and you don't need any adapter. You need a USB-C to mini-DP cable.

Agreed, there is some confusion between all the naming here. Even I've been misusing it. As I understand it when I'm not being lazy: USB-C isn't actually "USB". USB-C is a port & connector, and nothing more. It's a port & connector that, with the right configuration in each instance, can carry almost every version of USB, Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, HDMI, and various types of power. The port shouldn't be called USB anything because then people think it's just another form of USB. They should have given the port & connector some other completely different name, and then marketed all the cables, devices, etc based on the protocols they support.

But bad naming has very little to do with the fact that it's still amazing tech and it's the future.

Yes, it beats every other Mac ever made for about 2 minutes, which incidentally is how long a Geekbench score lasts, and then it loses to last year's model, and after about 5 minutes of sustained use it loses to the 2013 MacBook Pro, and if you turn on the GPU at the same time, it might even lose to the 2008 MacBook Pro.

It's a ********. Don't buy it. Seriously, don't. I'm not trying to take the piss here, but I think Apple might be.

Well... if this really is the case then it sucks, but that still doesn't make it a piece of junk. Actually my existing 2017 MBP has the same issue. It slows to a crawl and freezes up (temporarily) under load and I know it's a heat problem because as soon as I put an ice pack under it it speeds up again. It's a pain in the ass, and definitely a flaw in the engineering, and if that's what's happening in the new ones also then yes, that part sucks, and they need to fix that. You've got my support there.

But that's one flaw, and if that's its only flaw then it's a problem, but it's not a piece of junk, and I still want one.

There's nothing universal about that, and USB-C did not pave the way to removing all these connectors, it just added another connector. The reason why this problem happened is because USB could not stick to being universal, and they haven't made it better by adding more types, and they aren't going to make it better by adding yet another one.

This is very much the same thing as all these people making new programming languages because theirs is going to be the definitive one and now we won't have to relearn dozens of languages all the time... nah, they just made another language and fragmented the market further at best.

But again, that's the point. This is exactly why Apple put only USB-C on all their laptops. And in time I wouldn't be surprised if the desktops go that way too. The whole reason Apple is doing this is to push it as the one port. If Apple put USB-C in its macs, and kept all the old ports in, then it would be just another port. The fact that they're posing it as their gold standard at least means hopefully the rest of the world will copy them, like they do with so many other things. There will be some resistance, but Apple's a world leading company now, not quite the niche it used to be. Yes its computers still have low market share, but look at what happened after Apple released the MacBook Air. Everyone else jumped on the bandwagon and built similar machines, when no one significant had built one like it before. Now that style of notebook is very common.

I have no idea why the USB industry in the past made all the B's, AB's, etc. It's insane and I've been saying that for 15 years. Why couldn't all the printer manufacturers put USB-A ports on the back instead of USB-B. Now the mini and micro ones I understand because those were created for where USB-A is too big. Hopefully now USB-C is small enough that no one will feel the need to make another one. And hopefully with a world leading company like Apple, combined with Intel and whoever else is behind it, pushing it as the one standard moving forwards, then no one else will be idiotic enough to create yet another one. In other words, other ones were necessary for various reasons. Now they're not. Regardless, it's not just "another" port. And it's not just another USB port while FW, TB and other things are all going alongside. Its intent, and those designing and pushing it (Intel, Apple, etc.), are trying to steer the industry towards replacing almost all other ports with it. That's more than what has been done previously.

If you disagree, that's ok. Let's not argue about that point. It's the future and we can't predict it. I believe that's the way it's going to go, and as I understand it, that's what Apple's trying to achieve. They'll either succeed or they won't but they can't be blamed for trying.

Well if we're going by this logic, things do get most interesting. Let's look at the 2012 MacBook Pro again.

So the two USB-A ports can drive an HDMI output, and the TB2 ports can be used as DP outputs, which are directly compatible with HDMI, plus we got an HDMI output. So that's 5 HDMI outputs. Whoops, you lose. Also, all of these can be dongled to DVI ports as well, because as it happens HDMI and DVI is the same thing under the hood. There's also USB-A and TB2 to ethernet adapters both, so that's 4 Ethernet ports, and they're full speed as well. How nice.

Ok come on. That's ridiculous. No one wants 5 HDMI, Ethernet or DVI ports. And you could say that's not the point, but yes, it is. If anyone wants multiples of anything it's USB and Thunderbolt. Whoops, you lose.

But it's true that you only had 2 Thunderbolt ports, and now you got 4. And paid a huge price premium. That's nice. Do you need 4 Thunderbolt ports though, or did you just end up paying extra expense for ports and features you don't need.

Answer: I do need them. At the very least I need four USB ports sometimes. So maybe Apple could have given me two Thunderbolt 3 ports as they are, and 2 USB (USB-C) only ports (like the one on the MacBook) and maybe I'd be happy. But the real point is I'm paying extra for the flexibility. With those four ports I can do anything including a lot more than I could ever before.

It doesn't, because these are dongles. They're very elaborate stands combined with dongles I suppose, but they are dongles. They don't help me on the go at all.

Why don't they help you on the go?

Call it a dock, call it a dongle, call it whatever you like. If you want to call that thing a dongle, fine, but what's the problem? Sure, dongles are a problem if I have to carry 15 of them because nothing in the world is compatible with USB-C yet, which to some degree was the problem in 2016. But that's not the case any more. What do you need to connect to your mac that you can't get a USB-C cable, or replacement for, or that can't be handled by say one or at worst two dongles?

But don't answer that, because here's the real point: Let's think about this for a second. The new 15" MBP is half a pound lighter and significantly smaller than the previous model. That hyperdrive I pointed you to is significantly less than half a pound, and significantly smaller than the volume difference between the two laptops. So why is carrying round a 2018 MBP and that hyperdrive worse than carrying around the heavier and larger (than both of those put together) 2015 MBP?!!

Now you might say you don't want to have to buy all those replacements and cables, but if so then you don't understand the tech world. Things are constantly changing and sooner or later you have to replace everything. If you're not ready to do that yet then it makes more sense for you to hold on to your perfectly good 2015 MBP (or buy one if you don't have one already), and leave the new stuff for us early adopters while you wait for the rest of the world to catch up.

No, I said HD BluRay. That came out last year mate. And it's gaining momentum, not losing it.

Ok... but apple made it very clear 10 years ago that they weren't supporting entertainment via optical media because they want to push the world towards everything being downloadable. And they're succeeding. Maybe HD BluRay is gaining momentum but it's never going to beat out what the iTunes store and the equivalent things from Amazon, Google and half a dozen other companies are doing. It's a niche compared to that direction the world is going and will stay that way. Even if that's wrong, Apple made their intentions clear on that front years before we lost Steve. We can criticize that position if we want but it's pointless to criticize their hardware for supporting that position.

But whatever, I get that we don't all want that port, and I certainly get your point in regards to floppies. I don't want a floppy drive in my Mac. All I am telling you is that low-end but still useful devices are NOT getting USB-C makeovers, because manufacturers simply don't care about doing that, and therefore the MacBook Pro 2016-2018 will always be the donglebook.

Right. Low end. A market that Apple has never catered to, and likely never will. And that's the point. Criticize them for not catering to low end if you want, but there's no point in criticizing Apple for not leaving USB-A in their high end laptops Macs (even the MacBook is a high end consumer laptop and the people using those are only complaining that it needs two USB-C ports not just one, but few care that it doesn't have USB-A), because USB-C caters to high end much better than USB-A so they're going to go that way.

Regardless, the people who want USB-A can buy the MacBook Air, and it's the perfect computer for them. That's Apple's "low end" offering. And until two weeks ago, Apple's "low end" pro offering was the 2015 MBP. But now that low end of the market is so low that now that they're not interested in it, just like they never have been. I'll agree there's something of a gap in their line up right now, with the Air aging, but rumor has it they're updating that soon which will hopefully fix that.

--------------------

Now... All that said... there's one other key point that in a way covers everything here in one argument. And that's this...

The real "issue" if anything here is that Apple is taking laptops in a different direction to the past, and different to most everyone else as well, at the moment. They're adopting a new philosophy. Throttling issue aside (not to ignore it, but to say that it's a separate mistake, rather than an issue with their philosophy), their philosophy is one that makes Pro laptops almost as powerful as Pro desktops, when they're on the desk, while ALSO making them as small and light as possible for carrying around when they're not on the desk.

A few people have commented here about having a set up at home, a setup at work, and maybe other places. The "set up" involves a Thunderbolt 3 dock, with all the ports you could ever want, one or more 4K/5K monitors, potentially with eGPUs, enormous amounts of very high speed storage (I mean hundreds of terabytes at 3+ GBytes/s if you want), power, and whatever else you might need, all attached to your laptop with one cable.

You pick the laptop up and go on the road and with these Mac laptops you have more power than most comparable laptops on the market (I'm not comparing with 7lb gaming laptops). If you're doing photography, video, or other Pro stuff, you can do all the capturing in the field with the laptop, but you can't do all the editing, rendering, whatever else (you can't do that properly on any laptop even if only for lack of screen space), so then you come back and sit down at your desk, connect with one cable, and you have nearly the equivalent of a pro level desktop computer, including all the ports, high speed storage, multiple large displays, whatever else, on your desk for the heavier work, without having to have a second desktop computer. That's never been truly possible before now (even if only for lack of graphics power, now solved with eGPUs).

This is what makes these things pro machines. This is what I use it for and I'm a developer, not even what you might consider truly pro (in the computer industry) the likes of people doing high end video, photography, etc. Those guys thrive on this stuff, and have no trouble paying for it - the extra productivity pays for it very quickly.

This philosophy of "make the core unit small, with core power (stuff you can't do externally - CPU, RAM, etc.) and connect all the big power externally through Thunderbolt", is the direction they're going. They tried that with the 2013 Mac Pro, and for many that worked, but it was kinda pointless because we don't need a pro desktop to be a small box we're not going to carry around all the time. But we do need a laptop to be that way, and so with these things it makes sense.

I for one find the size and weight of the maxed out 15" to be just about right. And I know a lot of others do too. It wouldn't be possible if it was filled up with other ports that to me (and arguably most real pro users) aren't important, without compromising other stuff that to me, is important. I don't need all those other ports inside when either I'd never use them in the first place (in my case) or in others' case, where they can pick and choose only the ones they need outside - which is why there's about seven different versions of that hyperdrive.

The point is, USB-C is a universal docking port, it's one port that can universally carry just about anything and you can universally connect almost anything to (either directly or through an adapter). Even just the USB-C in the MBP that isn't thunderbolt, can handle pretty much anything other than just specifically thunderbolt.

And maybe that's the name they should have given this new port instead of another form of USB. Maybe UDP - Universal Docking Port. Or something.

Rightly or wrongly, that's the point. Rightly or wrongly, that's where the tech world is going. I think rightly. You may think wrongly, but I guess we'll see in a few years who was right. If you're going to criticize it, criticize that direction, rather than the lack of ports themselves.

But that said, let's face it, sure there are a lot of people here on MR jumping up and down saying Apple's lost its way and is doomed and so on, but those are a small vocal minority. In the real world, these pro machines are selling better than anything before them despite being more expensive than ever before, and that's because they really do cater to the market they're aimed at. Apple has a lot of flaws, but that's not one of them.

When they found they couldn't put 32GB RAM in it two years ago without compromising the size and weight then they really should have compromised the size and weight instead of the RAM, and I rather wish it had 64 by now. I'd say the same about this throttling issue. An extra few millimeters is a small price to pay for better cooling if lack of it is truly hampering performance. And there are other issues as well. But ports is not one of them - from the point of view of who these machines are aimed at. To argue with that is like saying BMWs are stupid and BMW the company is doomed because they don't make cars that compete with Hyundai or whatever.

Everything you've said here (as is the case with nearly everyone else on here complaining about ports as far as I can tell) only indicates to me that you're not the target market for these machines and whatever you want to do with you could do just as well with the 2015 model and therefore that model really is the right machine for you, which is why they kept selling it until two weeks ago. (Or possibly you'd be better with a MacBook or MacBook Air) I just don't understand what's in these new MBPs that you could possibly need that isn't in the 2015 model that still has everything else you want at half the price (give or take). And by the time the 2015 one really is too old for you, the world will have caught up with USB-C and hopefully they'll have figured out the throttling issue, or maybe you don't need the top of the line fastest one and so whatever you do need won't throttle anyway.

My point: it's one thing to have an intellectual argument about ports but it's another thing to think about what's really important to each user's needs, practically, in the real world, and that's where I really think MR readers and commenters go off the rails.

If there's one thing I really want to know, from you, and everyone else complaining about ports, but can't upgrade all their peripherals to USB-C, and can't change their workflows so that they just don't need HDMI and SD any more (because there are perfectly good alternative, except maybe SD for photographers right now)... What do you want to do with it that you can't do with a MacBook Air or a 2015 MacBook Pro, with all the ports you want?

 

[toke lahti]

https://www.apple.com/imac-pro/

just sayin'

Yes, I agree. My 2017 maxed out MBP gets painfully slow when i hit it with too much. I don't know if this is what the throttling is, but a thing called kernel task, starts chewing up CPU. I was told it's actually not doing anything other than stopping anything else from doing much because that's the software way of slowing things down so it doesn't overheat. When this happens, I put the MBP on a large ice pack, then within a minute or so that kernel task goes away and things speed up again.

That's my solution for overheating issues now. It seems to work. Not much good on the go though. Hmmm... maybe there's a market for some kind mobile attachment that can do this - a Thunderbolt 3 dock that looks something like this: https://www.owcdigital.com/dec with more ports, some extra SSD and battery maybe, plus a compartment for sliding in custom fitted ice packs. lol.

I really want the power of the new 2018 i9 MBP. If it's there (that power) except for overheating issues, then at least on my desk with ice packs, maybe I can have near iMac Pro (low end) speeds in a laptop.

No double-glassy mirror for me, ever.
Thank you.

 

[Detnator]

I’d like to have a mac to my desktop with same internals than 15”er has (now that 15”er has dp 1.4), but it has a big fan so it wouldn’t throttle down after rendering for 2 minutes.

Looks like Apple listened on this issue at least...

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/throttling-fix-2018-macbook-pro-improvements/

And maybe upgradeable storage when ssd dies...

Yeah... I don't get this complaint. And i'm going to pick on you just because we're already in an exchange, but the following rant is at all similar messages I've read on here in the last few months at least...

Storage in these machines is fancy chips soldered to the motherboard. Why are those chips going to die any sooner than any other chips in the machine? Why are the complainers so obsessed with storage failing? It happened all the time with mechanical drives because they had moving parts that physically broke. These SSDs just don't do that.

Regardless, what are you doing with this thing? Obviously something very intense if you need all that power in the 15" MBP (even the base model). Clearly you're a professional, that needs a pro level machine? So you're going to buy a $5000 machine (give or take) and you're not going to upgrade the warranty to 3 years for less than another 10% of that ($379)...?

Oh... you'll say you want to keep it for a lot longer than 3 years, right? Well that doesn't make any sense. Who needs the kind of power that's in a $5000 machine today and isn't going to need significantly more power in 3 years? Or looking at that the other way: If what you're buying now for $5000 will still be good enough for you in 5 or 6 years as long as it doesn't break, then why not just buy the $3000 one now and then replace it with another $3000 one in three years (for another three years warranty, so total 6 years from today), and at those prices as long as you get more than $1000 for today's one in three years then you're in front. Sure, your actual numbers might be different, but the point remains no matter what you're getting.

Unless you always need the latest and greatest and you're going to replace it once a year, then buying one of these without AppleCare is insane. And then keeping these things for more than 3 years is also insane. I will never understand why anyone does that, unless they're a student or something and they can only afford the cheapest possible one now and can't afford to replace even that in three years, or maybe someone gives you one you could never have afforded in the first place and you're never going to afford to replace it ever. But if you're talking about a brand new 15" MacBook Pro then you're not in either of those categories.

So yeah... again not meaning to pick on you specifically. But it just doesn't make sense to keep this kind of gear for more than the warranty offers anyway. And if anything goes wrong within the warranty, obviously Apple will fix it for free.

And after the experiences I've had with LG lately with that LG 5K display, compared with experiences I've had with warranty claims with Apple... I can tell you now, Apple's tech & customer support is among the best in any industry (not just its own). If I'm going to have any of my gear break down I want it to be my Apple stuff and not anything else, because of how easily and quickly Apple will sort it out for me, and how crappy the experience is with most other companies. There are a lot of things to hate about Apple at the moment, but their warranties and support are not among them.

Don't buy now what you'll need in 6 years, expecting to keep it that long. Buy, with AppleCare, what will serve you well for 3 years for a lot less $ and replace it then with the money you saved now.

 

[Ishayu]

Fair enough. And I did the same thing again... this is now possibly my longest post anywhere ever. lol...

My God that's a long post. I've actually read through it, but I can't respond to all of it. I tried to find the time to do it, and I just don't have it. It's way, way too much.

I will respond to some of the larger points and make some of my own.

Just a correction: If you got an iMac g3 with a 400MHz processor, it had FireWire 400. I know this for a fact, because I have one. Apple tried to push the port with their first iPod as well, which I also have (but it's broken ), but it failed. People wanted USB, and they wanted iTunes on PC so they didn't have to get a Mac as well. They got both.

So, here's the deal with TB3: You can't have your cake and eat it, too. One the one hand you're arguing that nobody needs 5 HDMI ports or whatever silly setup you can make with the old MacBook Pro, but then you simultaneously argue that they do want that with the new MacBook Pro, and that this is a great feature of the new MacBook Pro, despite the fact that we can clearly establish that all they did was convert every port a connector that is seldom used instead of the ones people use much more frequently. We also established that having 4 TB3 ports is more expensive than having 2 (and 2 other ports), and that you never needed more than 2 TB3 ports. You did sometimes need more than 2 USB ports (when including the TB3 ports), which is reasonable, but the old MacBook Pro had that, too.

So you just paid more for the same thing and a little bit of hassle on the side.

As far as docks and dongles are concerned: Dongles are hassle, docks can't be transported and are not a hassle. Either way, it's a silly and entirely avoidable problem - the dock could simply be connected to the Thunderbolt 3 port that would exist even with my ideal MacBook Pro and you would've been absolutely fine.

As far as "low-end" peripherals go, I don't mean bad peripherals, I mean peripherals that don't need a lot of bandwidth. A great mouse is all about the ergonomics, latency, and polling rate (the latter 2 of which wireless mice utterly fail at until very recently, and they're still way behind). Good ergonomics do not require more bandwidth than bad ergonomics. There is no reason to make a Thunderbolt mouse. There is no reason to make a USB-C mouse, because everyone using USB-C have dongles, and everyone with USB-A do not.

Now if you wanna use that mouse with another machine as well that doesn't have USB-C, you end up havign to add and remove the dongle over and over again, which is plain annoying. Again, you pay more for more hassle, and some flexibility virtually nobody actually needs.

As far as me arguing in circles go - I am not arguing in circles, but I am describing a circular consumer trend. People make USB-A because everyone have USB-A. Therefore people buy USB-A devices, and on and on it goes. USB-C has "caught on" in the form of a million dongles for MacBook Pro owners, and that's it. In order for it to break through, it has to offer some really important advantages over USB-A, and it just doesn't really. It's nice that it's reversible and small, but who connects thumb drives, keyboards and mice to their phones? And the only other advantage is that it's reversible, which isn't a big deal.

And why am I not buying a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro 2015? Because they're hella out of date. Both of them will be vintage products in 2 years, and then I can't get repairs for them, and the MacBook is even worse on the Donglegate front. If I want a decent Apple laptop that was made recently, I just have no choice, nevermind my workflows.

 

[Detnator]

My God that's a long post. I've actually read through it, but I can't respond to all of it. I tried to find the time to do it, and I just don't have it. It's way, way too much.

I will respond to some of the larger points and make some of my own.

Just a correction: If you got an iMac g3 with a 400MHz processor, it had FireWire 400. I know this for a fact, because I have one. Apple tried to push the port with their first iPod as well, which I also have (but it's broken ), but it failed. People wanted USB, and they wanted iTunes on PC so they didn't have to get a Mac as well. They got both.

Yes, it was a long post. I'm trying to be thorough, and respectful. But honestly I can't come to any conclusion at this point other than you're just being ridiculous.

1. please check your facts.

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP136?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
- Aug 15, 1998. USB, ethernet, modem, headphone ports. No firewire.

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP137?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
- Jan 5, 1999. USB, ethernet, modem, headphone ports. No firewire.

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP131?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
- Apr 15, 1999. USB, ethernet, modem, headphone ports. No firewire.

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP121?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
- Oct 5, 1999.
-- "standard edition": USB, ethernet, modem, headphone ports
-- "special edition" only: Same plus VGA and firewire.

Yes, 400GHz came with Firewire. 14 months and three iMacs after the original one.

Regardless, this is irrelevant because we're comparing the fuss everyone made about Apple removing all the old ports (ADB, Serial, SCSI) from the iMacs, the blue G3 towers, and everything that came after it starting in 1998. Everyone complained that Apple was pushing USB(-A) and discarding the old stuff. Now everyone's complaining they're doing it again. Well, it's what they do. It's what they've always done, and discarding legacy stuff and not having to cater to it is a large part of why Apple stuff works better than PC stuff.

So, here's the deal with TB3: You can't have your cake and eat it, too. One the one hand you're arguing that nobody needs 5 HDMI ports or whatever silly setup you can make with the old MacBook Pro, but then you simultaneously argue that they do want that with the new MacBook Pro, and that this is a great feature of the new MacBook Pro, despite the fact that we can clearly establish that all they did was convert every port a connector that is seldom used instead of the ones people use much more frequently. We also established that having 4 TB3 ports is more expensive than having 2 (and 2 other ports), and that you never needed more than 2 TB3 ports. You did sometimes need more than 2 USB ports (when including the TB3 ports), which is reasonable, but the old MacBook Pro had that, too.

So you just paid more for the same thing and a little bit of hassle on the side.

5 HDMI ports is ridiculous and absolutely not what I'm arguing at all. I never said I want 5 HDMI ports. What I want is four very powerful very flexible ports and not a myriad of different much less flexible ports. Four Thunderbolt ports give me that, and frankly, when Tim released the 2012 rMBP, I think at that point the whole TB3/USB-C combination thing was rumored. I specifically wrote to him and told him I'd much rather have another two TB ports instead of HDMI and SD, and if the existing two USB ports could be merged into TB as well, then do that too. Seems he listened and delivered - so you can blame me for this if you want. Now, in 2018, yes, MAYBE I could be happy with 2 Thunderbolt ports and 2 USB-C ports, but that's a compromise, and why should they compromise in a top of the line pro machine?

The extra expense of 4xTB instead of 2xTB and 2xUSB in the grand scheme of things compared with all the other expensive tech that's in these machines is negligible ($3200 for the max SSD upgrade...?!).

With four thunderbolt ports I have ultimate flexibility to attach ANYTHING I want to this machine, in an astoundingly small space. If they're going to make these things any bigger they should NOT do that to put more ports in. They should do it to increase battery life and better cooling. I do not want old ports on my brand new PRO mac laptop. And most other people seem to agree with that, so it was the right decision for Apple. If you and the other few vocal MR readers here disagree then you're in a small minority that Apple, rightly, has no interest in catering to because of how it would compromise the rest of their market.

As far as docks and dongles are concerned: Dongles are hassle, docks can't be transported and are not a hassle. Either way, it's a silly and entirely avoidable problem - the dock could simply be connected to the Thunderbolt 3 port that would exist even with my ideal MacBook Pro and you would've been absolutely fine.

Again you're misquoting me to make false claims. There are two kinds of docks.

(a). The ones that sit on the desk and add all the ports you could possibly want with the main stuff on your desk already connected to them, and you connect one TB3 cable to it and everything just works.

(b) The portable docks like the Hyperdrive that you take with you on the go and that still have all the ports the old MBP's had.

For (a) it's meant to be a desktop solution and it is an amazing one. The situation is a huge improvement over previous generations, even over the similar TB2 options because of power delivery from those docks, plus you have the addition of eGPUs for the first time and of course the extreme speeds TB3 offers.

And for (b) the size and weight of the new MBP's plus one of those hyperdrives is still less than the size and weight of the old MBP. The ONLY difference is it's in two pieces instead of one, which in some circumstances is better anyway because in the situations where I don't need HDMI or SD or whatever else, I don't even have to pull the hyperdrive out of my bag.

Why don't you get that? Why is that approach such a deal breaker for you? What are you doing with your pro machine that makes it so ridiculous to put the old ports on one external device that adds negligible weight and size to the entire package? Why is that setup so outrageously useless to you?

It's not a silly and unavoidable problem. It's not a problem at all. And your solution hurts the rest of us. Bottom line, you want what's in that hyperdrive internal, and I want it external. Having it internal hurts me because it makes my laptop bigger and heavier than I want it to be. How does having it external hurt you? Don't tell me it's because you have to carry this extra thing around, because like I've said you're still carrying less than the old MBP.

As far as "low-end" peripherals go, I don't mean bad peripherals, I mean peripherals that don't need a lot of bandwidth. A great mouse is all about the ergonomics, latency, and polling rate (the latter 2 of which wireless mice utterly fail at until very recently, and they're still way behind). Good ergonomics do not require more bandwidth than bad ergonomics. There is no reason to make a Thunderbolt mouse. There is no reason to make a USB-C mouse, because everyone using USB-C have dongles, and everyone with USB-A do not.

Now if you wanna use that mouse with another machine as well that doesn't have USB-C, you end up havign to add and remove the dongle over and over again, which is plain annoying. Again, you pay more for more hassle, and some flexibility virtually nobody actually needs.

So you're buying a $5K+ pro laptop, AND you have some other machine. That other machine is so outdated, in 2018 that it doesn't have even one USB-C port, and you can't afford a second $30 mouse?

You want to argue that Apple include one or two previous generation (USB-A) ports in a $3K-$7K brand new laptop so you can have the "flexibility" of unplugging your $30 USB-A mouse from your MBP and plugging it into another machine that specifically doesn't have USB-C in it, in 2018, and back again, without having to have the hassle of unplugging an adapter and plugging it back in at the same time. Can you possibly understand how fringe that is? Buy another mouse ffs.

But that said... wireless mice: Yes a lot of wireless mice suck, but the good ones don't. The Magic Mouse is almost unanimously agreed by its users (including me) to be hands down one of the most precise and accurate mice ever made. (Likewise their trackpads). It's the perfect mouse for the kinds of people who the MBP's are for. If you can't agree with that, fine, but you're in a very small minority that Apple, rightly, has no interest in catering to.

As far as me arguing in circles go - I am not arguing in circles, but I am describing a circular consumer trend. People make USB-A because everyone have USB-A. Therefore people buy USB-A devices, and on and on it goes. USB-C has "caught on" in the form of a million dongles for MacBook Pro owners, and that's it. In order for it to break through, it has to offer some really important advantages over USB-A, and it just doesn't really. It's nice that it's reversible and small, but who connects thumb drives, keyboards and mice to their phones? And the only other advantage is that it's reversible, which isn't a big deal.

OK, if we're talking about USB-A vs USB-c, which seems to be your biggest beef, then consider this...

Other than mice and keyboards how many USB devices today that aren't USB-C or have USB-C replacements (eg. flash drives) are actually USB-A? Almost none. They're predominantly USB-B or mini-/micro-USB.

So what are all these USB-A devices we're talking about that aren't compatible with the new MBP's without dongles?

As I and others have said before, if you have non-USB-C devices then replace the cables for them. You don't need dongles.

"USB-C has 'caught on'...advantages over USB-A, and it just doesn't really'. That's just not true on both counts.

1. USB-C has caught on in the form of almost everything except mice and keyboards. If you can't see that then this whole conversation is pointless.

2. I spelled out in detail how reversible and small ARE both a big deal for a lot of people, me included. You can't just keep dismissing/ignoring these points as if they're just not true. Ok... so maybe small and reversible is not for you perhaps, but most of the market disagrees with you, putting you again in a small minority that Apple, rightly, has no interest in catering to.

And why am I not buying a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro 2015? Because they're hella out of date. Both of them will be vintage products in 2 years, and then I can't get repairs for them, and the MacBook is even worse on the Donglegate front. If I want a decent Apple laptop that was made recently, I just have no choice, nevermind my workflows.

Why does "made recently" have to be a criteria?

Not buying the 2015 MBP because it's out of date:
It's not out of date for you, except for your ego. It has everything you want in it, and nothing you don't need in it apparently. I'll ask again since you didn't answer before: What tech is in the 2018 one that you need that isn't in the 2015 one? You're arguing all this stupid theory and hypotheticals and you're not answering the real question. Which is exactly what every other complainer does on here. What do you actually need this thing for?

Not buying it because you can't repair it in 2 years.
Until two weeks ago you had three very good options, and now you still have two of them:

1. Buy the 2015 model brand new (two weeks ago before they completely discontinued it), with 3yrs AppleCare.
2. Wait now until it reappears on the refurbished store, which is only a matter of time and again get it with 3 yrs AppleCare.
3. Buy one off eBay that includes at least 2 years of AppleCare on it - they are there.

...and you can repair it for free for those 2-3 years. By which time you need to replace it anyway.

Doesn't matter if they call it vintage, if it's under AppleCare warranty and anything goes wrong with it they fix it for free.

Buying any Mac without AppleCare is insane, and keeping any Mac for more than the AppleCare warranty period is both practically and financially insane. See my comment here: Yesterday at 5:59 AM for that explained in detail.

You don't need now all the performance that's in the new MBP. (If you did, you would have told me what you're doing with it as possibly the only sensible argument you'd have posted here). So whatever you're doing with it, a 2015 model would be fine performance wise.

So option 1: Buy a $5K machine now (that you don't like or need now) with the goal of keeping it for say 4 years, which is at least a year after its AppleCare warranty expires, and so you risk having to pay a lot to have it fixed during that last year.

Or option 2: Buy a $2500, 2015 machine now that has at least 2 years AppleCare on it, that you do like, and keep it for those 2 years. Then sell it for $1500 and buy another $2500 one then which lets say at worst is another one from eBay with at least 2 years AppleCare included, and keep that for another 2 years. There's your 4 years from option 1 for a net cost of $1500 less than the $5K one you would have bought in option 1, plus they're both warranted the entire time instead of risking that last year in option 1.

Even if my figures are really conservative, there's $1500 wiggle room there for you to do all that and break even. (eg. if you buy a $3K one now, sell it for $1000 in 2 years and then but another $3K one, then you've broken even compared to a $5K option 1. And if you don't need what's worth $5K for option one, then you don't need what's worth $2500-$3K for option 2 so adjust proportionally.

The one you buy in 2 years (2020) could well be the 2018 one you would have bought new in option 1 so you're no worse off for those last two years tech wise. It will only have the Thunderbolt 3/USB-C in it of course, but by then the rest of the world will have caught up and you won't need any of the old ports any more. And even if you do still need those ports that haven't been in a new Mac laptop for four years by that point, then it should be so rare that you can carry the hyperdrive around while only rarely having to pull it out of your bag.

If you can't see the sense in that, then this whole conversation is pointless. And from Apple's point of view, if you can't see the sense in that then you're in a very small minority that Apple has no interest in catering to - and never has.

If you want to complain about Apple not catering to your very specific niche use case, then fine, complain about that as you have probably already been doing for 15 years. But if you're trying to argue that Apple are making the wrong decisions for the market with these then you're just plain wrong. And that's ultimately what this all comes down to. Statements like this:

"Again, you pay more for more hassle, and some flexibility virtually nobody actually needs."

That's what this all boils down to, and it's where you're wrong, or at best we're going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Apple's target market for these machines do need the flexibility and performance provided by four Thunderbolt 3 ports, and don't need the old ports, and have no trouble paying for it. And we don't want to have to carry around any more size and weight than we have to to get our jobs done.

If you're not doing the kind of work where that extra performance makes you the extra money to pay for it then this machine is not for you for a whole lot of reasons other than the ports.

There are enough of the rest of us out there that feel the direction they're going with this stuff at least is exactly the direction we want them to go. I'm sorry that you're a fringe exception, but they can't cater to everyone.

Everything we've said is theory and hypothetical (and therefore pretty pointless) until someone actually describes what they need this machine for, that's so badly catered to by it to warrant all this uproar. I again ask you what do you actually want to do with your pro mac laptop that is apparently so badly catered to?

 

[Ishayu]

5 HDMI ports is ridiculous and absolutely not what I'm arguing at all. I never said I want 5 HDMI ports. What I want is four very powerful very flexible ports and not a myriad of different much less flexible ports. Four Thunderbolt ports give me that, and frankly, when Tim released the 2012 rMBP, I think at that point the whole TB3/USB-C combination thing was rumored. I specifically wrote to him and told him I'd much rather have another two TB ports instead of HDMI and SD, and if the existing two USB ports could be merged into TB as well, then do that too. Seems he listened and delivered - so you can blame me for this if you want. Now, in 2018, yes, MAYBE I could be happy with 2 Thunderbolt ports and 2 USB-C ports, but that's a compromise, and why should they compromise in a top of the line pro machine?

I'm not going to blame you for the decision that Tim Cook made, if he even made it.

The existing ports were flexible. They were USB ports and Thunderbolt ports. You could turn them into anything you wanted except 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports - you could have only two of exactly that. Do you need more than 2 Thunderbolt 3 devices connected at once, ever? What is the usecase?

The extra expense of 4xTB instead of 2xTB and 2xUSB in the grand scheme of things compared with all the other expensive tech that's in these machines is negligible ($3200 for the max SSD upgrade...?!).

No, it isn't. Do you know how much a Thunderbolt port costs? Generally, in the PC space, you will notice that motherboards with a TB3 port cost more than $100 more than the one without, even if they are otherwise identical, which leads any sane person to believe that they are quite expensive. For the MacBook Pro's config you need an additional 16 PCI-e lanes. That's a metric ton, and combined with the touch bar it easily adds $500 to the machine. There is evidence for this if you look at Apple's pricing model or the fact that the MacBook ended up with just 1 port - the CPU in it didn't have enough lanes to drive more.

With four thunderbolt ports I have ultimate flexibility to attach ANYTHING I want to this machine, in an astoundingly small space. If they're going to make these things any bigger they should NOT do that to put more ports in. They should do it to increase battery life and better cooling. I do not want old ports on my brand new PRO mac laptop. And most other people seem to agree with that, so it was the right decision for Apple. If you and the other few vocal MR readers here disagree then you're in a small minority that Apple, rightly, has no interest in catering to because of how it would compromise the rest of their market.

If we're a minority then I guess that would be why the whole PC industry is laughing at them while commanding 90% of the marketshare.

Again you're misquoting me to make false claims. There are two kinds of docks.

(a). The ones that sit on the desk and add all the ports you could possibly want with the main stuff on your desk already connected to them, and you connect one TB3 cable to it and everything just works.

(b) The portable docks like the Hyperdrive that you take with you on the go and that still have all the ports the old MBP's had.

No, that's just pure word confusion. a) is a dock. It's called a dock because you dock your laptop in it, see. b) is a multi-adapter, often called a dongle. Perhaps a very elaborate one, but it's a dongle. If it converts one thing to one other thing only, it's called an adapter. Docks may include ports as well, so it's effectively a "desktop dongle", you could say.

I have looked up the "dock" you reference, and they call it a "docking station". It isn't. I don't know why they're calling it that. Seems like a useful product though.

Google the term docking station and look at the images. I rest my case.

Why don't you get that? Why is that approach such a deal breaker for you? What are you doing with your pro machine that makes it so ridiculous to put the old ports on one external device that adds negligible weight and size to the entire package? Why is that setup so outrageously useless to you?

Because now I need a dongle (in my bag) and a dock (at home), whereas before I just needed a dock, or nothing at all. Alternatively, I can take my dongle in and out of my bag all the time, which is incredibly annoying - and if I happen to forget to bring it, I've got problems, because nobody else uses my goddamned USB-C where I'm going.

It's just a hassle. Really, that's all there is to it.

So you're buying a $5K+ pro laptop, AND you have some other machine. That other machine is so outdated, in 2018 that it doesn't have even one USB-C port, and you can't afford a second $30 mouse?

You want to argue that Apple include one or two previous generation (USB-A) ports in a $3K-$7K brand new laptop so you can have the "flexibility" of unplugging your $30 USB-A mouse from your MBP and plugging it into another machine that specifically doesn't have USB-C in it, in 2018, and back again, without having to have the hassle of unplugging an adapter and plugging it back in at the same time. Can you possibly understand how fringe that is? Buy another mouse ffs.

And another keyboard, and another headset, and another HDMI cable, and another VIRTUALLY ****ING ANYTHING.

If you think plugging cables into multiple different machines is a fringe usecase, you're ****ing insane. There is no point in my carrying on.

But that said... wireless mice: Yes a lot of wireless mice suck, but the good ones don't. The Magic Mouse is almost unanimously agreed by its users (including me) to be hands down one of the most precise and accurate mice ever made. (Likewise their trackpads). It's the perfect mouse for the kinds of people who the MBP's are for. If you can't agree with that, fine, but you're in a very small minority that Apple, rightly, has no interest in catering to.

OH MY GOD WHAT DID I JUST READ?! It's a high latency 500 DPI pile of crap with a charging port on the bottom and a hilarious unergonomic design. Last time I bought a desktop Mac I specifically went for the trackpad and used it alongside my Logitech mouse, because that mouse is hilariously bad. I don't know where you're getting this from - I've never seen a single person use it, and I've got over 40 colleagues using Macs and about 10 friends, too. They ALL loathe it.

Like, it's one thing for you to say you personally prefer it. I can respect that. I cannot respect you calling it the best mouse on the market, objectively speaking, however. Even Apple fansites give it lukewarm scores at best, with 3 stars on the Apple Store and places like Macworld and so on, and the PC world is laughing at it. It's literally a meme how bad it is.

NOW I'm done.

As for workloads I need a MacBook Pro: How about I'm a software developer that develops for iOS and I do scientific computation that uses a GPU. Yes, I've got access to a supercomputer, but testing out an algorithm on a local machine without spending all day waiting for it to finish on the Intel GPU is a godsend. That, and I plain prefer MacOS over Windows (spying, inconsistent sucky desktop) or Linux (sucky desktop, low app compatibility).

 

[Detnator]

[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to blame you for the decision that Tim Cook made, if he even made it.

The existing ports were flexible. They were USB ports and Thunderbolt ports. You could turn them into anything you wanted except 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports - you could have only two of exactly that. Do you need more than 2 Thunderbolt 3 devices connected at once, ever? What is the usecase?

Two 5K displays plus two of these:

https://www.owcdigital.com/products/envoy-pro-ex-ve-thunderbolt-3

And no I'm not being a smartass. That is a real use case for me.

There are a million hubs and docks and whatever else that can extend TB3 to anything else. There is nothing that can extend one TB3 port to two (because TB can't support that). The only option is for as many as I'll ever want to be built in.

Apple could have put two USB-A ports in there as well, but they purposefully didn't because by doing so it helps push the rest of the market to USB-C where they otherwise wouldn't, just like in the lat 90's with the original USB. It's cause and effect. The market will eventually catch up to USB-C partly because Apple did this. Without this the market will take a lot longer to catch up. You don't believe the change is a good one anyway because to you the improvements USB-C bring are negligible, but as we've noted they are a big deal to some people, and Apple wants to cater to those.

No, it isn't. Do you know how much a Thunderbolt port costs? Generally, in the PC space, you will notice that motherboards with a TB3 port cost more than $100 more than the one without, even if they are otherwise identical, which leads any sane person to believe that they are quite expensive. For the MacBook Pro's config you need an additional 16 PCI-e lanes. That's a metric ton, and combined with the touch bar it easily adds $500 to the machine. There is evidence for this if you look at Apple's pricing model or the fact that the MacBook ended up with just 1 port - the CPU in it didn't have enough lanes to drive more.

Screw the touch bar. I have no trouble agreeing that's probably the stupidest thing they've ever done. So I think we can leave that out of the argument, if we agree on that one. If the cost of a USB-C TB3 port is >$100 more than one without then can we say it's about $100 more than any USB 3.1 port? So two of them replacing two of them means the Mac is $200 more. In a $3K machine that's 6%. In the $6K version it's 3%. I personally think that flexibility is worth it. Ok, maybe you don't, and I'll respect that.

But I think the specific market Apple is targeting thinks it's worth it. And I think that's the point more than anything. More on that in a moment...

If we're a minority then I guess that would be why the whole PC industry is laughing at them while commanding 90% of the marketshare.

Yes, the PC market probably is laughing at them. Good for them. Apple doesn't care about the PC market, any more than BMW cares about Hyundai's market. And this is the point... I've been on and on about Apple's target market, because that's what counts. They're the pros who want the extras and don't mind paying for them because those extras very quickly pay for themselves.

And that's all their market ever has been and that's all they want it to be. And those of us who are in it like it that way and that's why we buy Apple. And in Apple catering to that market they're now the wealthiest company in the world. Other software companies come close. No other computer hardware maker comes close. So do Apple care about market share? Who's laughing?

Those two 5K displays and 2800MB/s drives above make me more money than I'd make without them, so to a point, I don't care how much they cost, or how much the ports cost to make them possible. And that there is the point more than anything else. (By the way, I'm a developer too - custom software and consulting for small to medium businesses. Not sure if I mentioned that before, or if it even matters but there it is).

If what you're doing doesn't make you enough money to pay for this stuff, then you can sit around on MR complaining about it all your life, or you can accept that Apple is never going to cater to you, and pursue something different. Maybe iOS development isn't for you. I realize from your perspective that's an incredibly arrogant thing for me to say, and that's fair enough. Also, I'm not just saying that to you specifically, but to all the "ports complainers" on here. most of whom just come here and whine but won't engage in at least something of an intelligent debate about it, so you have that over them...

...But my point is, people come here and whine and complain about Apple taking out the ports because they just don't understand what Apple is, or is trying to do. You like MacOS but you don't like many of the other decisions Apple makes. Yeah, I genuinely feel for you because that's a tough call. But there's also the idea that a large part of what makes Apple Apple, and what contributes to their OS being so much better, is these challenging (courageous? lol) hardware choices they make. Part of why MS sucks is because they keep trying to support past and present stuff, while Apple keeps pushing their hardware, their software, and the market into the future. The issue here, for you, is that the two are connected. If Apple didn't make the hardware decisions they make, a lot of their software would suck as much as MS's.

I've never understood why they won't make an expandable mini tower (or a normal tower for the last 6 or so years for that matter). Now I realize this might be it. Maybe it really isn't all the conspiracy theories of trying to lock everyone in just for the sake of more money. Maybe it's because people putting third party stuff into Macs compromises the experience. I mean heck that's what they're saying, but maybe it's the truth, otherwise why else is macOS and the entire Mac experience so much better than Windows? They don't want to have to support all that third party stuff, and they don't want the user experience compromised by all that third party stuff - which it will be, even with a whole lot more work on their part that they don't want to be bothered with. These days Apple's OS and experience actually sucks a lot of the time - a lot of the time things don't "just work" like they used to - but even then, they're still way ahead of the competition (MS and Google primarily) for user experience, and a lot of that is because of these otherwise potentially questionable hardware decisions. My point: the stuff you love about macOS, partly exists only because of these hardware choices they make that you (and sometimes I, too) hate. If not for that I would actually agree with a lot more of your points. Unfortunately I don't believe we can have one without compromising the other. In the real world, no one - even Apple with all their resources - can accommodate everything, so they choose to create a great (well, let's say better) experience for a limited amount of stuff, vs a lousy experience for everything.

It may or may not be a stretch, but it's just an example: In 5-10 years they may drop support for USB-A/B/mini/micro/AB/etc, FireWire, HDMI, SD Cards, etc (even through adapters etc.) and so on completely, like they did with SCSI, ADB, etc. in the early 2000's. That will remove bulk from the OS which will be part of what makes it better than Windows (and Dell and HP and everyone else). But they'll only be able to do that if the market catches up. And the market won't even try to catch up, if Apple keeps any of those old ports on their Macs.

Now that example with what might happen in 5-10 years may or may not be a stretch, but it's more or less exactly what happened in the early 2000's with all the stuff they replaced with USB only in the iMacs and Blue G3s, so is it really a stretch? The PC world hung (clung) onto serial and all their stuff, gritting their teeth refusing to move on, for as long as they could, but eventually all that stuff was superseded by USB (and firewire etc). So what if history repeats itself here? What if by Apple removing HDMI from all their Macs (and eventually the AppleTV too, perhaps), all the projector companies, computer monitor companies and even TV makers over the next 5-10 years adopt the USB-C port for all video instead of HDMI, etc., and all those conference rooms, etc update accordingly. Then no one will ever need an HDMI port on anything any more. And what if all the camera makers over the next 5-10 years adopt entirely wireless workflows instead of SD cards. And what if USB-A/B/mini/micro/etc. all fade away and standardise on USB-C. Over 5+ years, is that all that really a stretch? And if it did happen (and the other issues with USB-C get ironed out), is that likely to make the world a better place? Is it more likely to happen if Apple really pushes USB-C (to the point of ripping everything else out of their Macs and other devices over time), and then some other hardware companies jump on that bandwagon too like at least some of them do at times like this...?

Is all that really a stretch? Sure I've been talking about 2-3 years for USB-C to slowly become more ubiquitous than USB-A/B/mini-/micro-/etc. and I think that's realistic, but then for 5-10 years, is the above scenario really a stretch, where, sure it's USB5 and TB7 or whatever by then, but everything is pushed out of the market except for this USB-C port and wireless?

No, that's just pure word confusion. a) is a dock. It's called a dock because you dock your laptop in it, see. b) is a multi-adapter, often called a dongle. Perhaps a very elaborate one, but it's a dongle. If it converts one thing to one other thing only, it's called an adapter. Docks may include ports as well, so it's effectively a "desktop dongle", you could say.

I have looked up the "dock" you reference, and they call it a "docking station". It isn't. I don't know why they're calling it that. Seems like a useful product though.

Google the term docking station and look at the images. I rest my case.

Ok, seriously?... Are we arguing about terminology or are we arguing about practical use? I mean does any of that really contribute to this conversation? Does it really matter what word we want to call these things when we're discussing use case?

Because now I need a dongle (in my bag) and a dock (at home), whereas before I just needed a dock, or nothing at all. Alternatively, I can take my dongle in and out of my bag all the time, which is incredibly annoying - and if I happen to forget to bring it, I've got problems, because nobody else uses my goddamned USB-C where I'm going.

It's just a hassle. Really, that's all there is to it.

I don't want those extra ports making my Mac heavier and bigger than it needs to be, compromising the future of the OS, and making the market not bother to catch up. You do want them. If you had them inside, you'd have a machine the size and weight of the old MBP. Having them on the outside (effectively, with things like the hyperdrive) means I get a machine half a pound lighter and taking up less space in my bag, and pushing the market forward faster, while you still get a machine plus one extra piece that converts what I want into exactly everything you want (including the extra size and weight) with the one exception that it's an external piece (that you might forget to bring with you, and that you sometimes have to plug in along with whatever else you're plugging in). Except for that exception then we should both be happy, surely?

So buy the "dock" on your desk, so you don't have to pull the dongle out of your bag when you're there, and everywhere else just don't forget to bring it. You don't need to take it out at home because you'd have the desktop docking station on your desk. So keep it in your bag at all times. Ok, it's a hassle. I'm sorry. But one of your choices (keep some old ports and fewer new ports) doesn't give me the options I want at all. The other of your choices (include 4x TB for me, AND everything else for you) makes the mac a whole lot bigger than most people want it. And neither of those choices push the market forwards as Apple likes to do and has historically successfully done in the past. At least my choice gives you the option you want even if it's a bit of a hassle. Not to downplay the hassle. I acknowledge it. And maybe the choices made by Apple for these machines really suck for you. But I argue that the alternatives are worse over all for more people. And that's where Apple is coming from.

Yes, all of that is more expensive, but it benefits some people this way, where the alternatives don't. For those people, it pays for itself pretty quickly, and that's the market Apple is trying to cater to. And maybe Apple's market is small, but Apple caters to that market better than anyone (and for that statement, I consider you at least partially in a different market, since they don't cater to you as well as they, or someone, might).

No one uses "goddamned USB-C" where you're going because the market hasn't caught up. And it never will if Apple doesn't push it like it is. The market will catch up in another 2 years or so because Apple pushed it that way - just like it has multiple times in the past when Apple's done this. As well as all my stuff above about partly why macOS is better.

From your use case, it sounds like you want the new MBP because of the TB3 so you can use an eGPU for the scientific computations, and that's why the 2015 model isn't right for you any more. Is that correct? If so, fair enough, but I still say don't take away what four TB3 ports gives me and the other people who can benefit from it, that I have absolutely no other option for without them, when what you need is still possible with the hyperdrive permanently in your bag and a dock on your desk.

Although if it's not about eGPU, then is the discreet video card in the 2015 MBP really that much slower than the discreet one in the 2016-2018 MBPs?

And another keyboard, and another headset, and another HDMI cable, and another VIRTUALLY ****ING ANYTHING.

If you think plugging cables into multiple different machines is a fringe usecase, you're ****ing insane. There is no point in my carrying on.

So:
1. your other computer is a computer you can't possibly add USB-C to and doesn't have a decent GPU (or can't add one) for your scientific computations? What the heck is it? And...
2. you're unplugging and plugging in ALL those extra devices between two computers, constantly? But you still have an issue with dongles/docks/adapters and/or that hyperdrive? Really?

Again you want Apple to cater to that, while taking away from me and the rest of the pro market what they've provided us?

Seriously, what is this second computer that you're ok with plugging and unplugging everything with, and what's it for in your workflow/situation?

OH MY GOD WHAT DID I JUST READ?! It's a high latency 500 DPI pile of crap with a charging port on the bottom and a hilarious unergonomic design. Last time I bought a desktop Mac I specifically went for the trackpad and used it alongside my Logitech mouse, because that mouse is hilariously bad. I don't know where you're getting this from - I've never seen a single person use it, and I've got over 40 colleagues using Macs and about 10 friends, too. They ALL loathe it.

Like, it's one thing for you to say you personally prefer it. I can respect that. I cannot respect you calling it the best mouse on the market, objectively speaking, however. Even Apple fansites give it lukewarm scores at best, with 3 stars on the Apple Store and places like Macworld and so on, and the PC world is laughing at it. It's literally a meme how bad it is.

Ok, all of that is entirely news to me. It's obvious we network in very different circles. So be it. Personally I've tried a lot of mice and never used one with macOS, wired or wireless, that works for me as well as the Magic Mouse. I don't know or care about DPI numbers, but I know and care about my experience. I'll agree it's not the most ergonomic, but the touch surface has a lot to do with that I expect. But for its precision etc. I can't agree with - but I also can't argue with - your perspective since it's objective. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

NOW I'm done.

As for workloads I need a MacBook Pro: How about I'm a software developer that develops for iOS and I do scientific computation that uses a GPU. Yes, I've got access to a supercomputer, but testing out an algorithm on a local machine without spending all day waiting for it to finish on the Intel GPU is a godsend. That, and I plain prefer MacOS over Windows (spying, inconsistent sucky desktop) or Linux (sucky desktop, low app compatibility).

I guess we just wait a few years and (a) see if the world catches up with USB-C or not, and (b) find out if Apple are doomed because they made the wrong decisions for the market here, or if these things actually sell because they made the right decision for the market.

Agreed even that may or may not make them the right decisions for the industry/world. Look at Microsoft’s market in the 90’s. The market put up with that crap for 15+ years, and it definitely wasn't the best thing for the industry/world, right? I blame the heads of all the corporate IT departments for that, and the fact that while the alternatives (Apple's OS at the time more than anything else) were better, they weren't better enough. Now they are and the world has changed (for the better) on that front at least. At least that's a plus.

In that context, I think if Apple's decisions turn out to be the best for the market, then they might be the best decisions for the industry/world as well (unlike MS's in the 90's). And if they don't you can say "I told you so".

 

[toke lahti]

Looks like Apple listened on this issue at least...

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/throttling-fix-2018-macbook-pro-improvements/



Yeah... I don't get this complaint. And i'm going to pick on you just because we're already in an exchange, but the following rant is at all similar messages I've read on here in the last few months at least...

Storage in these machines is fancy chips soldered to the motherboard. Why are those chips going to die any sooner than any other chips in the machine? Why are the complainers so obsessed with storage failing? It happened all the time with mechanical drives because they had moving parts that physically broke. These SSDs just don't do that.

Regardless, what are you doing with this thing? Obviously something very intense if you need all that power in the 15" MBP (even the base model). Clearly you're a professional, that needs a pro level machine? So you're going to buy a $5000 machine (give or take) and you're not going to upgrade the warranty to 3 years for less than another 10% of that ($379)...?

Oh... you'll say you want to keep it for a lot longer than 3 years, right? Well that doesn't make any sense. Who needs the kind of power that's in a $5000 machine today and isn't going to need significantly more power in 3 years? Or looking at that the other way: If what you're buying now for $5000 will still be good enough for you in 5 or 6 years as long as it doesn't break, then why not just buy the $3000 one now and then replace it with another $3000 one in three years (for another three years warranty, so total 6 years from today), and at those prices as long as you get more than $1000 for today's one in three years then you're in front. Sure, your actual numbers might be different, but the point remains no matter what you're getting.

Unless you always need the latest and greatest and you're going to replace it once a year, then buying one of these without AppleCare is insane. And then keeping these things for more than 3 years is also insane. I will never understand why anyone does that, unless they're a student or something and they can only afford the cheapest possible one now and can't afford to replace even that in three years, or maybe someone gives you one you could never have afforded in the first place and you're never going to afford to replace it ever. But if you're talking about a brand new 15" MacBook Pro then you're not in either of those categories.

So yeah... again not meaning to pick on you specifically. But it just doesn't make sense to keep this kind of gear for more than the warranty offers anyway. And if anything goes wrong within the warranty, obviously Apple will fix it for free.

And after the experiences I've had with LG lately with that LG 5K display, compared with experiences I've had with warranty claims with Apple... I can tell you now, Apple's tech & customer support is among the best in any industry (not just its own). If I'm going to have any of my gear break down I want it to be my Apple stuff and not anything else, because of how easily and quickly Apple will sort it out for me, and how crappy the experience is with most other companies. There are a lot of things to hate about Apple at the moment, but their warranties and support are not among them.

Don't buy now what you'll need in 6 years, expecting to keep it that long. Buy, with AppleCare, what will serve you well for 3 years for a lot less $ and replace it then with the money you saved now.

Too hot to think here, but shortly:
I have replaced a storage in all macs that I have owned and many for friends.
It is just so easy and you avoid buying a new mac to get bigger and faster storage.
I'm poor, so I buy used macs. And if I would spend more money on IT, it would be high quality displays (which sadly don't have apple logo on them). To my eyes, the value of used mac has dropped dramatically because you can't upgrade ram & storage. This is also ecological issue. It used to be that expensive professional grade mac could have doubled it's life cycle by upgrades and had a 3rd life in non pro usage.
Just wondering if people will in few years send their Teslas to recycling when warranty expires?
PC tech has advanced slower than before, so I think 5 year lease times for pc's with big companies is getting popular.
And if you look how desktop macs are being "cared for", you need to buy same machine again after 3 years of applecare...
Actually I was thinking about buying a new 13" mbp, but now that we know that they have the old tb controller and therefore no dp1.4, like 15" now has, I'll just wait another year or try to find a used one with 16GB and reasonable price...

 

[nmcordeiro]

will the keyboard warranty coverage for the 2016 and 2017 MBP models be extended to include this new 2018 model?

No because they fixed the keyboard to not get damaged from the dust issue. I have the new 2018 13" and I actually love the keyboard. The travel is fine for me and the sound is actually pretty satisfying.