Apple Launches Apple TV 3.0 Software and iTunes 9.0.2

[bilbo--baggins]

Old white plastic remote in the press release

Interesting that the press release includes photos of the Apple TV with the old white plastic remote.

I was tempted to buy the new remote - in the hope that the buttons work a bit better than the old one (I never know if there is no response due to lag, which is often severe, or that the remote didn't respond). Then I thought it might be an excuse to upgrade from my old 40GB Apple TV (which needs restarting so often I wonder if it has a hardware fault) to get a 160GB one and a new remote.

Has anyone bought a new Apple TV recently that came with the new remotes?

 

[xhambonex]

I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. I wasn't trying to compare products per se, just offering counterpoints on why the Apple TV really isn't overpriced or under featured. Do you really think Apple could sell the Apple TV at a loss? If that's the case you need to go back to business 101. The XBox 360 and PlayStation 3 are priced as they are because of the gaming market and price subsidizes provided either by or to Microsoft and Sony.

In any case, I'll freely admit that the XBox 360 and PlayStation 3 are decent options. But you can't use them to argue that Apple is somehow ripping the consumer off in price or features. There have been a lot of posts from people who insist that Apple either needs to lower the price on the Apple TV or add more features for the same price (i.e. it's overpriced and out of date). However, those claims aren't supported by the offerings from the major competition and in my previous posts I've provided the data to show why that is so from a business and market perspective.

Could Apple lower the price a little and still break even? Probably, but that would hardly be good business sense. Some people apparently don't know that the Apple TV is by far the lowest margin product that Apple currently offers.

Could Apple add significant new features to the Apple TV and hold the current prices? Probably not.

Could Apple increase the price of the Apple TV? Sure and they may if they add more capabilities.

How about a few new features (new hardware design with some mild performance tweaks) at or near the current price? Most likely this will happen within the next year.

Would the addition of significant new features with a concomitant increase in price help the Apple TV? Debatable I think. Particularly if you consider the limitation in the current internet-based, media-streaming market. See the following:

https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/8732115/

What I'm trying to do is bring some factual data to this debate on what Apple should or could do with the Apple TV. It really does no good to create a wish list of features with little thought to the business practicality of such features and "upgrades." Simply wishing it so doesn't justify it or make it so.

Regardless of subsidies, you can pick up an Xbox 360 dirt cheap and get a better experience.

But really, the Apple TV is good if you use iTunes for your media content. I have rented 1 movie and that's it. Took way to long to download and was just an overall pain (on my MBP). Even with streaming, there are MUCH better services out there. A subscription based netflix still dominates the content provided if you are PAYING for this stuff. I wouldn't buy their digital DVDs because I rather control the quality of compression. So yes, buy an ATV if you want to use iTunes. If you don't ever use its content, there are better options.

 

[strike1555]

hope you don't mind that i snipped out all this worthless crap

Your post demonstrates lack of understanding of the basics of economics. The cost to the consumer vs the capabilities is what's being compared to here. You are getting into a completely irrelevant ranting as to costs absorption by MS and Sony. Apparently, you're the one that needs to work on the reading comprehension because you've completely missed the point of failure in your initial post. You spin more than Linda Blair in the exorcist in your posts.

It's rather apparent you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

*facepalm* at the stupidity.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Interesting that the press release includes photos of the Apple TV with the old white plastic remote.

I was tempted to buy the new remote - in the hope that the buttons work a bit better than the old one (I never know if there is no response due to lag, which is often severe, or that the remote didn't respond). Then I thought it might be an excuse to upgrade from my old 40GB Apple TV (which needs restarting so often I wonder if it has a hardware fault) to get a 160GB one and a new remote.

Unless you just really like that remote, I encourage anyone to pick up a universal learning remote, like those offered by Universal Remote Control Inc. They have an TV preset so you get all the functionality of that little Apple remote, but they are also true learning remotes- which means they can pick up the codes for all your other remotes- delivering the "one remote to rule them all" (sorry, with your screen name, I couldn't resist).

And, they have real remote buttons for all of the common functionality.

With a little work, you can pick one of the LCD buttons and make it a "setup" button, which makes it easy to click just one button to then execute a macro to set everything up. For example, want to watch a DVD, put the device in DVD mode, click setup and the macro sets the TV to the proper mode, sets the Receiver to the proper mode, and controls the DVD player. Switch to Satt/Cable, hit that setup button and everything adjusts to optimum.

I've been using this for years and it is fantastic. Those in my household that aren't techies find it very easy as well.

 

[fpnc]

The point is that you are showing retail prices of kit that can output 1080p for $130 (RETAIL), so obviously a next-gen TV could incorporate 1080p and still not go up in price. You're showing devices for $130 (RETAIL) that gives you access to thousands of movies via a Netflix subscription, so obviously a next-gen TV could have a similar deal. There are BD players priced below $150; talk is this Christmas we'll have BD players priced well below $100 (RETAIL). So a next-gen TV could include a BD player.

If we play the game of what TV has that other (better hardware) boxes lack, it's an easy argument to say how great TV is. I'll say it too: THE CURRENT TV IS GREAT FOR WHAT IT DOES NOW.

But, with that admission, I'm sure you can recognize that if WD and Roku's, etc can be sold for profit at substantially less than TV, a next-gen TV could absorb some of the missing hardware advances those products have and still be (profitably) sold at about the price it is right now.

Apple could OWN the space if they would treat their TV hardware initiatives like they just did with the new iMacs or the last round of iPhone- substantially up the hardware features while hanging onto the same price.

Is it a good value priced as is right now? That's an eye of the beholder question. If my TV died today, I'd immediately buy another. I find narrow individual features to be worth the purchase price. For example, I used to pay $300+ for a CD changer, $300+ for a DVD changer, etc.

But short of TV death will I buy another before they add features that can obviously be added as demonstrated by some of the very examples you cite? Absolutely not. It is way past due for a hardware refresh. It seems the market recognizes this, which contributes to why it is a "hobby" rather than another "leg of the table".

Ask yourselves this: if Apple had just rolled out an "open" TV 1080p with many of the hack features (features the current one CAN do that Apple chooses not to make standard) enabled, and at least "open" options for 3rd parties to offer adds-ons like a BD player, DVR (elgato) functionality, etc (for those that want such features), an TV app store, etc, what would probably be THE present from Apple under the tree this year?

Just writing it down has my money burning a hole in my pocket.

Just in case you are wondering. I'm not going to take the time to provide any point-by-point rebuttals to your recent posts. You can draw your own conclusions as to why (and it's not because you are being rude or harsh to my judgments, in fact I agree with you on a few points).

If anyone cares to take the time they can just backup and follow my previous posts (which I think already contain enough information to support my case).

By the way, I purchased a WD TV Live about two weeks ago and while it is not totally worthless it pales in comparison to the Apple TV (and the WD TV Live is a recently new product). I also own a PlayStation 3 and while great for Blu-ray and good for games I don't use it nearly as much as my Apple TV (as you might guess, I don't spend a lot of time playing video games). I suspect that we might actually agree on these points which kind of makes the value position on the Apple TV a little better than what some people are claiming.

 

[fpnc]

from strike1555...[hope you don't mind that i snipped out all this worthless crap]...

Your post demonstrates lack of understanding of the basics of economics. The cost to the consumer vs the capabilities is what's being compared to here. You are getting into a completely irrelevant ranting as to costs absorption by MS and Sony. Apparently, you're the one that needs to work on the reading comprehension because you've completely missed the point of failure in your initial post. You spin more than Linda Blair in the exorcist in your posts.

It's rather apparent you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

*facepalm* at the stupidity.

Just for some context and to be fair I just took a look at some of your posts in other threads. It seems you have a common thread in your responses and arguments. Just wondering...

 

[MorphingDragon]

I used the link you supplied and it clearly shows the 360 is in 2nd place under the Wii with the PS3 in dead last in lifetime sales.

Wii had 56 million, 360 had 33 million and the PS3 had 26 million.

So how was he wrong?

He was wrong because he was saying that the PS3 is going into oblivion even though current sales are above the 360.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

By the way, I purchased a WD TV Live about two weeks ago and while it is not totally worthless it pales in comparison to the Apple TV (and the WD TV Live is a recently new product). I also own a PlayStation 3 and while great for Blu-ray and good for games I don't use it nearly as much as my Apple TV (as you might guess, I don't spend a lot of time playing video games). I suspect that we might actually agree on these points which kind of makes the value position on the Apple TV a little better than what some people are claiming.

Yes, in case my various posts are not clear, I'm not saying these other devices you listed are better than TV. I think TV taken on the whole is still the best of the lot (around the same price). My points are all TV vs. next-gen TV, and how it is nearly an absolute that a next-gen could incorporate a number of coveted hardware advances (without trading off any of the other stuff that makes it great) without having to raise the price. Gear like WD's stuff and Roku's, plus BD players dropping below $100 retail prove that a next-gen TV could absorb key coveted hardware that would make it that much better than it is.

All of my arguments find fault squarely with Apple lacking the will (so far) to seize this big opportunity. I don't see these wishes as beyond Apple's abilities, nor in conflict with Apple's primary business model (which is selling HARDWARE, not iTunes content), nor having to wait on Studios adding 1080i or 1080p content to iTunes first, nor having to wait for bigger broadband pipes, nor the other excuses people make as to why TV is THE right way forward "as is".

And I no longer buy that the price would have to go way up to incorporate the most coveted features, since there is plenty of evidence that other boxes can be built with one or more of those features, and sold profitably at retail prices of below $100, $130 and so on.

Furthermore, Apple itself should realize- I would think they do- that the iPhone app store is a huge factor in growing the world demand for the iPhone. Thus, an "open" platform flexible to allow software and hardware add-on extensions to enhance functionality is only good for growing HARDWARE sales. Do the same with a next-gen TV and take that whole market from likes of WD, Roku, etc. That market- by the way- is probably way bigger than the iphone+ipod market.

Apple doesn't believe BD is the future? Leave it for others to develop a BD add-on (just like we can add hard drives, DVD and BD players to Macs now). Apple doesn't believe DVR functionality makes sense? Fine, I'm sure Elgato would love to build a plugin for TV and see how big that market really is. Apple has shown that they can stand a plethora of hardware partners building add-ons for Macs, iPhone and iPods, and pretty much every ad they run these days for iPhone & iPod showcases cool (add on) apps much more so than those ads pitch the device itself. So why not give the market what it wants? Build in the coveted wishes yourself Apple, or open up your little box enough that others could deliver the stuff you don't want to develop yourself.

Then, a next-gen TV just needs a core hardware upgrade for 1080p, and the rest of what BUYERS want could be realized via (open) software upgrades and partner hardware add-ons. If WD can deliver a 1080p box sans harddrive for $130 retail... and if a BD player manufacturer can deliver a BD player for less than $100 retail (BD playback hardware being more expensive than a smallish capacity hard drive)... I'm pretty sure Apple could deliver a 1080p TV with a hard drive (and all of the existing features) for the current price, make an Apple profit- probably a full Apple profit- and we could all live happily ever after.

 

[xhambonex]

Yes, in case my various posts are not clear, I'm not saying these other devices you listed are better than TV. I think TV taken on the whole is still the best of the lot (around the same price). My points are all TV vs. next-gen TV, and how it is nearly an absolute that a next-gen could incorporate a number of coveted hardware advances (without trading off any of the other stuff that makes it great) without having to raise the price. Gear like WD's stuff and Roku's, plus BD players dropping below $100 retail prove that a next-gen TV could absorb key coveted hardware that would make it that much better than it is.

All of my arguments find fault squarely with Apple lacking the will (so far) to seize this big opportunity. I don't see these wishes as beyond Apple's abilities, nor in conflict with Apple's primary business model (which is selling HARDWARE, not iTunes content), nor having to wait on Studios adding 1080i or 1080p content to iTunes first, nor having to wait for bigger broadband pipes, nor the other excuses people make as to why TV is THE right way forward "as is".

And I no longer buy that the price would have to go way up to incorporate the most coveted features, since there is plenty of evidence that other boxes can be built with one or more of those features, and sold profitably at retail prices of below $100, $130 and so on.

Furthermore, Apple itself should realize- I would think they do- that the iPhone app store is a huge factor in growing the world demand for the iPhone. Thus, an "open" platform flexible to allow software and hardware add-on extensions to enhance functionality is only good for growing HARDWARE sales. Do the same with a next-gen TV and take that whole market from likes of WD, Roku, etc. That market- by the way- is probably way bigger than the iphone+ipod market.

Apple doesn't believe BD is the future? Leave it for others to develop a BD add-on (just like we can add hard drives, DVD and BD players to Macs now). Apple doesn't believe DVR functionality makes sense? Fine, I'm sure Elgato would love to build a plugin for TV and see how big that market really is. Apple has shown that they can stand a plethora of hardware partners building add-ons for Macs, iPhone and iPods, and pretty much every ad they run these days for iPhone & iPod sells cool (add on) apps much more so than those ads pitch the device itself. So why not give the market what it wants? Build in the coveted wishes yourself Apple, or open up your little box enough that others could deliver the stuff you don't want develop yourself.

Then, a next-gen TV just needs a core hardware upgrade for 1080p, and the rest of what BUYERS want could be realized via (open) software upgrades and partner hardware add-ons. If WD can deliver a 1080p box sans harddrive for $130 retail... and if a BD player manufacturer can deliver a BD player for less than $100 retail (BD playback hardware being more expensive than a smallish capacity hard drive)... I'm pretty sure Apple could deliver a 1080p TV with a hard drive (and all of the existing features) for the current price, make an Apple profit- probably a full Apple profit- and we could all live happily ever after.

Outputing to 1080p is easy. That's being done no problem by lesser hardware. The real issue is the lack of 1080p content on iTunes. I don't know how extensive it gets on the ATV but theres a grand total of 4 HD movies on iTunes when I'm on my mac. I hope theres more available when using the ATV but even then the quality isn't necessarily the greatest.

Keep in mind they are in a market that is already dominated by consoles. Whether they like it or not I can pick up a PS3 or 360 for the same price or less and have access to a much deeper movie database. My PS3 was $230, I get 1080p, I get wifi, I get Blu-ray, PSN movies, netflix, a full web browser, and on top of all that I get games. The xbox is the same minus the blu-ray and it is getting instant 1080p movies this fall (very soon).

I'm not sold on iTunes content offers, not with netflix, xbl marketplace, psn, or even free web content from hulu, comedy central, and all other places. Hardware is not the focus here, we are past that technology, the Zune HD, a handheld, can output the same quality as the ATV...

The ATV is centered around iTunes, without it there would be no hope for that device whatsoever. Yes its in need of an update, hardware wise, and they need to rethink their market approach because currently Boxee is the best solution for an ATV.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Outputing to 1080p is easy. That's being done no problem by lesser hardware. The real issue is the lack of 1080p content on iTunes. I don't know how extensive it gets on the ATV but theres a grand total of 4 HD movies on iTunes when I'm on my mac. I hope theres more available when using the ATV but even then the quality isn't necessarily the greatest.

There is quite a bit more than just 4 HD movies available to TV at any given time (but Apple could work with the Studios to do a lot better on this particular matter).

Keep in mind they are in a market that is already dominated by consoles. Whether they like it or not I can pick up a PS3 or 360 for the same price or less and have access to a much deeper movie database. My PS3 was $230, I get 1080p, I get wifi, I get Blu-ray, PSN movies, netflix, a full web browser, and on top of all that I get games. The xbox is the same minus the blu-ray and it is getting instant 1080p movies this fall (very soon).

Those are players in the same space, but from what I've seen their UIs are not nearly as user-friendly and intuitive "for dummies." And I'm not sure the mainstream CE market would want to buy a gaming machine to get the functionality of TV. Sure, there is a market of gamers, but I would suggest there is a big(ger) market for non-gamers, or maybe wii-level casual gamers who might not want PS3 or an xbox to mostly use for functionality like the current TV offers.

I do see way too many complaints about the UIs of the gaming rigs to believe they are a serious competitor yet (for the big crowd of non-gamers). BUT if Microsoft or Sony would basically rip off the functionality, reach, and scope of the TV functionality so that those devices are basically the next-gen TV I keep longing for, my money is ready to buy.

The ATV is centered around iTunes, without it there would be no hope for that device whatsoever. Yes its in need of an update, hardware wise, and they need to rethink their market approach because currently Boxee is the best solution for an ATV.

Boxee is also lacking- IMO- in terms of UI. I would argue that it is that simple, elegant UI that gives the TV the potential that I see for it. It wins- IMO- for all the non-techies. Get your grandma to try to deal with Boxee, PS3 or xbox UI- without you there to offer the step-by-step- to really illustrate my point.

AND, while TV is closely tied to iTunes, I wouldn't say "no hope" without it (assuming you mean iTunes store content like rentals & sales). In my own case, I very rarely rent or buy anything from iTunes, but I find the TV enormously useful for all that is does largely detached from the iTunes store.

 

[MowingDevil]

Exactly, I am with you on this one. So many people claim to be holding off buying an Apple TV - for reasons of lacking features etc. But that's not really the truth of the matter - they are just making bogus excuses why they don't buy one for themselves. "I'd get it, but only when it supports 1080i" "Oh it has had 1080i for a while now? Oh, well, then I'll get it when it is has PVR functions" - that kind of impossible customer to please because they really just don't have any interest in the key functions. Some guys have no use for displaying photo's on the TV, and therefore do not appreciate that functionality.

Get Apple TV if you want to see your iPhoto on the TV and your own movies on the TV - for that it's totally worth it.

As a bonus, you can watch YouTube, video Podcasts, Rent movies (big bonus), and play music.

I'm waiting and make no bones about it. Got a problem with that?
I've gone out and purchased outdated Apple products before and got (temporarily) burned....for example the Time Capsule. I purchased the way out of date TC only to have the update occur 10 days or so later. Fortunately I was able to exchange it for the updated model. I just know if I shell out for the TV they'll update it shortly afterwards.

I'm waiting for a new model that can handle 1080p w/ any hacks; has faster newer components and is free of the dropout issue alot on here have been experiencing. I'm in no rush so I'll wait for a bit and if they don't update it soon enough I'll either buy the LaCie Cinema or the WD box. There's clearly no excuse for them not to update the thing; everyone else has and they're getting left in the dust. For the money its out of date and overpriced. Not a good combination. BluRay would be nice but its not a deal breaker for me. Currently I can already display my movies & pictures on my HDTV via a jump drive if I like....it also has wireless capabilities that I haven't pursued yet since I'm hopeful that Apple will bring this product up to speed in the near future.

 

[xhambonex]

There is quite a bit more than just 4 HD movies available to TV at any given time (but Apple could work with the Studios to do a lot better on this particular matter).

Those are players in the same space, but from what I've seen their UIs are not nearly as user-friendly and intuitive "for dummies." And I'm not sure the mainstream CE market would want to buy a gaming machine to get the functionality of TV. Sure, there is a market of gamers, but I would suggest there is a big(ger) market for non-gamers, or maybe wii-level casual gamers who might not want PS3 or an xbox to mostly use for functionality like the current TV offers.

I do see way too many complaints about the UIs of the gaming rigs to believe they are a serious competitor yet (for the big crowd of non-gamers). BUT if Microsoft or Sony would basically rip off the functionality, reach, and scope of the TV functionality so that those devices are basically the next-gen TV I keep longing for, my money is ready to buy.

Boxee is also lacking- IMO- in terms of UI. I would argue that it is that simple, elegant UI that gives the TV the potential that I see for it. It wins- IMO- for all the non-techies. Get your grandma to try to deal with Boxee, PS3 or xbox UI- without you there to offer the step-by-step- to really illustrate my point.

AND, while TV is closely tied to iTunes, I wouldn't say "no hope" without it (assuming you mean iTunes store content like rentals & sales). In my own case, I very rarely rent or buy anything from iTunes, but I find the TV enormously useful for all that is does largely detached from the iTunes store.

Console UI isn't exactly difficult to deal with. No its not Apple, but I think the icons are very straight forward. I don't have a grandma so I can't really try that out, but yes I am pretty sure she wouldn't get it and would comprehend Apple's UI better.

But overall yes, Apple is known for better UI lesser hardware features. I think Boxee is fairly easy to deal with, XBMC is VERY straight forward and I would argue a nettop with XBMC booting is the best choice at the moment.

If we are looking for a device that is there for streaming media and purchasing content (whether subscription based, rental, or purchasing) iTunes is falling behind. For $230 I'll pick up that PS3 and deal with a manageable UI (not amazing) and get blu-ray, netflix, and PSN movie content. Even if I don't like gaming, the device is priced aggressively enough that you wouldn't have to even use that feature. I bought it almost solely for blu-ray and streaming media. I could care less about renting movies, that's why I have netflix.

Its not a bad product, it just needs some love.

 

[fpnc]

Note this comment attributed to Apple executives at a recent analyst briefing.

After music, video content is expected to be the next "exploding" opportunity, but requires overcoming industry rights dysfunctionality, competing with subsidies (cable box, video), and developing the right consumer "offer". Apple TV, while still a "hobby", is well positioned to benefit from evolving market dynamics.

Rights dysfunctionality? Competing with subsidies? Developing the right consumer offer?

I actually hadn't read from this headline on MacRumors until a few minutes ago but I was immediately struck by the similarities between what Apple executives are apparently thinking and what I have been suggesting in some of my posts.

Now that last -- "developing the right consumer offer" -- is obviously open to wide interpretation but I maintain that future Apple TVs will remain pretty close to the current hardware offering. It's basically a software issue. Give the hardware a few minor tweaks, continue to upgrade the software, and work very hard on broadening the content availability both here and in foreign (to the U.S.) markets.

 

[dwhittington]

Multiple Apple TVs - New Feature

I love the "speakers" option allowing streaming of audio from one Apple TV to another. I have two ATVs and find this handy to be able to play audio throughout multiple "zones" in my house.

 

[CQd44]

There is quite a bit more than just 4 HD movies available to TV at any given time (but Apple could work with the Studios to do a lot better on this particular matter).


Those are players in the same space, but from what I've seen their UIs are not nearly as user-friendly and intuitive "for dummies." And I'm not sure the mainstream CE market would want to buy a gaming machine to get the functionality of TV. Sure, there is a market of gamers, but I would suggest there is a big(ger) market for non-gamers, or maybe wii-level casual gamers who might not want PS3 or an xbox to mostly use for functionality like the current TV offers.

I do see way too many complaints about the UIs of the gaming rigs to believe they are a serious competitor yet (for the big crowd of non-gamers). BUT if Microsoft or Sony would basically rip off the functionality, reach, and scope of the TV functionality so that those devices are basically the next-gen TV I keep longing for, my money is ready to buy.


Boxee is also lacking- IMO- in terms of UI. I would argue that it is that simple, elegant UI that gives the TV the potential that I see for it. It wins- IMO- for all the non-techies. Get your grandma to try to deal with Boxee, PS3 or xbox UI- without you there to offer the step-by-step- to really illustrate my point.

AND, while TV is closely tied to iTunes, I wouldn't say "no hope" without it (assuming you mean iTunes store content like rentals & sales). In my own case, I very rarely rent or buy anything from iTunes, but I find the TV enormously useful for all that is does largely detached from the iTunes store.

The many little apple symbols made me laugh.

 

[xhambonex]

Note this comment attributed to Apple executives at a recent analyst briefing.


Rights dysfunctionality? Competing with subsidies? Developing the right consumer offer?

I actually hadn't read from this headline on MacRumors until a few minutes ago but I was immediately struck by the similarities between what Apple executives are apparently thinking and what I have been suggesting in some of my posts.

Now that last -- "developing the right consumer offer" -- is obviously open to wide interpretation but I maintain that future Apple TVs will remain pretty close to the current hardware offering. It's basically a software issue. Give the hardware a few minor tweaks, continue to upgrade the software, and work very hard on broadening the content availability both here and in foreign (to the U.S.) markets.

It's pretty obvious, iTunes is nice, but it is lacking diversity of content and more important quantity and quality especially in the HD department.

 

[mosx]

Thats why the PS3 is currently outselling the 360.
http://vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?con...All&cons3=X360&reg3=All&start=40055&end=40111

You're arguing opinions as facts. Thats why your arguments never seem to hold up by themselves.

Oh the PS3 outselling the Xbox360 for a couple of months. Isn't this a repeat of 2008? And 2007? And 2006?

The PS3 has had a couple of months of hot sales outselling the Xbox360 every year for the past couple of years. Overall it means nothing because the Xbox360 is still ahead by several million units in every country except Japan.

If you want to look at real sales numbers, look at game sales. Thats where I was getting my "flop" comments from. Not opinion, but actual sales numbers you're free to look up yourself.

The PS3 attach rate (meaning average number of games sold per console) is a clear indication that the fact majority of PS3 owners only own a couple of games at best, and they mostly use it as a media center/blu-ray player. It's probably safe bet to say that a good amount of people exist that own a PS3 simply for its blu-ray and media capabilities, yet don't own a single PS3 game. I know of quite a few over at AVS who are in that exact situation.

The Xbox360 attach rate clearly shows that people buy it to play play play.

And again, look at the individual game sales. Nearly every single major PS3 exclusive has been a sales flop. MGS 4 stayed on the almost (not quite) top of the charts for about a week or so then dropped off the face of the Earth. Games like "LittleBigPlanet", "Lair", "Heavenly Sword", and even the much hyped "Resistance" have failed to sell the numbers their hype would suggest they should have sold. The first "Uncharted" was a total sales flop. We'll see how the second one does, but its pretty clear that its more hype than sales too.

While you look at big Xbox360 games and when they're good, they sell. They sell in the millions. Even multi-platform games sell drastically better on the Xbox360 than the PS3.

Like I said, its pretty clear that the PS3 is being bought to be used as a media center more than a game player. That situation won't improve as long as Sony continues to be arrogant about the situation and their system ("We have 10 year life spans!" "We want people to think they'll work extra hours to be able to afford one!") and the games continue to be sub-par. Look at Gran Turismo 5. Sure, the car models look great. But talk about a piss poor damage system, not to mention the "bloom" HDR effect turned up to 1000% to hide the fact that assets are being reused from GT "HD" which was just GT4's 1080i assets cleaned up a bit.

On another note, the Apple TV is in desperate need of a hardware update. The fact that its limited to 720p 5Mbps video really hurts its cause. Thats just not good enough today. it wasn't even good enough at release.

Oh and why do people keep saying that the Apple TV "upscales" content to 1080p if your TV supports it? The Apple TV can't upscale anything! It just blows up/enlarges the picture to your native resolution. Upscaling is a whole other ballgame that the Apple TV is incapable of.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Oh the PS3 outselling the Xbox360 for a couple of months. Isn't this a repeat of 2008? And 2007? And 2006?

The PS3 has had a couple of months of hot sales outselling the Xbox360 every year for the past couple of years. Overall it means nothing because the Xbox360 is still ahead by several million units in every country except Japan.

If you want to look at real sales numbers, look at game sales. Thats where I was getting my "flop" comments from. Not opinion, but actual sales numbers you're free to look up yourself.

The PS3 attach rate (meaning average number of games sold per console) is a clear indication that the fact majority of PS3 owners only own a couple of games at best, and they mostly use it as a media center/blu-ray player. It's probably safe bet to say that a good amount of people exist that own a PS3 simply for its blu-ray and media capabilities, yet don't own a single PS3 game. I know of quite a few over at AVS who are in that exact situation.

The Xbox360 attach rate clearly shows that people buy it to play play play.

And again, look at the individual game sales. Nearly every single major PS3 exclusive has been a sales flop. MGS 4 stayed on the almost (not quite) top of the charts for about a week or so then dropped off the face of the Earth. Games like "LittleBigPlanet", "Lair", "Heavenly Sword", and even the much hyped "Resistance" have failed to sell the numbers their hype would suggest they should have sold. The first "Uncharted" was a total sales flop. We'll see how the second one does, but its pretty clear that its more hype than sales too.

While you look at big Xbox360 games and when they're good, they sell. They sell in the millions. Even multi-platform games sell drastically better on the Xbox360 than the PS3.

Like I said, its pretty clear that the PS3 is being bought to be used as a media center more than a game player. That situation won't improve as long as Sony continues to be arrogant about the situation and their system ("We have 10 year life spans!" "We want people to think they'll work extra hours to be able to afford one!") and the games continue to be sub-par. Look at Gran Turismo 5. Sure, the car models look great. But talk about a piss poor damage system, not to mention the "bloom" HDR effect turned up to 1000% to hide the fact that assets are being reused from GT "HD" which was just GT4's 1080i assets cleaned up a bit.

On another note, the Apple TV is in desperate need of a hardware update. The fact that its limited to 720p 5Mbps video really hurts its cause. Thats just not good enough today. it wasn't even good enough at release.

Oh and why do people keep saying that the Apple TV "upscales" content to 1080p if your TV supports it? The Apple TV can't upscale anything! It just blows up/enlarges the picture to your native resolution. Upscaling is a whole other ballgame that the Apple TV is incapable of.

Your overly winded, wide spectrum posts suggest your bias. I never argued for a second about the games but of the Media Capabilities. In fact you agree, so we need this conversation no longer.

 

[jaw04005]

Regardless of subsidies, you can pick up an Xbox 360 dirt cheap and get a better experience.

A better experience? Maybe more playback capabilities, but the XBOX has a horrible media GUI unless you plan on using it as an Extender device (which requires a Windows PC running 24/7).

It reminds me somewhat of Windows 3.1’s file browser (let’s keep opening folder after folder until we find our media file). The PS3 is similar. Really, Sony and Microsoft — how hard is it to create a media GUI?

 

[VoR]

A better experience? Maybe more playback capabilities, but the XBOX has a horrible media GUI unless you plan on using it as an Extender device (which requires a Windows PC running 24/7).

It reminds me somewhat of Windows 3.1’s file browser. The PS3 is similar. Really, Sony and Microsoft — how hard is it to create a media GUI?

They're probably slightly wary of people buying these machines just for streaming media (like the original xbox), and some genius accountant has decided that it's a bad idea, subsidised or not.
That and the fact that I've never seen a 'really' decent commercial media centre machine/gui/etc from any company, incompetence?

An ion based nettop/cheap system and xbmc is the best solution imo, suits me just fine.

 

[alent1234]

Even LG makes a blu Ray player for $300 that suppports netflix and a bunch f other online services

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Note this comment attributed to Apple executives at a recent analyst briefing.


Rights dysfunctionality? Competing with subsidies? Developing the right consumer offer?

I actually hadn't read from this headline on MacRumors until a few minutes ago but I was immediately struck by the similarities between what Apple executives are apparently thinking and what I have been suggesting in some of my posts.

Now that last -- "developing the right consumer offer" -- is obviously open to wide interpretation but I maintain that future Apple TVs will remain pretty close to the current hardware offering. It's basically a software issue. Give the hardware a few minor tweaks, continue to upgrade the software, and work very hard on broadening the content availability both here and in foreign (to the U.S.) markets.

Yes, I saw that comment too. But I hope you are wrong in your interpretation. If future TVs remain pretty close to the current hardware offering, they don't get any new TV buying from me. Apparently others too refuse to buy a next-gen TV unless it is at least 1080p capable. Still others want certain other features in the box or as "open" add-on options before they'll spend their money on TV.

So if the future of TV is just about the same hardware and mostly software tweaks, it seems a fair amount of (new) money is going to stay in buyer pockets... or be spent on someone else's version of this kind of thing.

I'm going to bet you are wrong here- that Apple must realize how their hardware platform is slipping too far behind to maximize the number of buyers of this little box. Apple is about "wow" factor marketing, and you can't wow (full on) when you get too far behind in tech hardware.

 

[xhambonex]

A better experience? Maybe more playback capabilities, but the XBOX has a horrible media GUI unless you plan on using it as an Extender device (which requires a Windows PC running 24/7).

It reminds me somewhat of Windows 3.1’s file browser (let’s keep opening folder after folder until we find our media file). The PS3 is similar. Really, Sony and Microsoft — how hard is it to create a media GUI?

I wouldn't call it horrible, but you're only talking about your own content. The marketplace is very straight forward. Your own content is all indexed by title, its not pretty, but that's not to say it doesn't get the job done. I use Connect360 and it automatically just syncs photo, music, and movies from whatever folder I want. So I don't have to go through folder after folder.

The PS3 is just a list, though they have visual previews of every movie.

I never claimed it to be a great UI, but in terms of overall experience, UI and content provided plus capabilities, yes its a better experience.

 

[shiseiryu1]

Speaking of PS3...

Just in case you are wondering. I'm not going to take the time to provide any point-by-point rebuttals to your recent posts. You can draw your own conclusions as to why (and it's not because you are being rude or harsh to my judgments, in fact I agree with you on a few points).

If anyone cares to take the time they can just backup and follow my previous posts (which I think already contain enough information to support my case).

By the way, I purchased a WD TV Live about two weeks ago and while it is not totally worthless it pales in comparison to the Apple TV (and the WD TV Live is a recently new product). I also own a PlayStation 3 and while great for Blu-ray and good for games I don't use it nearly as much as my Apple TV (as you might guess, I don't spend a lot of time playing video games). I suspect that we might actually agree on these points which kind of makes the value position on the Apple TV a little better than what some people are claiming.

Reading this reminded me of all the ppl who say they don't need an AppleTV because they have a PS3. I don't know how the slim PS3 is, but my original PS3 is noisy when the fans turn on...and they tend to crank up even if I'm not even playing a game. The AppleTV is silent which is another reason that I prefer it over the PS3 (user interface is another reason).

 

[xhambonex]

Reading this reminded me of all the ppl who say they don't need an AppleTV because they have a PS3. I don't know how the slim PS3 is, but my original PS3 is noisy when the fans turn on...and they tend to crank up even if I'm not even playing a game. The AppleTV is silent which is another reason that I prefer it over the PS3 (user interface is another reason).

PS3 slim doesn't have a fan so it doesn't have that issue. Even my phat PS3 isn't loud EVER. Even my xbox isn't distracting.