Apple Limiting Alternative App Stores and Payments to EU Due to Malware, Fraud and Scam Risks

[AndiG]

Or what happens if several high profile incidents occur?

You think of a user that installs malware from a 3rd party AppStore. Or do you mean an incident that the complete Apple infrastructure gets hacked like „Operation Triangulation“?

Well if an iPhone user installs 3rd party AppStores/Sideloading and installs malware, it is his own fault. Simple as that.

 

[I7guy]

You think of a user that installs malware from a 3rd party AppStore. Or do you mean an incident that the complete Apple infrastructure gets hacked like „Operation Triangulation“?

Well if an iPhone user installs 3rd party AppStores/Sideloading and installs malware, it is his own fault. Simple as that.

Of course, it’s on the user. Not so much that the eu made the attack vector much easier.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Folks

Third party app store Apps still have to be notarized by Apple

There is absolutely no risk or safety concern any more than downloading from the Mac App Store or even the iOS App Store honestly.

The "concerns" here are complete FUD

 

[I7guy]

Folks

Third party app store Apps still have to be notarized by Apple

There is absolutely no risk or safety concern any more than downloading from the Mac App Store or even the iOS App Store honestly.

The "concerns" here are complete FUD

So apples concerns about additional security risk are FUD? They risk public humiliation by actually having the brass tacks to suggest FUD? Makes no sense.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I'm not sure how some of you leave your house with this level of unfounded fear and paranoia

 

[bousozoku]

Come the heck on.

Linux is perfectly secure without a limited store.

Which major applications are on a Linux distribution and how many times have they been cloned by scammers?

 

[Charon_Sin]

Yes protect us with the 30% commission 😂

What is the markup on a t-shirt at Target. If I make T-Shirts and sell them to Target for $10 and they turn around and sell it for $15 then they made money and I made money. Target displays the T-shirt. I wouldn’t have made anything if Target didn’t put it on a rack. I can’t get mad at Target because they made $5. I can’t tell Target that I want them to buy it from me for $14 but then sell it for $15. Developers are just mad because they want more money.

 

[turbineseaplane]

What is the markup on a t-shirt at Target.

You can stop right there, as shirt sellers can sell at thousands of physical and online stores.

There's no comparison to be made here between that and selling on iOS and/or Android (only two choices, and really just one if you are an iOS specialized dev)

 

[bousozoku]

You can stop right there, as shirt sellers can sell at thousands of physical and online stores.

There's no comparison to be made here between that and selling on iOS and/or Android (only two choices, and really just one if you are an iOS specialized dev)

I wonder why so many physical stores are going out of business because they can't make money selling products for almost no profit while trying to pay rent, employees, and vendors.

 

[Velli]

I for one am not going to use any third party app store or payment method, except for the streaming services I already run. Even if on the surface it would cost me money. Not because of security worries, but because it’s a lot easier to manage everything in one place, especially when you want to cancel subscriptions. I have probably spent hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars over the years on subscriptions that I forgot to cancel. I tried spending hours on an international paid phone call to cancel a Washington Post membership. I’m done with all that BS - it’s app store or nothing for me. I am boycotting any app that does not allow me to pay through App store.

 

[Velli]

Isn't this bad parenting, and not a tech issue?

No.

 

[Velli]

Groceries are sold in competitive markets.
The grocery store will set their mark-up according to market conditions - not unilaterally impose it on suppliers.

So does Apple! It’s just that the “market conditions” is that they can get away with a pretty high margin, because they make the best product. Just like 7-11 can get away with a higher margin than Target on the same bottle of Pepsi, because they are just around the corner.

High margin does not in itself prove that competition does not exist.

 

[Velli]

Business is when you offer services and then get paid for it.

What Apple does — whole idea of taxing everything (like Spotify or indie devs) with up to 30%, while neither customers nor service providers are ok with paying that — is called fraud.

I am ok with paying 30%. I have on several occations done it knowing there was a cheaper option, because I like to manage my subscriptions in one place. And if I could go to Android and save 30% on every single purchase, I still wouldn’t do it. Just like I didn’t buy an Android to save 600 bucks on the hardware.

Calling it “tax” is already ridiculous. No reason to hyperbole it into “fraud”. Accept the margin, of get the hell out of my shop.

 

[Velli]

Really bizarre how Americans, who are all about capitalism and hate even the slightest hint of socialism, clap and cheer when corporations remove choice and hinder free market competition. Americans in this thread actually celebrating that they don't get to make their own choices lmao

What’s bizarre is how “Americans” complain about the high margins that is sometimes the result of the free market, when it’s them paying it, and not collecting it.

I want everyone to have free choice, including the store owner.

 

[Velli]

You can stop right there, as shirt sellers can sell at thousands of physical and online stores.

There's no comparison to be made here between that and selling on iOS and/or Android (only two choices, and really just one if you are an iOS specialized dev)

I actually disagree that there are only two choices. Android does not to my knowledge prohibit Samsung, Huawei, Oneplus etc to have their own app stores. Apple does not have one competitor, they have tens of competitors. They just all chose the same sub-supplier, Android and Play Store. Which, by the way, is NOT the case in the world’s largest (by number of people) market.

Apple’s competitor is not Android, it is Samsung etc.

“If you are an iOS specialized dev” You chose do be that, because the so-called outrageous margin resulted in a more profitable market for you, the developer.

 

[AndiG]

So does Apple! It’s just that the “market conditions” is that they can get away with a pretty high margin, because they make the best product. Just like 7-11 can get away with a higher margin than Target on the same bottle of Pepsi, because they are just around the corner.

High margin does not in itself prove that competition does not exist.

You guys don‘t get it


- Imagine you build an app
- it sells like hot cake
- background services eat a ton of money
- maintaining and improving the app costs a ton of money
- Apple fees are super expensive

A year later
- Apple copies your App
- But Apple does not have to pay fees for the ApoStore

Apple is gatekeeper and competitor at the same time and this is anti competitive

 

[Velli]

You guys don‘t get it


- Imagine you build an app
- it sells like hot cake
- background services eat a ton of money
- maintaining and improving the app costs a ton of money
- Apple fees are super expensive

A year later
- Apple copies your App
- But Applr does not have to pay fees for the ApoStore

Apple is gatekeeper and competitor at the same time and this is ant competitive

Target does not have own-branded products? None of these own-branded products are cheap knock-offs of someone else’s invention, that someone spent money on developing?

If Apple “copied” your app, you can sue them (yes, I understand they have better lawyers than you, but that’s not the law’s fault). If they made their version of a concept you invented, that’s competition. Just like you didn’t copy Apple just because you made a smartphone, unless you actually copied Apple’s design (which some did, and do).

You still decided to develop for iOS, because you saw that as the best investment of your time, even with the risk of being “copied”, by Apple or by anyone else.

It’s not that I think everything Apple does is great, not even close. But whining that Apple created a profitable (for you) platform is ridiculous. I don’t see any Indie developer making more money on iOS by keeping 100% of the revenue but having to find their customers themselves. Epic, Spotify, maybe.

Most of the reasonable Indie devs I’m talking to are much more concerned about the fact they don’t have direct access to their customers, for instance to provide refunds etc, than about the (usually) 15% margin.

Let’s get real. The complaints are from end users thinking they are overpaying. Not from the majority of devs.

Edit: To prove I’m not just Pro-Apple: The thing that ACTUALLY needs to be regulated is that Apple is earning billions from apps exploiting gambling addicts who are addicted to IAP games. Betting apps come with addiction warnings. Candy Crush does not.

This will not be solved by reducing margins, or diversifying stores.

 

[AndiG]

Target does not have own-branded products? None of these own-branded products are cheap knock-offs of someone else’s invention, that someone spent money on developing?

If Apple “copied” your app, you can sue them (yes, I understand they have better lawyers than you, but that’s not the law’s fault). If they made their version of a concept you invented, that’s competition. Just like you didn’t copy Apple just because you made a smartphone, unless you actually copied Apple’s design (which some did, and do).

You still decided to develop for iOS, because you saw that as the best investment of your time, even with the risk of being “copied”, by Apple or by anyone else.

It’s not that I think everything Apple does is great, not even close. But whining that Apple created a profitable (for you) platform is ridiculous. I don’t see any Indie developer making more money on iOS by keeping 100% of the revenue but having to find their customers themselves. Epic, Spotify, maybe.

Most of the reasonable Indie devs I’m talking to are much more concerned about the fact they don’t have direct access to their customers, for instance to provide refunds etc, than about the (usually) 15% margin.

Let’s get real. The complaints are from end users thinking they are overpaying. Not from the majority of devs.

Edit: To prove I’m not just Pro-Apple: The thing that ACTUALLY needs to be regulated is that Apple is earning billions from apps exploiting gambling addicts who are addicted to IAP games. Betting apps come with addiction warnings. Candy Crush does not.

This will not be solved by reducing margins, or diversifying stores.

You know e.g. „Tile“ do you?

There is a long list of Apps and ideas Apple copied. To solve this problem, either the access to the Appstore has to be free for everyone or Apple has to be split up, so e.g. Apple Music becomes an oen company competing with Spotify.

 

[Velli]

You know e.g. „Tile“ do you?

No.

There is a long list of Apps and ideas Apple copied. To solve this problem, either the access to the Appstore has to be free for everyone or Apple has to be split up, so e.g. Apple Music becomes an oen company competing with Spotify.

It’s not illegal to copy an idea. It’s illegal to copy a design.

My point is: Competing with the store owner’s own brands is not an App store problem. It is a universal problem. You just happen to apparently be more exposed to it with software (whereas in my line of business I compete with this in the hardware space). You don’t just arbitrarily get to decide that Apple can’t do it but Target can.

Also, Spotify owns some of their own content. Don’t tell me they don’t have algorithms that try to push you towards their own content rather than outside content.

 

[AndiG]

No.

It’s not illegal to copy an idea. It’s illegal to copy a design.

My point is: Competing with the store owner’s own brands is not an App store problem. It is a universal problem. You just happen to apparently be more exposed to it with software (whereas in my line of business I compete with this in the hardware space). You don’t just arbitrarily get to decide that Apple can’t do it but Target can.

Also, Spotify owns some of their own content. Don’t tell me they don’t have algorithms that try to push you towards their own content rather than outside content.

But this is what the EU is saying - you cannot be gatekeeper and competitor at the same time - given the marketshare of Apple.

So that‘s it. This is what it is all about.

 

[AppliedMicro]

But this is what the EU is saying - you cannot be gatekeeper and competitor at the same time

No. They DMA accounts for gatekeepers to compete with third parties on particular products or services. It just requires fair competition without self-preferencing.

 

[Velli]

But this is what the EU is saying - you cannot be gatekeeper and competitor at the same time - given the marketshare of Apple.

So that‘s it. This is what it is all about.

I wasn’t arguing for or against the EU ruling. I was arguing against your flawed comparison to supermarkets. I think we exhausted that discussion.

 

[thewill586]

You can stop right there, as shirt sellers can sell at thousands of physical and online stores.

There's no comparison to be made here between that and selling on iOS and/or Android (only two choices, and really just one if you are an iOS specialized dev)

I think you just re-enforced the OP's assertion. By being a specialized iOS developer, they are relegating themselves to selling only through Target, which makes this just a money issue. Said developer should write their code to run on multiple platforms.

There has been citings about safety on other platforms, but no one has mentioned this: hackers go after the largest platforms that are making money. That means WinTel and iOS.

 

[AndiG]

I wasn’t arguing for or against the EU ruling. I was arguing against your flawed comparison to supermarkets. I think we exhausted that discussion.

Supermarkets? Sorry but that wasn‘t me

 

[makitango]

Calling it “tax” is already ridiculous. No reason to hyperbole it into “fraud”. Accept the margin, of get the hell out of my shop.

Calling it tax is the same level of fairness as Apple calling code-signing notarization, or everything under 49.9% „only few devices are affected“.
The only hyperbole I see here are the zealots screaming socialism just because a regulator executed their duty to protect the market and restrain an excessively greedy control freak.

What’s bizarre is how “Americans” complain about the high margins that is sometimes the result of the free market, when it’s them paying it, and not collecting it.

I want everyone to have free choice, including the store owner.

Even a store owner can‘t do illegal things in his store or harass people after they bought things to check if they follow his instructions.

hackers go after the largest platforms that are making money. That means WinTel and iOS.

The largest platform is SMS, email and social media accounts. It would take a business fool to come to the conclusion that alt marketplace app development would be the fastest and safest way to get into systems.
It would even be easier to do it on the main App Store in lieu of the missing code review.