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Which then begs the question - whoever decided that the next iPhone had to have all these features? Or else what?

This to me is what I find problematic with so much of the tech commentary going around. There is too much focus on specs and not enough on the user experience. There is not enough of “how does one use this product to get more out of technology”.

The way I prefer to analyse Apple is to first start with Apple, and then I analyse the industry that Apple operates in. Instead, what I see a lot of people still doing today is that they just treat Apple as any other company. But Apple does a lot of things differently, and if all you are doing is simply compare Apple to everyone else and then go “Hey, Apple isn’t following what everyone else is doing, so I don’t think whatever Apple is doing is going to work”, I think you are all going down the wrong path.

And honestly speaking, I do feel you are all overhyping certain features just because the iPhone doesn't have them (and particularly because you all know the iPhone doesn't have them). I won't say no when the iPhone does get them, but I won't hold off on an iPhone just because it lacks them either. There's always something newer and shinier around the corner.

It all started last year when many in the tech community thought that having a 5G smartphone in 2019 was a necessity. Well, the iPhone 11 launched without 5g and still did very well. Based on how things have been trending, it’s conceivable to launch a flagship smartphone in 2020 without 5G and still be okay, sales-wise. Especially when we know that a 5g modem is going to significantly increase the cost of the final product, even if your area is not 5g ready yet (and may not be for another couple of years).

Let's put it this way - how many S20 units do you think Samsung has sold so far, given its high price tag, the lack of 5g adoption, and a global pandemic? This feels like a product marketed more towards carriers and less towards consumers.

Meanwhile, the Apple Watch continues to take off, and it actually appears to be getting less competition over time, but you will never hear the people here give it the recognition it deserves. In reality, I think that wearables will end up being the next runway success for Apple, even as the critics continue to be blindsided by smartphones, and what Apple is (and evidently isn't) doing in this field. Samsung choosing to double down on folding phones could also be interpreted as them knowing they have little hope of competing in the wearables field.

So to me, it feels premature to argue that the next iPhone is doomed just because it won't sport a certain feature or two, without seeing the entire package and value proposition. Contrary to how some may make it sound, I am not being locked inside a walled garden against my will, dying yet unable to leave. If I get a new iPhone later this year, it will be because the total value proposition is greater than a competing android smartphone with a periscope camera and 120hz refresh rate and whatever other feature it may have that the iPhone doesn't.

Rather than say that the iPhone is crippled, or that Apple is milking its users just because it lacks a periscope camera or 120hz refresh rate or some other buzzword of the month, why not instead take a step back and analyse just why Apple not only has close to a billion active iPhone users, but also enjoys high loyalty and satisfaction rates amongst them?

As such, I would argue that Apple is not defined by any one product, but rather, by the process that has led to Apple having a cohesive ecosystem of products and services. To put it another way, Apple uses its design-led culture to sell devices capable of fostering a superior experience that users are willing to pay a premium for. It sounds like a load of hot air, until you look at the consumer electronics industry in general and realise that this is a phenomenon that is growing increasingly rare by the moment.

I don't know if I am making sense or not, and I somehow ended up typing all this from what was originally meant to just be a few sentences. I concede that perhaps I may have been a little to quick to dismiss the periscope camera as a gimmick just because it's Samsung doing it, but part of my frustration goes back to my initial premise. Start with Apple, then work your way to the other competitors in the industry if you want to be able to analyse Apple properly. Not the other way round. Else, you will read Apple wrong every single time.

I don’t think anybody here is saying apple’s user experience isn’t great as it is but it’s damn frustrating them holding back features when they shouldn’t be. The samsung user experience is still very good generally with a few draw backs here and there.

120hz should be here for the pros but it likely won’t. No real excuse for holding this back when the iPad has had it since 2017 and other phones from android all have it.

Periscope lens is great tech there’s no harm in wanting this tech instead of waiting years for apple to add it.

It’s not overhyping features though. They are features which are very good ones just because apple doesn’t have them doesn’t mean they are overhyped.

Nobody is saying apple is doomed or the iPhone 12 will be awful. However for the pro models apple will need to battle hard to make it justified to upgrade given it will still have a 60hz display.

Camera improvements would need to be really good for stills to make people think it’s worth it.

Rumours of 3x zoom is coming and 30x digital zoom so least it’s a start.
 
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I don’t think anybody here is saying apple’s user experience isn’t great as it is but it’s damn frustrating them holding back features when they shouldn’t be. The samsung user experience is still very good generally with a few draw backs here and there.

120hz should be here for the pros but it likely won’t. No real excuse for holding this back when the iPad has had it since 2017 and other phones from android all have it.

Periscope lens is great tech there’s no harm in wanting this tech instead of waiting years for apple to add it.

It’s not overhyping features though. They are features which are very good ones just because apple doesn’t have them doesn’t mean they are overhyped.

Nobody is saying apple is doomed or the iPhone 12 will be awful. However for the pro models apple will need to battle hard to make it justified to upgrade given it will still have a 60hz display.

Camera improvements would need to be really good for stills to make people think it’s worth it.

Rumours of 3x zoom is coming and 30x digital zoom so least it’s a start.
Without knowing exactly what goes on in the iPhone planning process, it's hard to say why the next iPhone may not have these features, but I don't think it's Apple deliberating holding a feature back just to save something for the following year. Rather, what is more likely is that Apple is taking their time to implement it in a way they feel is more beneficial to the end user experience.

Apple also sees technology as ingredients towards enabling a certain desired end experience, rather than an end in itself. This goes a long way towards explaining why Apple does many things the way they do.

For instance, we look at the way 120hz displays were implemented on the S20, and the drawbacks and limitations in particular. It's quite taxing on the battery life, is disabled if the device heats up beyond a certain temperature or drops below a certain battery life, and can't be used with max resolution. I don't see Apple being okay shipping a feature with these caveats.

Yes, the iPad Pro has had it since 2017, but even their promotion comes with certain restrictions (is activated only in certain use cases, such as drawing and scrolling), and the iPad has the benefit of a larger battery buffer so the average user won't really feel the impact of the increase power usage. Also, unlike the Samsung Note, iPhones don't ship with styluses nor are you expected to use them extensively with the iPhone, so that's one less benefit / argument for including said feature in the iPhone.

I imagine these factors would be of greater concern on a smartphone which has larger battery constraints. And android arguably needs this feature more because iOS tends to come with smoother scrolling animations anyways.

What I suspect Apple is still working on (assuming they are even planning on bringing faster refresh rates to the iPhone) is having the hardware and software teams work together to offer the same benefit while reducing power consumption to a minimum. Like promotion, it's going to come on only for certain use cases which Apple believes benefit more from a faster refresh rate. The devil is in the details, and that's what people like us pay Apple to do - make the tough decisions for us so we don't have to.

It's going to take time (integrating hardware and software together always entails more work than just cramming more hardware in), Apple will release it if and when they feel it is ready and up to their standards, and I will still be around to make use of it if and when it does get released.

In the meantime, I continue to enjoy the many perks of the Apple ecosystem that other android phones don't enjoy, such as long software support, having the best smartwatch and wearables in the market (Apple Watch and AirPods), tight integration with my iPad Pro, having the best apps in the market (and being able to buy them from a better maintained and curated App Store), just to name a few.
 
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Have you actually seen good computational photography in action? There is no software or hardware limitations. It's simply a matter of Apple delaying the introduction of leading edge camera features.

I have both seen good computational photography and experienced it on my iPhone 11. It is remarkable how far software and hardware have come. To say that there are “no software or hardware limitations” is the equivalent of saying “640K is more memory than anyone will ever need on a computer.” The hardware and software we have available today will be eclipsed constantly.

Even the best medium and large-format cameras still have technical limitations. The software engineers at Apple, Google, and a few other groups are doing an amazing job of overcoming physics...but that is the crux of it...the small form factor of everything Apple makes only allows for very small lenses and sensors. The people you (used to) see on the sidelines at games don’t use lenses the size of road cones because they like it...the more light you gather, the more data (and thus detail) you can feed to the (increasingly advanced) software.

Many of the best photos I have were indeed taken on my iPhones...but the photos I get with my Olympus, Panasonic, Sony, and Nikon interchangeable lens cameras are of reliably higher quality. This doesn’t even get into the advantages of greater lens variety.
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nothing wrong with the periscope lens on the Huawei phones. Wouldn’t buy a Huawei phone but I can admit they have great cameras.
It depends on what your expectations are. Huawei has certainly done a much better job than Samsung. The digital zoom on the S20 Ultra is an imperfect example of the challenges that need to be overcome for a good implementation of periscope lenses...but still similar enough.

Periscope lenses do indeed look to be a great innovation. My point is just that Apple (and others) will need to create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware to make it work well. Far from saying it won’t be shockingly good...I am excited to see how good it can get. I just don’t expect it to be as good as a dedicated camera yet.
 
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Yeah what they and Samsung do with periscope lens are great. People dismissing it just because apple don’t have it is what gives apple fans a bad name
If being excited about a technology but pointing out technical realities is bad to you, then I’m guilty.
 
I’m glad that I am sticking with my iPhone X until 2023. By then I should see a substantial upgrade.
I HAD to buy another phone to replace my swollen X. I find the 11 Pro is a pretty nice upgrade. By 2023, you will have a huge upgrade.
 
It depends on what your expectations are. Huawei has certainly done a much better job than Samsung. The digital zoom on the S20 Ultra is an imperfect example of the challenges that need to be overcome for a good implementation of periscope lenses...but still similar enough.

I disagree, there's nothing technically wrong with Samsung's implementation of the Periscope camera.
Promoting 100X Zoom wasn't the best idea but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with their periscope camera.

Periscope lenses do indeed look to be a great innovation. My point is just that Apple (and others) will need to create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware to make it work well. Far from saying it won’t be shockingly good...I am excited to see how good it can get. I just don’t expect it to be as good as a dedicated camera yet.
By the time Apple would "create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware"(which is just your supposition) Samsung Huawei and other OEMs will be at their Gen 3 or 4 periscope cameras with way more experience than Apple from a hardware or software point of view. So if the reason for apple's delayed introduction of this hardware is because they supposedly want to "create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware", they are doing it wrong.
 
I disagree, there's nothing technically wrong with Samsung's implementation of the Periscope camera.
Promoting 100X Zoom wasn't the best idea but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with their periscope camera.


By the time Apple would "create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware"(which is just your supposition) Samsung Huawei and other OEMs will be at their Gen 3 or 4 periscope cameras with way more experience than Apple from a hardware or software point of view. So if the reason for apple's delayed introduction of this hardware is because they supposedly want to "create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware", they are doing it wrong.
Let’s face it anything past 30x loses picture quality. Samsung know this and why they removed 100x zoom. Which is why they are working on improving 30-50x zoom.
 
Let’s face it anything past 30x loses picture quality. Samsung know this and why they removed 100x zoom. Which is why they are working on improving 30-50x zoom.
I didn't say it doesn't but you can't say it's defective because of it's quality at 60-100X and completely ignore the results at lower zoom levels.

The purpose of the Periscope cameras is to go above the 10X digital limit for X2 Telephoto cameras(like the ones in the iphones) and all Periscope cameras successfully do that.
 
I disagree, there's nothing technically wrong with Samsung's implementation of the Periscope camera.
Promoting 100X Zoom wasn't the best idea but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with their periscope camera.


By the time Apple would "create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware"(which is just your supposition) Samsung Huawei and other OEMs will be at their Gen 3 or 4 periscope cameras with way more experience than Apple from a hardware or software point of view. So if the reason for apple's delayed introduction of this hardware is because they supposedly want to "create some really innovative software and machine learning hardware", they are doing it wrong.
Correct. Like TouchID. When Apple released touch id with the 5s, they showed the world how it should be done.
 
Correct. Like TouchID. When Apple released touch id with the 5s, they showed the world how it should be done.
More like Apple bought AuthenTec, the best supplier in terms of tech at that time.
There's virtually no chance of this happening with the Periscope camera as most current such cameras are in-house designs.
 
More like Apple bought AuthenTec, the best supplier in terms of tech at that time.
There's virtually no chance of this happening with the Periscope camera as most current such cameras are in-house designs.
Correct they bought a company and applied their own spin and showed the world how it should be done. As Apple does have much in-house design experience, we don’t know what’s at the other end yet.
 
Correct they bought a company and applied their own spin and showed the world how it should be done. As Apple does have much in-house design experience, we don’t know what’s at the other end yet.
They bought AuthenTec after the half of 2012 and next year they launched the 5S so I don't think the put a lot of their own spin on it as they didn't have the time for that. They used the fingerprint sensor as it was, they just did work to integrate it with their hardware and software.

Anyway in this case "Apple showing others how it's done" means they bought a company and integrated it's tech in their hardware. Wow, that's such a remarkable accomplishment. Great example, what can I say.

On cameras Apple has less inhouse experience than a lot of Android OEMs.
 
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They bought AuthenTec after the half of 2012 and next year they launched the 5S so I don't think the put a lot of their own spin on it as they didn't have the time for that. They used the fingerprint sensor as it was, they just did work to integrate it with their hardware and software.

Anyway in this case "Apple showing others how it's done" means they bought a company and integrated it's tech in their hardware. Wow, that's such a remarkable accomplishment. Great example, what can I say.

On cameras Apple has less inhouse experience than a lot of Android OEMs.
Exactly. Apple showed the world the gold standard of fingerprint readers with the release of touch id on the 5s. They other thing they showed the world was their in-house design prowess as the beat out the competition for a 64bit mobile operating system.

Apple has the design capability to do what they want, although sometimes it's better to buy, modify, install than to build. So my money is on Apple for whatever they want to do. (Of course, ymmv, on this opinion, but the proof as they say will be in the pudding)
 
Exactly. Apple showed the world the gold standard of fingerprint readers with the release of touch id on the 5s. They other thing they showed the world was their in-house design prowess as the beat out the competition for a 64bit mobile operating system.

Apple has the design capability to do what they want, although sometimes it's better to buy, modify, install than to build. So my money is on Apple for whatever they want to do. (Of course, ymmv, on this opinion, but the proof as they say will be in the pudding)
Anybody can buy a company, that's what Apple technically showed the world.
Also what does chip design have to do with designing Periscope cameras? We are talking about different things here, it's like saying AMD would also be great at designing camera hardware because they design great CPUs.
And last, I recommend you read the title of the article again, it says "Apple is lining up suppliers for 2022". Nothing about the periscope camera being inhouse design so your points are moot from the start.

It's amusing because you most likely didn't know that Apple got the fingerprint in the 5s by buying a company, you thought they developed the tech by themselves.

Apple has the design capability to do what they want

Well they obviously weren't able to finalize Airpower.
 
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Anybody can buy a company, that's what Apple technically showed the world.
Also what does chip design have to do with designing Periscope cameras? We are talking about different things here.
And last, I recommend you read the title of the article again, it says "Apple is lining up suppliers for 2022". Nothing about the periscope camera being inhouse design so your points are moot from the start.
How do you know Apple didn't design a custom part? Apple lines up suppliers for it's oled panels as well. Do you not believe Apple designed the oled panels or just took whatever was available in the ol' parts bin?
It's amusing because you most likely didn't know that Apple got the fingerprint in the 5s by buying a company, you thought they developed the tech by themselves.
What's amusing is that it seems some believe that a tech purchase somehow diminished the ripple effect across the industry of having a gold standard for biometric authentication.
Well they obviously weren't able to finalize Airpower.
Before you succeed you have to fail, so you understand failure. Nobody else has been able to develop an airpower equivalent.
 
How do you know Apple didn't design a custom part? Apple lines up suppliers for it's oled panels as well. Do you not believe Apple designed the oled panels or just took whatever was available in the ol' parts bin?

What does "Apple designed the oled panels" mean from a practical stand point. I bet you don't know.
Anyway Apple bought AuthenTec in July 2012(which were regarded as having the best fingerprint tech on the market at that time) and in September 2013 they launched the 5S.
The chances that they designed a custom hardware part in a few months are practically nonexistent. And if that would have been the case it would have made no sense to spend money on AuthenTec in the first place.

What's amusing is that it seems some believe that a tech purchase somehow diminished the ripple effect across the industry of having a gold standard for biometric authentication.

Well your point was to paint it as an exclusive Apple achievement which is not true. "They set the gold standard", "they can design anything" so practically they can easily design a better Periscope camera than others.
If Samsung would have bought AuthenTec then Samsung would have had the best fingerprint sensor on the market for a year.

Before you succeed you have to fail, so you understand failure. Nobody else has been able to develop an airpower equivalent.

LoL but Apple can do what they want, they can design anything. That was your point.
 
What does "Apple designed the oled panels" mean from a practical stand point. I bet you don't know.
I'll bet it's a rare person on this forum who would really understand, exactly what that meant and what Apple turned over to Samsung. But I'm sure it's more than "toilet paper" specs.
Anyway Apple bought AuthenTec in July 2012(which were regarded as having the best fingerprint tech on the market at that time) and in September 2013 they launched the 5S.
The chances that they designed a custom hardware part in a few months are practically nonexistent. And if that would have been the case it would have made no sense to spend money on AuthenTec in the first place.
We can surely speculate on all of this.
Well your point was to paint it as an exclusive Apple achievement which is not true. "They set the gold standard", "they can design anything" so practically they can easily design a better Periscope camera than others.
If Samsung would have bought AuthenTec then Samsung would have had the best fingerprint sensor on the market for a year.
No, my point was that it became the gold standard for authentication with ease of use and functionality and became the basis for apple pay, financial transactions through apps, etc. And possibly there may be some functions in the "periscope lens", which may be apple-worthy as well.
LoL but Apple can do what they want, they can design anything. That was your point.
No, that's your hyperbolic interpretation. Apple can't design anything, eg a time machine. But they have a good track record since 2011, regarding products for their ecosystem.
 
I'll bet it's a rare person on this forum who would really understand, exactly what that meant and what Apple turned over to Samsung. But I'm sure it's more than "toilet paper" specs.

OK, like I've said, you don't know.

We can surely speculate on all of this.

You are the one that's speculating with absolutely nothing to back up your claims, I just used facts and common sense.

No, my point was that it became the gold standard for authentication with ease of use and functionality and became the basis for apple pay, financial transactions through apps, etc. And possibly there may be some functions in the "periscope lens", which may be apple-worthy as well.

LoL, "apple-worthy'.

No, that's your hyperbolic interpretation. Apple can't design anything, eg a time machine. But they have a good track record since 2011, regarding products for their ecosystem.

I didn't imply they could design a time machine, that would be ridiculous, I was just thinking about anything related to smartphones. Things like AirPower.
Other companies also have a very good track record, even better than Apple actually.

Anyway like I've said:
1. "Apple showing others how it's done" means they bought a company and integrated it's tech in their hardware.
2. When it comes to cameras Apple has less inhouse experience than a lot of Android OEMs
 
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It will come when it will come, and they don’t have to pretend to be sympathetic that users are supposedly missing out on the next big thing.

I agree.
It seems the biggest whiners about features that the iPhone doesn't have yet is often the people who don't have iPhones...

It's like that person you know who went to a "rival" college a decade ago, who's still comparing the colleges for this or that reason, and you finally have to say, "You do understand that I never bothered to apply there? Not even as my fallback..."

It's not a comparison, I have no interest in going there. I'm perfectly happy where I am...
 
OK, like I've said, you don't know.



You are the one that's speculating with absolutely nothing to back up your claims, I just used facts and common sense.



LoL, "apple-worthy'.



I didn't imply they could design a time machine, that would be ridiculous, I was just thinking about anything related to smartphones. Things like AirPower.
Other companies also have a very good track record, even better than Apple actually.

Anyway like I've said:
1. "Apple showing others how it's done" means they bought a company and integrated it's tech in their hardware.
2. When it comes to cameras Apple has less inhouse experience than a lot of Android OEMs
It's patently apparent, you don't know either. There were no facts or common sense applied in this "discussion", not even opinion, just some speculation.

Apple is a smart company, they know when to buy and change and when to design from scratch. Apple has had plenty of failures and it's a company that learns from itself. That Airpower is kept being repeated as a failure is a positive thing for Apple.

As far as camera expertise, sure your opinion. Got it. (And for the record a lot of what is in android phones are prior art that is reused with many android oems buying chips from Qualcomm...so not a lot of inventiveness there)
 
Any chance that this could spell the end of the camera bump and we can finally lay our phones flat again without wobbling when you type?
I suspect that it will go the other way at some point. the manufacturers are upping the camera game so much that the combination of lens and imager is getting bigger. I think there will be 2, no make that 3 choices....1. leave the bump, 2. make the phone thicker too loose the bump or 3. stop upgrading the camera. Though I do suspect that there are other choices too.

I thought I saw a few Samsung phones with the bump out for the cameras too. AIW?
 
Agreed, zoom would be very nice.
I suppose that it is really difficult to make a good optical zoom in such a small camera (distortion issues or whatsoever...), and that Apple wants to make it right rather than make it fast (Hello SpyHuawei).
I know a few people that have the high end Huawei phones and they are nice...lots of RAM, fast processor and camera optics from Leica. I wonder who might be spying more Huawei (China) or Facebook, Google, CIA....
 
I know a few people that have the high end Huawei phones and they are nice...lots of RAM, fast processor and camera optics from Leica. I wonder who might be spying more Huawei (China) or Facebook, Google, CIA....
True, but that doesn't make Spywei right.
 
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True, but that doesn't make Spywei right.
I don't buy for 1 second that they spying more that we do, or than Russia.....we jut don't hear about it. That's why Snowden was such a big deal....he was sharing all of the the secrets of our spying and wiretapping, etc
 
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