Apple Losing Out to Microsoft and Google in U.S. Classrooms

[9081094]

Here's an article that change came discussing why people are leaving Apple and for Windows. It's very compelling.

http://char.gd/microsoft/why-i-left-mac-for-windows/

Very good read! I'd could write it myself if my english wasn't that bad. Also the comments gives a good read.
Just saw a writing on Appleinsider where they try to explain there isn't future in the mac anymore because of declining sales. When looking at the graph I see even more decline in iPad sales but still talking it's the future.

My point is: you can make or break the future with a product! Hardware and software needs investments to evolve. If you don't do neither it's lame to tell everyone the future is different. Microsoft understood but the hardware wasn't ready. Apple just stood (as good as) still for at last 4 years.

 

[BuffaloTF]

Take another look. My Grandson does programming (coding), games, office applications, homework, school specific applications and a bunch more using a Chromebook. They are learning far more real world experiences with Chromebooks then could be accomplished with IOS. A bonus, huge costs savings on top of the learning experience. True, windows has some advantages, the reason some schools are going this way. Either are far superior in the classroom then IOS with Chrome the leader.

I'm not talking about iOS or iPads... I'm talking about Microsoft. Specifically - Office... in response to "software to learn like programing, designing like photoshop, and office work like Microsoft Office" ... all of which require, at minimum, Windows (you can also use a Mac). The real-world is still dominated by it. Office isn't just better than GDocs, they're so far apart they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence... a better comparison for GDocs is Notepad.

Outside of Office... in the corporate world, ERP systems are dominated by thick clients, and not cloud clients -- SAP and Oracle, namely... and this includes them eating the lunch of WorkDay, which is made by the guys that created Oracle, so he kinda knows what it needs to do. CRM is the closest thing today where cloud work makes sense, and that's more of a bridge, with something like SalesForce dominating that market. Even TMS companies are unable to provide parity for their own products when offering thick and thin clients.

My son has a Chromebook from school, it's a fine device for what it is. He's also in Kindergarten. I can't see much use for it beyond the elementary world -- presentation matters. I think this is why Office 365 took back the cloud-based productivity suite crown from Google virtually overnight upon its release. It costs more, but that is negligible when you take into account what your capabilities become.

 

[npmacuser5]

I'm not talking about iOS or iPads... I'm talking about Microsoft. Specifically - Office... in response to "software to learn like programing, designing like photoshop, and office work like Microsoft Office" ... all of which require, at minimum, Windows (you can also use a Mac). The real-world is still dominated by it. Office isn't just better than GDocs, they're so far apart they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence... a better comparison for GDocs is Notepad.

Outside of Office... in the corporate world, ERP systems are dominated by thick clients, and not cloud clients -- SAP and Oracle, namely... and this includes them eating the lunch of WorkDay, which is made by the guys that created Oracle, so he kinda knows what it needs to do. CRM is the closest thing today where cloud work makes sense, and that's more of a bridge, with something like SalesForce dominating that market. Even TMS companies are unable to provide parity for their own products when offering thick and thin clients.

My son has a Chromebook from school, it's a fine device for what it is. He's also in Kindergarten. I can't see much use for it beyond the elementary world -- presentation matters. I think this is why Office 365 took back the cloud-based productivity suite crown from Google virtually overnight upon its release. It costs more, but that is negligible when you take into account what your capabilities become.

I think we are essentially on the same page with one basic difference. Education needs not to be about a specific product like Office. I used various office type applications. Moving from one to the next not a significant challenge as I fully understood the basic process. Excel, Numbers, Sheets, easy to move between once educated on formulas, cells and columns, as an example. Educating our students on say Google Docs, they should have very few challlenges moving to Microsoft Office. Same applies to cloud services and other office related applications. One might argue that exposure to many different environments provides an enhanced experience for our students.

 

[dysamoria]

You're pretty much right.

The only saving grace is you can use Office.com on them, and still get a more functional set of programs than what Google Docs offers.

It's troubling that these are the things that are starting to dominate schools. You want a kid to function in the real world someday... and the real world is dominated by Windows, Office, and a host of actual programs. Not websites. There's cloud solutions in each space, but they don't hold a candle to the full fledged programs. SAP and Oracle don't need to worry much about WorkDay and Wall Street Systems (and the guys that made Oracle make Workday)... they simply aren't as capable. We should want to provide our children with a knowledge base that provides the broadest foundation for the future... instead we're giving them an incredibly narrow one, because people are cheap.

The USA culture does not respect education, children, or knowledge. It's no wonder at all that education gets next to zero financial support and attention.
[doublepost=1488837205][/doublepost]

I work in education and we actually considered going 1-1 with iPads for the students. But 2 years ago we bought iPads for all the teachers in order to test a "soft deployment" of iPads in an "enterprise" setting. I can tell you the user experience isn't the issue. From a user perspective, iPads are awesome to use. They are stable, they have great battery life and the application ecosystem is second to none. The problems arise in trying to manage all these iPads. They are an absolute IT nightmare. We use JAMF to manage all our macs and it is the best solution available but it's terrible. I'm huge mac fan and will continue to use their products at home. But when my boss comes to me to ask me my opinion on acquiring more macs for our school, my recommendation will be a resounding NO!

This is another excellent example and huge piece of evidence showing that Apple is clueless about the needs of professionals.
[doublepost=1488839851][/doublepost]

Exactly. How much money is enough, Tim?
Cook and current execs can retire many times over.
Apple has enough cash reserves to weather multiple future recessions.

What the Apple brand cannot weather is losing customer loyalty. Historically it's one of the major reasons behind Apple's success.

This is what public ownership does when the CEO lets stock price and profit margins be the sole motivator of business plans. Pathological capitalism. Go check out that Steve Jobs interview segment where he describes Xerox leadership back in the day. It's today's Apple.

 

[rwitt]

The iOS on iPad is so crippled, I'd never recommend one for a student

As someone who manages 5600 iPads for a school district you couldn't be any more wrong. The iPad is an amazing device for education. The ability to actually write on the screen makes it better than 90% of the Chromebook crap out there. There are so many reasons they are better devices.

Are they priced too high of course and are they perfect no, but there is no such thing as a perfect device that schools can actually afford.
[doublepost=1488906249][/doublepost]mithion said: ↑
I work in education and we actually considered going 1-1 with iPads for the students. But 2 years ago we bought iPads for all the teachers in order to test a "soft deployment" of iPads in an "enterprise" setting. I can tell you the user experience isn't the issue. From a user perspective, iPads are awesome to use. They are stable, they have great battery life and the application ecosystem is second to none. The problems arise in trying to manage all these iPads. They are an absolute IT nightmare. We use JAMF to manage all our macs and it is the best solution available but it's terrible. I'm huge mac fan and will continue to use their products at home. But when my boss comes to me to ask me my opinion on acquiring more macs for our school, my recommendation will be a resounding NO!



If you think iPads are a nightmare to manage then you are doing it wrong. 2 people manage 5600 devices spread across 3 1:1's and 5 additional elementary buildings is a sign it can be done. Is it as easy as the Chrome OS panel no, but it is also not as robust of an OS as iOS is.

That being said its cheaper. In an age where we don't value the technology component in education as part of the process then we will have to continue going cheap. I agree that Apple is dropping the ball. They need a sub $600 notebook for edu and a full size iPad that doesn't cost $450.

 

[KUguardgrl13]

Were the wishes / needs of the teachers taken into account or was this aspect handed to you fait accompli?

That I couldn't tell you. This is my first year in the district as a para in early childhood. I just thought it was interesting that Macrumors published this article when my district just announced they were purchasing MacBooks for the high school students.

I'm not sure why they originally decided to move away from desktop PCs to 1:1 Apple devices. Perhaps Apple was running a good deal at the time. I think they've decided to extend the devices to students because of the ecosystem that was formed with teacher devices and the theoretical benefits of offline use as compared to Chromebooks. I have no idea what, if any, Windows options were considered. They seem to be finding ways to eradicate all of the Windows machines in the district except for a few desktops in offices and libraries.

 

[dk001]

That I couldn't tell you. This is my first year in the district as a para in early childhood. I just thought it was interesting that Macrumors published this article when my district just announced they were purchasing MacBooks for the high school students.

I'm not sure why they originally decided to move away from desktop PCs to 1:1 Apple devices. Perhaps Apple was running a good deal at the time. I think they've decided to extend the devices to students because of the ecosystem that was formed with teacher devices and the theoretical benefits of offline use as compared to Chromebooks. I have no idea what, if any, Windows options were considered. They seem to be finding ways to eradicate all of the Windows machines in the district except for a few desktops in offices and libraries.

Thanks for the reply. That was one of the big complaints here in the LAUSD, no teacher input.

 

[lowendlinux]

no but they are spending far more on maintenance, repair, and antivirus than they would with apple hardware. My classroom has a set of lenovo thinkpads from 4 years ago that are horrendous to the point where if one needs any kind of repair, they don't even bother.

But were talking about Chromebooks not Windows laptops, Chomebooks don't need any of the things you mentioned.

I'm not talking about iOS or iPads... I'm talking about Microsoft. Specifically - Office... in response to "software to learn like programing, designing like photoshop, and office work like Microsoft Office" ... all of which require, at minimum, Windows (you can also use a Mac). The real-world is still dominated by it. Office isn't just better than GDocs, they're so far apart they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence... a better comparison for GDocs is Notepad.

Outside of Office... in the corporate world, ERP systems are dominated by thick clients, and not cloud clients -- SAP and Oracle, namely... and this includes them eating the lunch of WorkDay, which is made by the guys that created Oracle, so he kinda knows what it needs to do. CRM is the closest thing today where cloud work makes sense, and that's more of a bridge, with something like SalesForce dominating that market. Even TMS companies are unable to provide parity for their own products when offering thick and thin clients.

My son has a Chromebook from school, it's a fine device for what it is. He's also in Kindergarten. I can't see much use for it beyond the elementary world -- presentation matters. I think this is why Office 365 took back the cloud-based productivity suite crown from Google virtually overnight upon its release. It costs more, but that is negligible when you take into account what your capabilities become.

There is no Office but there is Ps for .edu Chromebooks. My kid is in Gymnasium and I don't think I've seen a word document submitted or received yet they do everything with Google docs. These kids will carry all that forward, they will become the purchasers and decision makers and the old school will fall away. It's kinda scary how prevalent google is in our lives and it's set to be more prevalent.

 

[BuffaloTF]

There is no Office but there is Ps for .edu Chromebooks. My kid is in Gymnasium and I don't think I've seen a word document submitted or received yet they do everything with Google docs. These kids will carry all that forward, they will become the purchasers and decision makers and the old school will fall away. It's kinda scary how prevalent google is in our lives and it's set to be more prevalent.

You can use Office.com on them, and it's far better than GDocs. This is just highlighting the problem with them, it isn't what you carry forward, it's a question of what you need to know. You're learning something that is far less capable, then you're dumbfounded on how to use an actual Office program when you get into a corporate environment that demands it - advanced usage required. You aren't going to show up and say "no, I can't create a pivot table, but I can double-space blocks of text to make it easier to read!"... Learning the basics is fine and dandy... if you're in elementary school. Your upper years should be focused on higher-learning and workforce preparation. GDocs isn't going to replace Office, and Office is way more than Word - but the abilities and functions you learn in Word alone carry through to other Office programs.

The corporate world tried to replace Office with GDocs over the past few years... as soon as Microsoft offered a thin client subscription with Office.com for corporates, they all hopped right back on board and it's more expensive per user. It isn't going to replace any old school, it simply isn't capable of providing professional-level quality. This is the same reason why the totally free OpenOffice didn't take off and eventually threw in the towel. Office is the gold standard for a reason... and there isn't a silver medalist. The podium is empty.

 

[dk001]

You can use Office.com on them, and it's far better than GDocs. This is just highlighting the problem with them, it isn't what you carry forward, it's a question of what you need to know. You're learning something that is far less capable, then you're dumbfounded on how to use an actual Office program when you get into a corporate environment that demands it - advanced usage required. You aren't going to show up and say "no, I can't create a pivot table, but I can double-space blocks of text to make it easier to read!"... Learning the basics is fine and dandy... if you're in elementary school. Your upper years should be focused on higher-learning and workforce preparation. GDocs isn't going to replace Office, and Office is way more than Word - but the abilities and functions you learn in Word alone carry through to other Office programs.

The corporate world tried to replace Office with GDocs over the past few years... as soon as Microsoft offered a thin client subscription with Office.com for corporates, they all hopped right back on board and it's more expensive per user. It isn't going to replace any old school, it simply isn't capable of providing professional-level quality. This is the same reason why the totally free OpenOffice didn't take off and eventually threw in the towel. Office is the gold standard for a reason... and there isn't a silver medalist. The podium is empty.

You can use Office 365 on a Chromebook. We have a few places at work were these are used. The use is growing.
It is a business account.

 

[lowendlinux]

You can use Office.com on them, and it's far better than GDocs. This is just highlighting the problem with them, it isn't what you carry forward, it's a question of what you need to know. You're learning something that is far less capable, then you're dumbfounded on how to use an actual Office program when you get into a corporate environment that demands it - advanced usage required. You aren't going to show up and say "no, I can't create a pivot table, but I can double-space blocks of text to make it easier to read!"... Learning the basics is fine and dandy... if you're in elementary school. Your upper years should be focused on higher-learning and workforce preparation. GDocs isn't going to replace Office, and Office is way more than Word - but the abilities and functions you learn in Word alone carry through to other Office programs.

The corporate world tried to replace Office with GDocs over the past few years... as soon as Microsoft offered a thin client subscription with Office.com for corporates, they all hopped right back on board and it's more expensive per user. It isn't going to replace any old school, it simply isn't capable of providing professional-level quality. This is the same reason why the totally free OpenOffice didn't take off and eventually threw in the towel. Office is the gold standard for a reason... and there isn't a silver medalist. The podium is empty.

Again these kids will be the ones making that decision we're going to retire and they will take over and use the tools they want and are familiar with. Nothing ever stays the same

https://support.google.com/docs/answer/1272900?co=GENIE.Platform=Desktop&hl=en

Here's how to create a pivot table on sheets.

https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Pivot_Table

And here's how in libre office and you can now set up collaborative office on you own server with libre office.

www.google.de/amp/www.digitaltrends.com/computing/libreoffice-version-53-release/amp/

People will always get things done the fastest and easiest way for them for me and you that is office but that isn't the way for the young ones.

 

[dwaltwhit]

But were talking about Chromebooks not Windows laptops, Chomebooks don't need any of the things you mentioned.

Chromebooks may be less costly on some of these items, sure. But being used regularly by students, they WILL require repair of wear and tear. The macbook's unibody design generally means it is more durable whereas the chromebook is made out of plastic. I am also uncertain as to the quality of the components as compared to the macbook. What is the battery's life? As multiple companies sell chromebooks, I am sure some are better than others, but knowing how school systems work, especially those with less money, I would count on purchasing from the lowest bidder.

 

[Since1987]

http://char.gd/microsoft/why-i-left-mac-for-windows/

I've been with mac 30 years. Never owned a PC. But you can get cheap stuff now that is better than Apple's cheap stuff. And you can get an HP workstation that DESTROYS the current MacPro for $1500. I've put up with the current post Jobs stupidocracy because much of my work requires a Linux/Unix shell. I didn't realize that Linux support in Windows was for real. Cupertino better pull a rabbit out of it's hat real soon or i'm gone. ( but i don't think they can do it, or even WANT to do it )

Here's the best thing in that article, a concept the apologists around here can't grasp. Nor can Cook and Ive.

“Those complaining about Apple’s current Mac lineup are not haters, they’re lovers. They’ve spent 10+ years and 5+ figures on Macs.”

... and are pained by watching it die a slow painful unnecessary death. ( my own addition to that statement )

 

[576316]

The iOS on iPad is so crippled, I'd never recommend one for a student

I use OneNote on my iPad mini 4 to take lecture notes, I also have this neat bluetooth keyboard from Logitech that I use. But iOS is massively flawed in terms of actual productivity. I've always said iPad should be running an adapted version of iOS. You can't have a productivity device that's running a OS designed for mobile apps. There's inevitably some stuff you need to do with requires use of desktop style applications and/or an actual file system.

Apple need to stop lying to themselves about the iPad being a personal computer replacement, because it just isn't.

 

[lowendlinux]

Chromebooks may be less costly on some of these items, sure. But being used regularly by students, they WILL require repair of wear and tear. The macbook's unibody design generally means it is more durable whereas the chromebook is made out of plastic. I am also uncertain as to the quality of the components as compared to the macbook. What is the battery's life? As multiple companies sell chromebooks, I am sure some are better than others, but knowing how school systems work, especially those with less money, I would count on purchasing from the lowest bidder.

Not all Chomebooks are plastic and like Mac's there is nothing to repair it's all soldiered on.

 

[AppLearnStay]

You're pretty much right.

The only saving grace is you can use Office.com on them, and still get a more functional set of programs than what Google Docs offers.

It's troubling that these are the things that are starting to dominate schools. You want a kid to function in the real world someday... and the real world is dominated by Windows, Office, and a host of actual programs. Not websites. There's cloud solutions in each space, but they don't hold a candle to the full fledged programs. SAP and Oracle don't need to worry much about WorkDay and Wall Street Systems (and the guys that made Oracle make Workday)... they simply aren't as capable. We should want to provide our children with a knowledge base that provides the broadest foundation for the future... instead we're giving them an incredibly narrow one, because people are cheap.

i was wondering how people function in the world now who went to school at a period when there were no computer in schools?? including me we are just doing fine now and i am a developer.. same with kids now. they will just do fine. you are trying to make excuses for an issue that dont exist

 

[Crazylovesyou]

Chromebooks are fine for 'by rote' education. For imaginative, creative and stimulating learning, the iPad remains light years ahead.

 

[AppLearnStay]

I swapped out my IPad for a Chromebook a few years back. Big advantages I saw were the expandable memory on the Chromebook via the SD card slot, multiple USB ports and the keyboard. It was a very nice machine given the price point was so low. Not sure, but I believe I bought it for under $300. It didn't do everything I wanted, but it did enough.

I am trying to do the same now but i am waiting for the right chromebook. I have ipad air and i want a detachable chromebook(which is coming as per leaks). with android apps i dont think i will miss my ipad
[doublepost=1489101212][/doublepost]

Chromebooks are fine for 'by rote' education. For imaginative, creative and stimulating learning, the iPad remains light years ahead.

chromebook can do that too its just that you are failing to see that just like apple. and thats exactly why google is gaining on chromebook with 58% market share. many people have started to see that in chromebook. dont forget now chromebook also has android apps

 

[BuffaloTF]

i was wondering how people function in the world now who went to school at a period when there were no computer in schools?? including me we are just doing fine now and i am a developer.. same with kids now. they will just do fine. you are trying to make excuses for an issue that dont exist

Yes, a developer. And I'm Jamie Dimon.

Younger people being better with technology than older people is not an excuse. It's a reality. Growing up with things as a child builds a confidence, familiarity and knowledge base that simply cannot be taught. Teaching simply refines it. In other words, providing someone with a tool now will make their mastery happen sooner, which will free them to discover new applications of that tool that we never so much as dreamed of.

 

[dwaltwhit]

I use OneNote on my iPad mini 4 to take lecture notes, I also have this neat bluetooth keyboard from Logitech that I use. But iOS is massively flawed in terms of actual productivity. I've always said iPad should be running an adapted version of iOS. You can't have a productivity device that's running a OS designed for mobile apps. There's inevitably some stuff you need to do with requires use of desktop style applications and/or an actual file system.

Apple need to stop lying to themselves about the iPad being a personal computer replacement, because it just isn't.

I agree that some applications (not apps per se but applying of productivity) are not well suited for iOS. I do think that Apple is realizing the market is showing that there is a demo that wants the surface type experience and although the iPad pro hardware is already matching that form factor, the productivity software is not far behind.
[doublepost=1489153749][/doublepost]

Not all Chomebooks are plastic and like Mac's there is nothing to repair it's all soldiered on.

The chromebooks schools will buy en masse will almost definitely be plastic

 

[lowendlinux]

I agree that some applications (not apps per se but applying of productivity) are not well suited for iOS. I do think that Apple is realizing the market is showing that there is a demo that wants the surface type experience and although the iPad pro hardware is already matching that form factor, the productivity software is not far behind.
[doublepost=1489153749][/doublepost]
The chromebooks schools will buy en masse will almost definitely be plastic

Just like the white plastic MacBooks they bought before so it's a wash. Plastic would actually be better since it'll take smaller bumps better.

http://www.androidauthority.com/acer-chromebook-14-682729/

Here's a metal sub $300 retail Chromebook probably $180 in bulk.

 

[dwaltwhit]

Just like the white plastic MacBooks they bought before so it's a wash. Plastic would actually be better since it'll take smaller bumps better.

http://www.androidauthority.com/acer-chromebook-14-682729/

Here's a metal sub $300 retail Chromebook probably $180 in bulk.

I hope that's the one we end up with. We are on lenovo thinkpads from 2011 and they are in rufffff shape.

 

[AppLearnStay]

Yes, a developer. And I'm Jamie Dimon.

Younger people being better with technology than older people is not an excuse. It's a reality. Growing up with things as a child builds a confidence, familiarity and knowledge base that simply cannot be taught. Teaching simply refines it. In other words, providing someone with a tool now will make their mastery happen sooner, which will free them to discover new applications of that tool that we never so much as dreamed of.

1. I never made an excuse by saying Younger people being better with technology than older people, it was in fact the opposite
2. here is ur quoes "You want a kid to function in the real world someday... and the real world is dominated by Windows, Office, and a host of actual programs."

3. here is my point. I am an old guy and when i was at school i had no computer at school, no access to technology(no windows or programs or office) yet i am now a programmer and a tech geek. I turned out ok with no access when i was a kid.

so kids now will be just fine with using a chromebook at schools because 1. they are smarter and knows technolgy better and they can handle future just fine. ur statement(point 2 listed above) was just an excuse to a problem that dont exist

 

[Michael Goff]

I think he meant to say, "We are not willing to reduce our profit margin, so all those poor schools need to put on their big boy pant's and pony up the cash". If the richest company in the world truly wanted to help students learn and help teachers teach, it's called charity. Supply all schools with iPads for the price of chrome books or even for free. What a joke.

Apple isn't a charity, they're a hardware company.

 

[ILUVAPPLE69]

Academia and the real world are two different entities. Your main goal as a student is to memorize material and ace the test. Your main goal in the real world is to be as productive as possible for your company. Chromebooks are great learning tools to gather information while Macs are great productivity machines.