Today it costs $12K. Battery technology gets cheaper with more density every year.
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Apple May Have Considered Purchasing Tesla, Researching Audio to Predict Heart Attacks
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Today it costs $12K. Battery technology gets cheaper with more density every year.
I believe I read some where that you eventually have to return to the swap station to get your original battery back.
Yes, and that's why Tesla pre-sells battery pack replacements to owners for $12K (I think that's the number), believing that the cost will be not more than this in 8-10 years.
That would be awkward. If that's the case then Tesla has to stockpile a whole lot of battery packs at these stations, and you the owner would need to plan a trip back to the one where you dropped yours off.
The most significant problem I see with this program is that they charge $65 for the service. Paying for gas would be less expensive, per mile. But as I said, if you're thinking about cost, you're probably not buying a Tesla.
That doesn't address ANY of the concerns I've mentioned including what happens if someone else is using it/them? If Tesla takes off, do you seriously think they're going to keep up with demand for free energy? It's solar powered? What happens if the charging station is depleted? The same as if there are 3 others there waiting to recharge, extending the charge time from 20 minutes to anywhere from an hour and a half to 10 hours if it's winter time and dark out? Sorry, but you can't count on that regardless of what Elon Musk has stated. People (and more like companies) change and people often lie, even if unintentionally.
Who ever said a gas station was cheap to set up? Those aren't free. My point is it's a matter of time before these things are largely unusable either due to high demand (and even lack of sunlight) making the impractical or Tesla can't afford to maintain them (especially if they go out of business which is a real possibility for any new technology). I sure as heck wouldn't count on them. But then if i have $70k-90k to blow on what is largely a $30k sedan with high overhead costs due to low number production and new technology, I guess I wouldn't worry about fuel costs to begin with. I mean I'm amazed at the penny-pinching arguments thrown my way to convince me this is a great car when it costs 3x its value in a gas powered equivalent. How about a BMW 328i instead? It's not luxurious enough? It's been called the best luxurious sports sedan you can buy (http://www.cars.com/bmw/328/2013/expert-reviews). What am I going to get from a Tesla that this BMW can't provide in spades and be able to refuel in a fraction of the time?
Plus $40k overhead divided into the lifetime of the car. It does NOT cost you $4 in reality.
They're getting into it because someone (from the Green agenda) pushed legislation that forces them to make zero emission vehicles whether they're any good or not. The problem is that legislation just shifts the pollution to the power companies. Now if the power companies clean up their act you might have something; or you might just move the smog outside of the downtown area instead.
Electric vehicles will become useful when their inherent problems of slow recharge time and massive demand on the grid (should they ever actually become popular) are solved. Yeah, if 3000 people in L.A. have electric cars, it's not a problem. What happens if 3 MILLION have them? The grid can't keep up with that demand nor could any "free" charging station run on solar power. You don't notice these things because hardly anyone owns them and so the long-term problems aren't visibly apparent to you in 2014.
Come up with viable fusion power plants that eventually produce nearly free energy and you've got a winner. The problem is that businesses don't WANT free power. They want to soak you so their stockholders can make $$$$. It's why you'll likely never see a cure for the common cold or even cancer. There's no money in cures, only covering up symptoms. The car industry has only improved gas mileage recently due to laws FORCING them to do so. They all claimed it was going to destroy the industry, but in reality they've met the requirements with relative ease. But they would have preferred to pocket the money instead. The world of Star Trek where no one lacks for basic needs sounds wonderful, but the facts of reality are those in power want to stay in power and those that profit from an imbalance in income want to keep it that way. No one wants to share their lunch. Get your own is the rule of human race and I earned it is the credo no matter how extravagant the profits.
And how often does that battery pack need changed on average? How many people will want to put $12k into a car that eventually devalues to $5-10k with batteries as it keeps getting older? I'm sure people love the Prius when they get it new and keep replacing it before the point where it needs new batteries. But SOMEONE has to pay for those things and batteries need proper recycling or they're an even worse blight on the environment than a bit of carbon dioxide (that plants can change back to oxygen; plant some more trees people).
The packs last 8-10 years, I believe. Consequently, I'd estimate around $1,500 a year depreciation for the battery packs. Batteries are getting cheaper, while fossil fuels are becoming more expensive. The curves will cross, eventually.
These responses are pretty funny to me because I got all these questions over a YEAR ago when I first bought the car. The fact is that a lot of thinking has gone on by people much smarter than you or me to solve these issues. As far as supercharging goes, it's free right now and I'm enjoying the benefits. I'm sure it will last as long as Elon Musk is the CEO. Hopefully, I get to have that benefit for the 6-8 years I plan to own the car.
You're other questions are rather ignorant, IMO. Do you know how solar even works? It's not like it you can't charge in the dark. The SuperChargers are hooked up to the grid. They use solar to put energy back into the grid during peak times during the day and use grid power at night when it's cheaper. That's exactly how I use it at home and I typically have a zero or negative balance at the end of the month with the utility company.
The batteries aren't $40k. As was mentioned earlier, they are $12K and dropping every year. Unlike gas which goes up every year. Ten years ago, battery technology might have cost $100K, today it is $12K. Ten years ago, gas was a buck, today it's $4. Do you see a trend here? Which side do you want to be on?
Power companies are cleaning up their act not because they want to be green but because it is profitable. Natural gas is abundant and cheap (fracking) and coal is becoming too expensive to mine.
Guess when I charge 95% of the time? At night from 11pm-7am when electricity rates are the lowest and also when I'm sleeping. Guess when the grid has plenty of excess capacity. Yes, at night. The fact is the grid can handle it. For those who need to charge during the day, solar power assists the utility in creating more energy supply that is tied to the grid.
I don't plan to do change my battery pack for 8 years or 100k miles or more. I know someone who has a 2003 Prius with 150K miles and no change to the battery pack. I do know it's pretty easy to replace a battery pack and it will be cheaper in 8 years. How much does an engine rebuild cost? How much are e all those BMW parts that you have to replace every 60-80k miles? Trust me, I've owned BMWs, Porsches, and Mercedes. They are maintenance nightmares after you put some miles on it. And labor isn't cheap either.
You should get out of your isolated echo chamber and see what's happening in the world. It's called innovation.
BTW, I noticed you completely removed my comments around the Nissan Leaf. Do you still hold an opinion that EVs are only for rich people when you can get a Leaf for $25K and lease for $199 a month?
Laugh all you want. The problems are real and you are kidding yourself about the costs, IMO.
It's a good thing your opinion doesn't mean much to me.
I dare say I know exactly how it works and solar itself doesn't preclude using the power grid, necessarily. If someone tells me it costs Tesla nothing to operate (it would still cost them to build and maintain) as it is SOLAR, one would assume they are not using power from the grid. Now you tell me they are. Even so, whether they come out ahead or not on any given day will depend on demand. This is true of all solar along with how big the solar cell network is and of course how sunny it is. In other words, solar doesn't work as well in Ohio as it does in Arizona. Here, you can't hope more than to break-even over the life of the system given current prices to install and the typical weather, even subsidized.
But even so, let's say for sake of argument their charging stations currently break-even or thereabouts. What happens when you add more customers? It won't break even any longer and you'll have a line at the charging stations. Solution? Build more stations. Again, they're not free and solar cells take up space. Try to find free space in Manhattan, for example (hell try to find a gas station there; the land is so expensive it's not profitable to run one). The point is these charging stations are anything but free. They have to be costing Tesla millions to set up and someone is going to pay for them. Guess whom that might be? That would be YOU and your $40k premium on what is actually a $30k gas-equivalent sedan.
Who said they were? I was talking about the $40k difference in price between a gas powered sedan of equal quality and your electric wonder. You are paying about $40k more for the privilege of using a "FREE" charging station on a few of the U.S.'s freeways and you actually think they're "FREE". Unbelievable.
I want to be on the side of reason and not paying the price of a freaking mid-western house for a lousy sedan. I can get a nice sporty BMW 3 series (e.g. 328i) for less than 1/2 the cost of that base model with very similar power. 6-8 years and it will pay for itself? With a 50% charge range of 150 miles and at least 20 minutes for a stop on limited freeway locations or you might have to swap batteries to speed it up (assuming you can find a location that does that)? Sorry, but this technology isn't ready for prime time yet. If you want to waste your money on something you THINK is green, go ahead. I know that most power plants are still using fossil fuels like coal and natural gas or produce radioactive waste like nuclear. That's supposed to be SO much better than burning gasoline or clean diesel? No, it's only that way in the minds of people who don't think the whole process through from start to finish and only look at the end product (the car)'s exhaust and some "free" charging stations.
Now you can compare your car to a Mercedes or Rolls Royce or Porsche or whatever high-end status symbol you want due to its cost, but don't pretend this thing is either green or a good investment per traveled mile. It isn't. Trying to watch you guys polish a turd isn't funny. It's sad.
No, they're cleaning it up because they were mandated to clean it up. They're switching to natural gas because it's cheaper, but you don't mention the down side of fracking like the waste waters they use to pump into the wells and the companies that LIE and illegally dump that waste (like they did in Ohio recently) or the fact that earthquakes are being regularly caused by fracking (I experienced one of these myself a couple of years ago and two more when I was in Oklahoma on business last month. OMG! Where's these earthquakes coming from, they say on the news. It's a mystery. No, it's not. They're centered on the wells. When you lubricate the plates down in the earth, like any lubricant, they slide easier. Instant earthquake. They should try fracking on the San Andreas fault. It's time to rebuild LA and San Francisco into a newer more modern city anyway, right? There's no costs in rebuilding from earthquake damage. All those cracked foundations near fracking wells. The oil and gas industry are going to pay for those, right? No, they deny it's their fault and slip the politicians some money to look the other way. There's your "green" future.
Yeah, I fill the car up when it's getting low and the rates are same at night as in the day. Some people work night shift. They have to drive at night. They couldn't charge at night if they wanted to.
And that won't change if/when MILLIONS need to charge their cars at night? I think you'll find the excess capacity leaning towards the day time if that happens since it will STILL overload the grid. You are living in a dream world where about 200 of you in your area own this car and don't tax the grid for squat. Move that into the millions and I guarantee the grid will be inadequate and your "free" charger stations will have a line and you won't be able to get to it or use it in any kind of timely matter.
Electric cars might be nice for a place like Hawaii, where there is plenty of natural energy (geo-thermal, tides) and a relatively small population and very small distances to drive. It works less well in large cities or in areas with long distances to drive. But there's still the question of where the power that makes the electricity comes from if you want to push the green angle.
Yes, it can handle it right now with hardly any users. It CANNOT handle a large part of the population switching to electric without massive upgrades to the grid and that's a fact.
So Tesla uses a few solar stations. What about that Electric Leaf? Can it use Tesla's free stations? No. Again, try making electric work for large partsof the population with the grid, charging times and distances involved. It starts to fall flat. Now get a version that runs off a fuel cell when it's past its range (whether gas or hydrogen powered) and you've got a model that actually can work, assuming the costs can be made reasonable. Right now they cannot and that's why you don't see hydrogen fuel cell cars all over the place. All electric doesn't work well period, IMO. Our progress with batteries has been abysmal over the years. Fuel cells are improving, however.
If you need to rebuild an engine every 60-80k miles, you're doing something HORRIBLY WRONG to your vehicles. You might want to try a cheaper brand if those high-end ones are that freaking unreliable. Even my old 1988 Cavalier Z24 (first car) needed hardly anything done to it over its 130k life (before some lady ran a light and totaled it). I think I had one ECU module ($300) go bad plus two sets of spark plugs, a fuel filter, three batteries and regular oil changes and gas. That's it. Adjusted for current prices, it might have cost $40k to run over 16 years and 130k miles brand new (I actually bought it at 4 years old for $6k with 42k miles, so it was really more like $27k for me over 12 years. That's not the best car in the world, but it's a FAR FAR cry from $85-95k to run the base model Tesla over the same period and mileage and assuming one battery change in that time. Switch to a BMW 328i comparison, and you're still looking at $60k vs $95k and I dare say that car is no nicer than a BMW at best.
My last WRX had 80k on it when I traded it in and it needed NOTHING done to it but oil changes, a set of tires, one gas filter and spark plugs and one brake job over that 80k miles and 7 years. It still ran like it was brand new. I traded up to a newer model with more power and still got over half what I paid for the previous car back in a dealer trade. In short, that car cost me $8k plus gas/oil for 7 years use and it had 227HP. My current WRX is still worth over 80% its initial cost (real world cost vs current blue book), has 305HP and only 22k miles after 3 years and has cost me nothing but different tires (immediate change), oil changes and gas, thus far. I could trade it in for a brand new one of the same grade (Limited Edition) right now for about $6k-7k depending on the dealer's willingness to bargain (got the last one for $6k under retail because I paid CASH). That's $2k a year or $166 a month, a better deal than the 180HP non-turbo Impreza it's based on could be leased for and I have the limited edition plus a few other upgrades (subwoofer, etc.). No, it's not a luxury ride. It's an AWD all-terrain rally sports car, but I've got nearly every luxury feature you can think of anyway from leather heated seats, mirrors and windshield wipers to a moon roof and HID headlights. But it rides closer to a Corvette than a Cadillac. It also gets to 60mph in 4.7 seconds stock and it's easy to push that up once the warranty is up next month.
But hey, for an extra $60k (~3x the cost), I could have had about the same performance Tesla S with perhaps a nicer interior, but no AWD. In fact, it's rear wheel drive which is terrible for areas with a lot of snow. Sorry, but that alone is a big FAIL for me, regardless of cost. It's why I didn't consider a Mustang GT or even a Corvette or Boxster. They're 3 season cars at best unless you like being terrified driving to work in a blizzard. My friend has a Corvette, but he only drives it in nice weather. He has two other vehicles for daily driving for him and his wife (Avalanche and Cadillac).
I can get a Subaru Impreza for $199 a month to lease to with more power, the safety of AWD for bad weather and no range limitations and it can get a good 40mpg on the freeway even so. You have even more limitations with that car over any kind of distance. In other words, it's not worth even talking about.
For that matter, I can get a used Prius for $15k. I don't WANT one. Notice how my comparisons are with cars that have similar power. I cringe every time I get behind a Prius on the freeway ramp. I wonder if I'll even be going 40mph by the time it's time to merge at 70mph.
Laugh all you want. The problems are real and you are kidding yourself about the costs, IMO.
It's a good thing your opinion doesn't mean much to me.
You keep talking opinions. I'm giving you facts on my one year experience with the car. People are buying these cars as fast as they can make them and not returning them. Used car prices are not falling to the floor. Supercharging stations are getting built or expanded all the time. Go ahead and keep making up stuff since you haven't done the homework to know for sure. It's all a bunch of "what-ifs" from your end. The world is moving forward while you sit on your ass whining about it.
If Tesla keeps selling that many cars, isn't that a nice problem to have? They make 28% gross profit on each car compared to Ford's 9% or Porsche's 25%. Isn't that a good thing? Plenty of profits to make more superchargers. I know many have been expanded to 8 stations in the last few months based on usage increasing. Believe it or not, these guys are running a business and have a plan for this growth.
They have to be costing Tesla millions to set up and someone is going to pay for them. Guess whom that might be? That would be YOU and your $40k premium on what is actually a $30k gas-equivalent sedan. Who said they were? I was talking about the $40k difference in price between a gas powered sedan of equal quality and your electric wonder. You are paying about $40k more for the privilege of using a "FREE" charging station on a few of the U.S.'s freeways and you actually think they're "FREE". Unbelievable.
Why do keep talking about apples vs. oranges? A BMW 3 Series (a low end 328i 4 banger??) compared to a Tesla Model S? They are completely different classes of vehicle. The Model S is the size of a 7 Series and it should be compared to that. Or at least an optioned 5 Series since they share the same platform. Most people who are buying the Model S would normally buy a BMW 5/7, Mercedes E/S, Porsche Panamera, Audi S7, Lexus GS/LS, etc. The premium for the Model S is no more than $10K and actually cheaper when you add high performance options to those gas cars.
And coal is safer? Less hazardous? Oil from Middle East countries that hate us? That's better. Natural gas is cleaner than oil, diesel, coal, and a lot of other fossil fuels. I'd prefer nuclear but our government doesn't.
I bet I spent less time charging last year than you spent pumping gas. It takes me 15 seconds to plug in at night and unplug in the morning. Compared to your once a week 10 minute fill up.
"Oh no. We can't have everyone use the Internet. It will crash! We can't have all these people buying iPad and PCs with high-speed cable. What will happen to the Internet??"
Jeez. Do you realize they can built out more capacity as growth occurs?
Fuel cells are a joke. Where do you see one on the road? Electric cars are selling like hotcakes. The people have spoken. They want more of it and companies will supply them.
A Cavalier? Have you ever had a BMW or Mercedes serviced after warranty??
You keep comparing cheap apples and oranges. No one who is buying a Tesla Model S is going to buy a WRX or a 3 series.
I think you need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. Experience tells you it's worth $70k instead of $30k or $40k? Right. I'm not going to keep going over and over the nonsensical arguments you keep making for the rest of my life. I've wasted enough time with you. Enjoy your massively overpriced sedan.
Don't trust my opinion or experience. Ask the 8000 people who pay full MSRP every quarter for the Model S and thousands more on the waiting list.
Yes, 8000 people like you lining up to spend their money.... That paints quite a mental picture alright.
Hey, why not buy your wife one for her birthday while you're at it? What's another $70k to you? Come on, it's a bargain. Why should she be driving some POS Nissan when you've got a Tesla?
Afterwards, you can order yourself a 12-core Mac Pro maxed out just because it means you can afford things the rest of us can't justify. We'll all look stupid on Mac Minis and iMacs while you've got enough power to run all those HD monitors off one Mac Pro while you sit there and type, "HELLO WORLD" with all the power of 12 XEON CPU Cores! Oh yeah. It's only $9600. You can get at least 7 for the price of a Tesla. You'll be rocking the virtual roads of the Internet with your very own sleek and chic black trash can! Woo Hoo!
Yes, 8000 people like you lining up to spend their money.... That paints quite a mental picture alright.
Hey, why not buy your wife one for her birthday while you're at it? What's another $70k to you? Come on, it's a bargain. Why should she be driving some POS Nissan when you've got a Tesla?
Afterwards, you can order yourself a 12-core Mac Pro maxed out just because it means you can afford things the rest of us can't justify. We'll all look stupid on Mac Minis and iMacs while you've got enough power to run all those HD monitors off one Mac Pro while you sit there and type, "HELLO WORLD" with all the power of 12 XEON CPU Cores! Oh yeah. It's only $9600. You can get at least 7 for the price of a Tesla. You'll be rocking the virtual roads of the Internet with your very own sleek and chic black trash can! Woo Hoo!
You obviously can't justify buying the car so you continue to make up reasons why it's a bad idea for everyone that can. If this were 1920 you'd be the guy asking for a faster horse.
I have also had the Model S for the past year and it's an amazing car. You obviously have no idea since you have your head buried in the sand.
Consumer reports did customer surveys for all cars and the Model S scored the highest customer satisfaction score ever. Obviously it's not just Dmunjal and myself that love having the car.
http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-234B-3838
Based on your ridiculous what-if comments I KNOW without a doubt that you have never driven the Model S. If you did you'd know that comparing a Model S to $30k car is like comparing an Ruth's Chris steak to a McDonald's Big Mac. They are both food, why would anyone pay $80 for a meal when they can pay $3 for a happy meal right?
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There's a reason it's called "justify". If I had 10 BILLION dollars and it would be pocket change to buy a Tesla, I STILL couldn't justify it for the reasons given. Its utter lack of range and long charging times would annoy the living crap out of me. I see no value in this car what-so-ever for those reasons. If I had to spend around $90k on a car, I'd buy a Nissan GT-R. It blows away the Tesla in performance and I can still drive it anywhere in the country, not just along some extremely limited set of roads where I have to stop every 150 miles for almost a half hour. WTF is the point of that? A $70k-90k car should have no such limitation, in my opinion. But you don't have to mind those limitations (and apparently have at the very least convinced yourself that you don't). So why do you two keep beating this horse to death? Who are you trying to convince here? Me or yourself?
Frankly, what I see here are people that own this thing trying DESPERATELY to justify their purchase to themselves and they're taking it out on me. I mean if you honestly believe it takes $70k to get a "steak" instead of a "hamburger", I can't help you. I know that I've had some pretty tasty hamburgers in my day (not at McDonalds). Ruth's Chris is a chain. They have a good steak. I can make one just as good at my house. So what. Try something like Cowboy Ciao in Scottsdale instead. The have a nice Wagyu burger there. I prefer the pork belly appetizer. Their pastry chef is amazing, too.
I've seen people scoff at my $2k/pair Carver ribbon speakers with custom made active crossovers. And I don't mean people that think they were expensive. I mean these are the same ribbons that Genesis licensed to use in their $50k/pair Genesis II loudspeakers that got rated by the snobby high-end audio rag Stereophile Magazine as Class A. So one might imagine that they're actually pretty good drivers, but the fact the ONLY cost $2k a pair meant that Stereophile wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Hypocritical? Of course. They're paid by advertisers and they have to suck up to them with their reviews or they'd be out of business. So you find all kinds of nonsense in "high end" audio equipment that I won't bore you with here, but it all comes down ultimately to CUSTOMERS who read and believe this stuff who paid $100k on their system scoffing at someone who paid a mere $10k and so on and so forth to the nth degree. There are people that put $50k into a high-end turntable rig and they'll swear night and day how much better it sounds than CD. Well, it doesn't, but that won't stop them from screaming about it and swearing on a stack of Bible that it is so. Hey, why should I ruin their day and tell them they wasted their money? They'll spend the next month telling me how wrong I am and quote all kinds of Stereophile articles "proving" how wrong I am. Well hooray. I've heard those systems. I've heard high-end vinyl. I've built my own equipment. I record my own music in 24/96 and play piano, acoustic guitar and saxophone to boot. I know what live music sounds like. I know they wasted their money on an illusion. But hey, they LIKE that illusion. So let them enjoy it.
Hey, if you like your Tesla, by all means enjoy it. But please stop telling people they are eating Big Macs and have never driven a high-end car. You have no idea how much money I make and you have no idea what I've driven. You have no idea what I've done to my personal car or what hobbies I'm into (say tuner racing, for one possibility). Buying a Ferrari is a status thing, but taking a stock car like a Japanese make and making it that fast and then faster is more of a hobby. Why on EARTH would I want some overpriced pre-made NAME when I can have fun tinkering with a platform instead? I'm an electronic engineer that does a lot of mechanic work as well for a living. I don't need to roll into Jiffy Lube or BMW's service center. Perhaps there is no other real choices for a 4 season sports car than a WRX these days with a full manual transmission (show me one; there are none left). Yes, the GT-R could go in the snow, but not deep snow. My car is a blast in the winter. Your RWD Tesla would be all over the road by comparison.
Have a nice life. I'm done here.
yeah I considered that, but at the same time can you imagine the bad press Tesla will get swapping a crapped out battery to a customer that had a recent vehicle? If I was Tesla I'd spread the cost out and just replace the battery if one of these show up. How can they claim your battery is the one that needs replacing if you've been sharing around a set of batteries?
I don't own a Model S so I don't need to justify anything but I still think its a great car. From all the comments I've read I understand your position. Is a Tesla a more practical car than our combustion engine cars that we've tuned, refined and built infrastructure over a 100 years? Of course its not, but can we afford to stand here and pretend we can keep burning oil at the rate we've been doing so for the last 100 years? No.
Musk has always stated that his plan was to release a really high performance car with a expected price tag to level ferrari. now he has released a car at the price of a bmw/porsche. (yes a BMW that does 0-100 similar to a model S is getting close to the 70k mark). He's has openly stated his next iteration (ignoring the Model X) is going to be the japanese car price mark. Once we get there most of the arguments about cost should go away.
Next is the load on the grid, the solar argument doesn't really take the load off the grid as you said, but once EV's take off I'm sure there will be new innovations and products to take advantage of the demand. For example better battery packs to store power in homes which have been around for a while for those who are not grid tied. The future is going to be EV whether you like it or not. Even Porsche, Ferrari and McLaren have had to play with batteries with their new flagship models.
BTW they are already building a fusion power plant in france with an estimate completion date of 2020.
According to someone else posting in this thread, you get your batteries back at some point, but I don't know how that works, if true. The swap thing is all about allowing Tesla owners to make longer trips. It doesn't seem real practical to me.
They don't have to claim anything. At eight years or so, the batteries will hit the end of their service life. They won't hold a charge and you will have to replace them. They are also allowing customers to prepay for a battery pack replacement when they buy the car.