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By moving the DAC outside the box, the audiophile actually has a chance to improve a significant aspect of the hardware that reproduces the sound going into their headphones.

But the "audiophile" can already do that, also having a 3.5 jack doesn't stop them. Again, switching the connector isn't going to inherently improve sound quality. With lightning connector, it's entirely possible that many headphones include DAC that are worse than what is currently in phones. If Apple really wanted to improve sound quality, it would make much more sense to just put better DAC in the phone.

Apple didn't get to where it was today by stubbornly clinging on to old antiquated tech and refusing to change.

Except that 3.5 isn't antiquated tech. It's old but not outdated since it can pass audio as well as any other jack that exists.


You mean to tell me that in all this time, no one has come up with a technology that is better? Or is it simply that no one has bothered trying, because that would mean having to challenge and displace what they view to be a deeply entrenched technological standard, something they consider to be a fool's errand?

That's exactly what I mean to tell you. 3.5 is capable of passing the highest quality of audio that we have available (and then some), the only room for improvement is making a jack that is smaller, and in that case it's not just making tons of existing gear obsolete but potentially ending up with something that isn't as sturdy and prone to breakage. If there's some advantage a different jack could have other than being smaller I'd love to hear it.
 
Not according to the article, which states the new connector "have a DAC, or digital-to-audio converter, for backwards compatibility with wired headphones using standard 3.5mm stereo jacks."
Wouldn’t you still need a Lightning-to-3.5mm adapter? That would be less of an inconvenience than a dongle, but it would still be an inconvenience.
 
Fail. The unfounded claim is that there's something wrong or out of date with 3.5, and that switching to some newer connector will somehow magically improve quality. 3.5 is just connecting a wire to another wire that is passing analog signal, and until someone invents a speaker or headphone where the transducer itself is digital, there is always going to be wire passing analog signal from the D/A converter to the headphone. Changing the connector isn't going to change how the technology works at all, it's just going to be using the same hardware but just moving some of it from inside the phone to inside the headphones.

Thanks for clarifying. The virtues of copper conductors in barrel form connectors vs. flat, are not what's being generally discussed here. Since there is no analogue output via Lightning, the connector itself is completely irrelevant in this discussion. Rather the quality of the DAC as it exists inside the iPhone is what's being discussed. Not the means of delivery of the resulting signals.

I invite you to see my previous response for more detail:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...tning-connector.1941037/page-35#post-22312188

If you'd like to present evidence that there is no improvement in the quality of audio as converted by a higher quality outboard DAC than that present inside the iPhone, I'm happy to discuss it.
 
Wouldn’t you still need a Lightning-to-3.5mm adapter? That would be less of an inconvenience than a dongle, but it would still be an inconvenience.

The lightning connector doesn't pass analog audio, correct? And I assume it doesn't have any unused pins that could be used for that? In the case of the 30 pin connector some of those pins actually passed analog audio. If lightning included the same then it would just require a simple adapter instead of an external DAC (similar to what is inside the lightning to 30 pin adapter).

https://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/1...apart-reveals-several-chips-and-copious-glue/



The virtues of copper conductors in barrel form connectors are not what's being generally discussed here.
In fact that's what I was responding to, there are a number of people that seem to think that 3.5 is a bottleneck that hampers sound quality, when that just isn't true.

The 3.5mm jack is beyond outdated at this point and I'm sure part of their reasoning is to improve audio quality.

Switching from 3.5 to some other jack isn't in itself going to improve sound quality.

If you're just saying that users have the option to use an external DAC that is better than the one in the phone, that's true but that is an option already and irrelevant to whether the phone includes 3.5 or not.

If Apple were to remove 3.5 it's likely that some users would end up with improved sound quality and some would end up with worse. And frankly I'm not optimistic that any headphones Apple would include with the phone would have a better DAC than what is in the phone now.
 
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Thanks for clarifying. The virtues of copper conductors in barrel form connectors vs. flat, are not what's being generally discussed here. Since there is no analogue output via Lightning, the connector itself is completely irrelevant in this discussion. Rather the quality of the DAC as it exists inside the iPhone is what's being discussed. Not the means of delivery of the resulting signals.

I invite you to see my previous response for more detail:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...tning-connector.1941037/page-35#post-22312188

If you'd like to present evidence that there is no improvement in the quality of audio as converted by a higher quality outboard DAC than that present inside the iPhone, I'm happy to discuss it.

It is not "progress" to use a better quality outboard DAC. People have been doing that for years... And it is cumbersome.

It IS progress to improve the DAC inside the phone. The iPhone could have a MUCH better camera if it was external and plugged into the Lightning jack, but that isn't progress either.

Of course outboard DACs are better than what is in the phone today. But if Apple releases an adaptor with a DAC that is better, than the adaptor will have to be small enough that they could've just put it in the phone to begin with.

The iPhone is what it is today because it converged so many devices. Now we're going to pull the iPod out of it to save 1/40th of the space inside the case? Surely the audio is more than 1/40th the utility of the device.

Bluetooth audio doesn't even enter the equation for me. It can't even come close to the current DAC's wired output. It drains the phone AND the headphones. It has a LONG way to go.
 

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If Apple were to remove 3.5 it's likely that some users would end up with improved sound quality and some would end up with worse. And frankly I'm not optimistic that any headphones Apple would include with the phone would have a better DAC than what is in the phone now.
I also share your fears. Lower end headphones will need to absorb the extra cost of an onboard DAC and the MFI licence fee to use the Lightning connector so corners will have to be cut elsewhere if the cost to consumers is kept the same. They could even end up sounding worse or costing a fair bit more to acheive a similar sound quality.
 
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Gotta love how people are freaking out about a rumor. Even if it turns out to be true, shouldn't we all reserve judgement to see why they would go to a Lightning port? Maybe the audio quality is better. Maybe it improves the iPhones battery life. Maybe it allows them to go thinner. Maybe it's easier to make it water resistant. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Apple makes design decisions just to piss people off and force them to buy more things from them.

Maybe it's simply to further trim away anything that's not absolutely necessary. I realize that a lot of people disagree, but I like fewer ports and buttons on my devices. Simplify, simplify, simplify. I believe that Apple's success has been built pretty much on this foundation. This is why none of the Macs have optical drives anymore. This is why their mice don't have multiple buttons. This is why they keep eliminating wires and ports. This is why they shrank the 30 pin port to the Lightning port. People protest. They always protest. But there's usually a good longer term reason, and more often than not, it works out for the better. (Granted, I still miss the Apple Extended Keyboard II)

There is a lot of things that aren't "absolutely necessary" doesn't mean we want them trimmed away.
 
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This just sounds annoying, is there no way to make some kind of port that handles a new standard and the 3.5mm standard at the same time (for backwards compatibility)?
 
This just sounds annoying, is there no way to make some kind of port that handles a new standard and the 3.5mm standard at the same time (for backwards compatibility)?
When (if) the problem with the 3.5mm jack is its size, that will not work. It cannot be shrunk and still be backwards compatible. The size of the thing is my problem with it. I'd rather have Apple use the space for something I care about. If I was an audio afficionado I might consider the space well spent. But I'm not, so I don't.
 
As long as the new connector is not as sturdy as the 3.5mm jack and does not rotate, I'm not having it. The 3.5mm jack is engineering brilliance, otherwise it wouldn't have lasted for decades and proven superior to countless attemps of replacing it with something else.

How is the Lightning connector not as sturdy as the 3.5mm Jack?

And why does rotating matter at all? If the plug rotates easily then the connections are not very secure. And by the time you put enough torque on the cable to cause a proper connection to rotate, the damage is likely done on the plug anyway. The reason the phone plug is round is to facilitate quickly pulling it in and out of a phone switchboard to make connections without having to worry about plug orientation. The same functionality applies to audio connectors in a professional audio studio, and down to consumers plugging in their headphones. The last thing a professional wants is an audio connector that easily rotates, which can only introduce noise. For what possible purpose?

The lightning connector serves the purpose of quick reversible orientation for inserting, which does not have to be as quick as the old time telephone switchboard, or even quickly as for a professional recording studio setup. It's robust, and can be reversed 180 degrees, which is plenty for the average consumer. And aside from a headphone jack, which I can't imagine the need for it to rotate, any device that needs that kind of flexibility, for which I'm currently at a loss (maybe something like a Square card reader?), could then have the rotational ability built-in. That would actually put less stress on the connector anyway, and rather than wear out the jack, wear out the connector.

If a 3.5mm jack were superior to Lightning, Apple could have easily expanded on what they have already been using for the iPod Shuffle, by simply adding 5 more discrete poles to the 3.5mm pin. Here's a 5-pole connector, just needs four more. A simple detector would be able to determine what kind of audio plug was inserted, and deliver 8 pins of digital data & current, or 4 pins of analogue audio. So why didn't they? They have a patent on the slim 3.5mm connector already that would allow them to go slimmer at the loss of this vital need to rotate, while maintaining compatibility with existing 3.5mm jacks. So it's not that. Maybe it's just not as good a connector as Lightning for the 21st century.

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But the "audiophile" can already do that, also having a 3.5 jack doesn't stop them. Again, switching the connector isn't going to inherently improve sound quality. With lightning connector, it's entirely possible that many headphones include DAC that are worse than what is currently in phones. If Apple really wanted to improve sound quality, it would make much more sense to just put better DAC in the phone.

Except that 3.5 isn't antiquated tech. It's old but not outdated since it can pass audio as well as any other jack that exists ... 3.5 is capable of passing the highest quality of audio that we have available (and then some), the only room for improvement is making a jack that is smaller, and in that case it's not just making tons of existing gear obsolete but potentially ending up with something that isn't as sturdy and prone to breakage. If there's some advantage a different jack could have other than being smaller I'd love to hear it.

Of course an audiophile can plug into a Lightning jack currently. But it's redundant. Apple already provides this ability through Lightning, yet they offer a dedicated single function audio jack as well. And it takes up a lot of room for a mobile device starved for more battery.

Apple is unlikely to make any adapter they offer worse than their built-in DAC. In fact I feel like the DAC in the Apple Lightning dock is actually superior to that used in the phone. Third party, non-MiFi adapters, on the other hand you bet. But anyone buying one of those will likely not even notice, and to the extent they will, are already having this experience with similar third party adapters and chargers. So it's not really Apple's problem to compensate for unauthorized peripheral products a customer choses to purchase.

Apple could easily move back to 2.5mm jacks which were the standard for mobile phones at one point. But that doesn't solve the redundancy problem, and the internal circuitry takes up almost as much room. There was a time when the 1/4" headphone jack was the standard, only the move to mobile devices changed that. And there was a period where most high quality headphones came with adapters. And people needed to use adapters in order to navigate a world of hybrid equipment. As far as I know it didn't put any manufacturers out of business who still included 1/4" jack in their rack equipment. The new $1200 Denon amp I have now in fact has a 1/4" headphone jack. So I don't see the relevancy of this argument. Adapters are a fact of life in todays world, and have always been in the world of audio.

Why do you need to remove the 3.5mm socket to use an outboard DAC?

Because it takes up a lot of internal space, performs only one function, and is redundant to a port that does everything the dedicated audio jack does, and likely better.

It is not "progress" to use a better quality outboard DAC. People have been doing that for years... And it is cumbersome.

It IS progress to improve the DAC inside the phone. The iPhone could have a MUCH better camera if it was external and plugged into the Lightning jack, but that isn't progress either.

Of course outboard DACs are better than what is in the phone today. But if Apple releases an adaptor with a DAC that is better, than the adaptor will have to be small enough that they could've just put it in the phone to begin with.

The iPhone is what it is today because it converged so many devices. Now we're going to pull the iPod out of it to save 1/40th of the space inside the case? Surely the audio is more than 1/40th the utility of the device.

Bluetooth audio doesn't even enter the equation for me. It can't even come close to the current DAC's wired output. It drains the phone AND the headphones. It has a LONG way to go.

Improving the quality of the DAC inside the phone puts the cost burden on Apple and increases the cost of the phone, regardless if it must be miniaturized to a size capable of fitting inside the phone. Besides, it's not about the size of the DAV, it's about the size of the 3.5mm audio jack. And it's something not everybody needs or wants -- why should I pay for an improved internal DAC for you, when I use Bluetooth, or my Apple earbuds? Adding an external camera is not as convenient as a simple inline dongle that at most extends the length of a customer's headphone cable. And for most, they will simply upgrade to a pair of Lightning headphones if the adapter is an issue. If most of Apple's customers only use Apple products, why would they cater to other manufacturers standards, especially if it's at increased cost? Most of the headphones I see at the gym are Bluetooth. And you're kidding yourself if you're listing to 128bit mp3s, or streaming audio and think your high quality wired headphones are in anyway superior to Bluetooth. And if you're listening to lossless audio more critically then I would think you should probably embrace a pair of Lightning headphones.

I also share your fears. Lower end headphones will need to absorb the extra cost of an onboard DAC and the MFI licence fee to use the Lightning connector so corners will have to be cut elsewhere if the cost to consumers is kept the same. They could even end up sounding worse or costing a fair bit more to acheive a similar sound quality.

So Apple instead will absorb the cost to improve the quality of it's onboard DAC? It's unlikely the average consumer would not pay an additional $10 to Apple for an iPhone, nor would they refuse to buy a pair of headphones for $10 more. Apple has steadily raised the price of their iPhone docks by $10/generation since the iPhone 4, which are evidently so successful they now offer them in 5 color choices. More likely a customer will start looking at Bluetooth headphones if they think $10 Lightning headphones are too expensive. Or they may opt for the non-Lightning model and instead buy a higher quality adapter. But switching to Android, Samsung, or Windows over it is not likely a realistic option. And considering the audio quality which most customers experience from compressed mp3s and streaming music, they are not likely to notice a drop in audio quality -- which probably accounts for the fact that wireless Bluetooth headphones are by far the most widely used headphone in any gym I've been in this year. The Watch is only going to accelerate that trend.

Modern consumers understand you get what you pay for. And to the extent brand and style trump it, then quality will take an acceptable leap -- which likely explains why Beats are some of the most expensive and widely used headphones in the world.
 
Just for reference, here's an image that shows how much space the headphone port takes up. If you see a top down view, you would also see, there's additional layout space taken up by the two screw hole plates and the connector to the Lightning port assembly. In a phone where every cubic millimeter counts, that's pretty significant. I could see how the headphone port might be a major impediment to designing a smaller upper and lower bezel, which many people have wanted.
csm_ifixit_open_3917469c05.jpg
 
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Improving the quality of the DAC inside the phone puts the cost burden on Apple and increases the cost of the phone, regardless if it must be miniaturized to a size capable of fitting inside the phone. Besides, it's not about the size of the DAV, it's about the size of the 3.5mm audio jack. And it's something not everybody needs or wants -- why should I pay for an improved internal DAC for you, when I use Bluetooth, or my Apple earbuds?

If this argument is going to turn into why should one person pay for this when they don't need it and why should another person pay for that, then I guess I deserve a refund for a whole ton of iPhone components over the years.

We can start with 6 pairs of the garbage earbuds/EarPods that come in the box. I'm tired of paying for those.

I'm sure there's some antenna bands in there that don't work with my cell service. I'll take the R&D and component cost refund on those.

I have an Apple Watch, so I'm sick of paying for a second NFC chip to live in the phone. Screw everyone else, it's about one person's needs right?

And if this is about saving Apple money, they could save a ton of money by leaving the jack alone and not bundling EarPods for the 9th year in a row.
 
Just for reference, here's an image that shows how much space the headphone port takes up. If you see a top down view, you would also see, there's additional layout space taken up by the two screw hole plates and the connector to the Lightning port assembly. In a phone where every cubic millimeter counts, that's pretty significant. I could see how the headphone port might be a major impediment to designing a smaller upper and lower bezel, which many people have wanted.
csm_ifixit_open_3917469c05.jpg
To be honest they should go all wireless too while they are at it, look at all the space the lightning port takes up. Everything it does can be done using some wireless technology.
 
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Just for reference, here's an image that shows how much space the headphone port takes up. If you see a top down view, you would also see, there's additional layout space taken up by the two screw hole plates and the connector to the Lightning port assembly. In a phone where every cubic millimeter counts, that's pretty significant. I could see how the headphone port might be a major impediment to designing a smaller upper and lower bezel, which many people have wanted.
csm_ifixit_open_3917469c05.jpg

Look at how much space that screen takes up! It's time for it to go. Humans have been looking at screens for a century now. Good riddance.
 
Look at how much space that screen takes up! It's time for it to go. Humans have been looking at screens for a century now. Good riddance.

Absolutely. And since someone could just connect an external screen instead, it's "redundant" too!
 
uh, yes there is. The phone still needs an internal DAC, but now every set of headphones you want to use needs one too that adds bulk and cost while degrading sound quality as the DAC integrated into a set of $20 earbuds is going to be absolute junk.

the adapter will have the DAC for those that still want to use a 3.5mm headphones, no DAC inside the iPhone for the 3.5mm headphones.
headphones that deliver over lightning will vary in quality for internal DACs, which some will justify its >$100 price.

either way this saves space inside the phone for other stuff, like the battery or make the iPhone even thinner (whether we like it or not)
 
Wireless headphones...check
Wireless charging...check
Totally waterproof iPhone....check
I'm loving where this is going....:):):)
The Apple Watch has got the first two but isn't totally waterproof, I think you need to get rid of the pesky microphone and speaker first. ;)

So Apple instead will absorb the cost to improve the quality of it's onboard DAC?
What's wrong with the current onboard DAC? :confused:
 
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