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I've used and lived with Sonos speakers, and I can complain quite easily.

Their universal app is garbage, playing feature- and UI-catchup with the audio players and services it attempts to integrate. And if your preferred audio player or service (like Overcast or Apple Music) isn't part of the Sonos family, well, tough luck.

That said, I'll buy a couple Play:3s for my annual Christmas party. Sadly, the Sonos are still the best option for multi-room streaming.

But I'll be returning them the next day.
 
Whoa, this is huge. That's the big thing that's kept me from buying into Sonos, looks like I have some cash to give up.

That combined with Amazon Video app rumored to be coming to Apple TV is making this into a very good week!
 
No doubt it's a great product. But even you imply that today it's a small market. You predict it will explode, but it hasn't yet. As soon as it begins to explode, don't doubt for a second that larger competitors will enter this market and do so very quickly and with the sort of scale that Sonos will have a lot of trouble staying ahead of.

Take Bose for example: they have 200 retail stores, a dedicated shelf in most Best Buys, Targets, and other electronics retailers, and a giant sponsorship agreement with the NFL. If the market was large enough, they would be in it and they would probably have more sales than Sonos does today. Quality of product and software aside, Bose simply has a really strong operations capability. That's just one example - many other companies out there with an even stronger position. I have to wonder, why is this market so quiet? The most likely explanation is that it is still small, and nascent.

Another explanation is maybe Sonos has patents which are keeping competitors out. If that is the case, then that is great for them. That also would explain the high prices.

I should add that I wish Sonos will see great success. I only commented on the price earlier to express my opinion that it is priced too high. I'm sure some economist working for the company has already crunched the numbers and can probably prove me wrong, but I suspect it would be best to sell for a lower price today to gain more users who might upgrade or add more speakers in the long run than it would be price all speakers high. They don't have a single lead-generating product for sale. That is a mistake, in my opinion.
But that's the thing - other than Bose there aren't any competitors in the space that are larger than Sonos. As you also now know, Bose have released their own multiroom networked player but it isn't impacting Sonos at all. None of the other systems from competitors have either. I think this is because while all these speaker and amp manufacturers can make great hardware, it's the software side that is letting them down. They don't have the resources or the expertise. Then compare this with Sonos who are really a technology and software company who also make great hardware. I couldn't imagine any of them catching up.
 
While Sonos can be used as a single stand-alone speaker, it is not really designed for such a simple use case. Other than the fact that they both produce music, the Apple Hi-Fi and a Sonos system are so very different.

As for being "the best audio quality"...of course they are not. Not even the staunchest Sonos advocate will say that. Even if you use a Connect or Connect Amp and other speakers, you are still talking about limited resolution music files being streamed, so it will never be "the best" quality. But then again, when talking audio quality, realize that some people pay $10,000+ for speakers. Consider the context.

My point was that SONOS would not necessarily have been a huge hit just because Apple made it... They've had failures before.

As for the best quality, that wasn't my point either... With AirPlay speakers, you have far more and better options... you can stream lossless as well. But like Bose and Beats, I think many users who would've been better served by AirPlay speakers opt for SONOS because it's popular.
 
So? By the way, NFC is now in its second hardware generation and second major iOS version without a public API in sight.

"So?" I think I make the point quite clear. Apple often starts off with closed functionality but open it up after a while. And yes, it is also often after a few generations that they do it. My initial point was that Apple is becoming ever more open and it is. The fact that some functionality is still closed does not change that trend.
 
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While I agree with what people are saying here in that Sonos is over priced. After a lot of searching I could not find a decent competitor, a nice looking speaker, with great sound quality that allows you to group multiple speakers over a network, they have the market locked down. The only brand that even comes close is Bose with soundtouch but the UI looks terrible. I know you can group airplay speakers on your mac but I'm not willing to get out my mac every time I want to listen to music. Sonos needs a decent competitor before their prices are going to change at the moment I don't think their is one out there.

Also for those that are saying sonos should add airplay this seems to be down to licensing, where airplay can not be used on grouped speakers system. Bose removed airplay to add a grouping system.


You haven't search properly..

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/raumfeld-audio-streaming.html?PHPSESSID=d0dj9uc762gvd19teml9ettk04
 
As someone who worked in the audio industry let me say this.

Sonos absolutely kills this. They have 90% market share.

Why? Bose is bigger, Denton is bigger, Samsung and Lg are much bigger brands with more money?

It's the app and services. There isn't a single other product that does multi room easier or better. Simple as that. The customer sat ratings for sonos are insanely high and people buy multiple units! Unlike the competition sonos in retail sells in bundles, 2 X play 1s or multiple units at a time.

The retailers hate this as they have little margin from sonos and have been pushing the competition hard. Yet the customers don't want it.

Take Bose, their soundtouch app is terrible. Clunky and has limited services. Denons app sucks Samsung and LG can't get it to work properly in store let alone at home and only sell as they give retailers $$$ to move the units.

Yes there are better sounding speakers but none of them do what sonos does - great app, all the services and great hardware.
 
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I've used and lived with Sonos speakers, and I can complain quite easily.

Their universal app is garbage, playing feature- and UI-catchup with the audio players and services it attempts to integrate. And if your preferred audio player or service (like Overcast or Apple Music) isn't part of the Sonos family, well, tough luck.

That said, I'll buy a couple Play:3s for my annual Christmas party. Sadly, the Sonos are still the best option for multi-room streaming.

But I'll be returning them the next day.
Interesting how we can have such different opinions.

The Sonos App is wonderful and does an excellent job of bringing together a load of different music sources in to a coherent single interface. Compared to the mess that is Spotify, Deezer, Google, Tidal etc etc the Sonos app is far far better.

I look forward to trying Apple Music. I haven't bothered even with the free trial up to now as without Sonos support I saw no point. I'm certainly not wanting to learn yet another poorly thought out UI.
 
"So?" I think I make the point quite clear. Apple often starts off with closed functionality but open it up after a while. And yes, it is also often after a few generations that they do it. My initial point was that Apple is becoming ever more open and it is. The fact that some functionality is still closed does not change that trend.

I simply answered your question: "So, in what way is Apple now more closed than any of its major competitors?"

Whether or not Apple is becoming more or less open over time is a completely subjective question so there is really no point in discussing it.
 
Amazed to see so much Sonos hate in here frankly, always thought of them as being an Apple-esque brand where you pay a premium for tightly integrated hardware/software and resulting impressive user experience. I used to run a fairly large AirPlay centric setup at home (3-4 years ago) and it was OK but streaming options were limited and performance could be flaky at times. Moved to Sonos (mostly play 1s with a couple of 3s and a connect for the turntable) and never looked back. The connect is overpriced but other wise (1s especially) I don't think they're terrible value even.
 
I just got the Sonos 2 play 1 bundle during Thanksgiving, and must say so far I love them. Of course I did just sign up for Spotify for 6 months, so I think I will continue to use that first and then switch over to Apple Music.
 
It might have been more to the point if Apple had done some work on getting the streaming of their music service to work in all the countries they sell it in. A lot of UK users like myself get very slow song start up and then constant buffering stops. Since I could stream Qobuz in high quality previously with no problems and currently stream both video and Spotify Premium perfectly, it is obviously Apple's problem not mine. When I complained very politely and asked for a solution, Apple's response was to cancel my subscription. When I complained about this very high handed behaviour, I was told that was what customer service had been told to do: "Don't try and sort any problems, just refund and cancel their subscription." That really makes for good customer relations - NOT.
 
Interesting how we can have such different opinions.

The Sonos App is wonderful and does an excellent job of bringing together a load of different music sources in to a coherent single interface. Compared to the mess that is Spotify, Deezer, Google, Tidal etc etc the Sonos app is far far better.

The problem is exactly in the definition -- you're trying to access a dozen different services from one app. Each service comes with its own slightly different ways of searching and browsing, slightly different terminology and capability... and subject to change over time. Of course capturing it all in one monolithic app is going to miss certain nuances of certain services not to mention look and feel inconsistent. There's probably no easy answer to this. Maybe Sonos could open up a "play to Sonos" API so that you can have the choice of controlling the service from the Sonos app or from the service's own app?

I still maintain that requiring the use of an app is the wrong approach. They used to sell a dedicated remote, but discontinued it when everyone started using their phones. When I walk into my kitchen and decide I want some music, I don't want to have to reach into my pocket, grab my phone, unlock it, start the Sonos app, select the kitchen zone, select a source, select the song, select Play... I'd much rather just press a button on the player itself. Sonos can pause/unpause an existing playback stream but I still think they should take a cue from Bose SoundTouch and add a couple of "favourites" buttons. On the plus side, Sonos has a playback API and I could probably rig up my own Sonos touch panel with a Raspberry Pi, or I could buy a cheap tablet and dedicate it to the task...
 
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I simply answered your question: "So, in what way is Apple now more closed than any of its major competitors?"

Whether or not Apple is becoming more or less open over time is a completely subjective question so there is really no point in discussing it.

How is it subjective? There is a clear trend observable from the viewpoint of the consumer (the most relevant viewpoint). From that viewpoint Apple has become massively more open than it was 5 or even 10 years ago. The fact that there is no api (yet) for NFC use doesn't really change that at all.

And you didn't answer the question at all. I didn't ask which specific functionality others have opened while Apple hasn't. I asked in more broad terms how others are more open than Apple. A few API's that are not existing (yet) don't change the fact that we have multiple video and music sources at our disposal on all products, can exchange that media between any device we might have (including non-Apple) and have the largest selection of application available compared to any platform.

For all intents and purposes the iOS platform provides the general consumer (I stress: the 90% of consumers not interested in tinkering with settings, jailbreaking and advanced functions) with the most convenient, user friendly and flexible user experience around.
 
My point was that SONOS would not necessarily have been a huge hit just because Apple made it... They've had failures before.

As for the best quality, that wasn't my point either... With AirPlay speakers, you have far more and better options... you can stream lossless as well. But like Bose and Beats, I think many users who would've been better served by AirPlay speakers opt for SONOS because it's popular.

Agree...just because it is Apple does not guarantee success of course. But Sonos is in fact a success, and in my estimation likely to continue that success at least until there is some other company and/or technology that unseats its current stronghold. Imagine if that were Apple. If Apple had a product identical to Sonos in every way, I believe it would be a gigantic hit. Of course, if I were correct, then Apple likely would be doing it! ;-)

As for AirPlay speakers having more/better options, that is subjective, and I disagree. If you want to invest in better speakers, Sonos is 100% open to that, just like AirPlay (I am not debating cost, that's again subjective, and what might be expensive to you may not be to me and vice versa). Further, Sonos has the software/infrastructure that has capabilities well well beyond AirPlay's capabilities.
 
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I'm not sure I follow your logic with your statement that Sonos requires you to "either have bought music or be a subscriber to a monthly service." What exactly are you trying to say? Are you saying there are no free music options with Sonos, because there are many (Pandora, iHeartRadio, etc.) You can also play music from your own collection from a NAS or other network location. You talk about your other speakers that "access all of my music", but what other music can you not access with the Sonos??

The UI to virtually every other music product is also "not great". Just in the 2 years I've been in the Sonos ecosystem the UI has improved dramatically and they continue to improve, as well as to innovate with things like TruePlay. Speaking of...you say the "speaker is terrible", but have you tried TruePlay? Have you adjusted the audio settings at all for your speaker? The Play:3 is generally the least-favored speaker in their lineup by most folks I've talked to. IMO, the 3 and the 5 (previous version, not the new one) both sound terrible before tweaking the audio settings, but that doesn't make them terrible speakers. I'm able to get excellent sound out of both, and the new TruePlay optimization makes them even better. The Play:1 and the Playbar/SUB combo are their best sounding products IMO. I own 5 of the Play:1's, 1 each of the 3 and 5, and the Playbar and SUB. Every one of them sounds killer with some tweaking to taste.

I'm saying I was sorely disappointed that after spending $300 for a highly reviewed supposedly quality product that I couldn't play what music I wanted to play. Want to use Spotify, nope. Must have a subscription. Have a subscription to Apple Music, sorry no offering here. Pandora is available, but no thank you. My expectations, based on there own website, "Search across services to access all the music on earth. Find the latest and greatest free, trial and paid music streaming services you love." I couldn't play from the streaming services that I love.

Secondly, I shouldn't have to tweek a speaker so it does not, in your words, "sound terrible". Tweeking to slightly improve sound quality due to all the factors Sonos mentions in the marketing, sure I agree with that. Every room and situation is different. But, I just want clear sound no matter what genre of music I'm listening. And when a $300 speaker sounds horrible at 3/4+ volume regardless of the music played, it's a terrible value for me pure and simple.

I'm glad this product exists and that other people find value in it. That's good news for me when I list the PLAY:3 on eBay this weekend and try to recoup some of the money I wasted.
 
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As for AirPlay speakers having more/better options, that is subjective, and I disagree. If you want to invest in better speakers, Sonos is 100% open to that, just like AirPlay (I am not debating cost, that's again subjective, and what might be expensive to you may not be to me and vice versa). Further, Sonos has the software/infrastructure that has capabilities well well beyond AirPlay's capabilities.

You are 100% correct about the ability to stream lossless, as Sonos cannot do that at all. I would never say Sonos is perfect, only that so much of the chat on boards like this tends to be either fully pro or fully against Sonos.
There is a price difference, it isn't subjective. Whether or not you care about money is a personal issue, but has nothing to do with whether there is a price difference.

The bad thing for Sonos is that Google is getting into this market and overlapping some of their advantages over Airplay. If Google follows through, you will have multi-room, streaming directly from the web, iOS and Android functionality. The question is whether Google will follow through, but right now, they have a $35 device that does much the same thing as the $350 Connect.

I do think that Airplay and Sonos are different markets, but that isn't to say that one is better than the other for everyone. The advantages of Airplay are price, it is built into audio products with published specs, there is more variety, so you can get a battery operated speaker if you need one, it works with video and audio, it works with more apps, it is built into iOS, so you can access it from the lockscreen, it works with the apps built by the streaming company with all of the features rather than a limited feature list that has too work with a third party app, you can move from bluetooth in the car to Airplay at home with the touch of a button, etc.

The Sonos advantages are for people that need multiple rooms playing music at the same time or people that have archaic routers and/or need compatibility with Android. It should be noted that Airplay can also play to multiple rooms, but a computer needs to be in the mix for most applications (with the exception of Whaale app). Also, Airplay doesn't have the same versatility because it is isn't focused on multi-zone situations. In other words, if you need differnt music playing in your kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom, then Sonos can meet that need, while Airplay is currently limited in that area (Note: it is possible via Synology's DS Audio app, so Airplay is capable, but Apple has chosen not to make the feature available in their software).

Personally, I prefer Airplay, but I can see that there is a market for both.
 
It might have been more to the point if Apple had done some work on getting the streaming of their music service to work in all the countries they sell it in. A lot of UK users like myself get very slow song start up and then constant buffering stops. Since I could stream Qobuz in high quality previously with no problems and currently stream both video and Spotify Premium perfectly, it is obviously Apple's problem not mine. When I complained very politely and asked for a solution, Apple's response was to cancel my subscription. When I complained about this very high handed behaviour, I was told that was what customer service had been told to do: "Don't try and sort any problems, just refund and cancel their subscription." That really makes for good customer relations - NOT.

Maybe they simply have too long of an existing support queue. Rather than string you along with an issue they may not have time to resolve, better to simply refund your money.

But your complaint is off-topic anyways. We have NO IDEA what resources Apple devoted to this. I doubt it was substantive. I suspect most of the heavy lifting was done at Sonos with guidance and review from Apple software engineers.
 
There is a price difference, it isn't subjective. Whether or not you care about money is a personal issue, but has nothing to do with whether there is a price difference.

The bad thing for Sonos is that Google is getting into this market and overlapping some of their advantages over Airplay. If Google follows through, you will have multi-room, streaming directly from the web, iOS and Android functionality. The question is whether Google will follow through, but right now, they have a $35 device that does much the same thing as the $350 Connect.

I do think that Airplay and Sonos are different markets, but that isn't to say that one is better than the other for everyone. The advantages of Airplay are price, it is built into audio products with published specs, there is more variety, so you can get a battery operated speaker if you need one, it works with video and audio, it works with more apps, it is built into iOS, so you can access it from the lockscreen, it works with the apps built by the streaming company with all of the features rather than a limited feature list that has too work with a third party app, you can move from bluetooth in the car to Airplay at home with the touch of a button, etc.

The Sonos advantages are for people that need multiple rooms playing music at the same time or people that have archaic routers and/or need compatibility with Android. It should be noted that Airplay can also play to multiple rooms, but a computer needs to be in the mix for most applications (with the exception of Whaale app). Also, Airplay doesn't have the same versatility because it is isn't focused on multi-zone situations. In other words, if you need differnt music playing in your kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom, then Sonos can meet that need, while Airplay is currently limited in that area (Note: it is possible via Synology's DS Audio app, so Airplay is capable, but Apple has chosen not to make the feature available in their software).

Personally, I prefer Airplay, but I can see that there is a market for both.

When was the last time Google actually followed through completely? That's always kind of been their downfall, getting something almost there, then moving on to another version before it's really finished.
 
I see all the argument, but I'd like to ask won't Sonos with Airplay actually be better? I'd like if I can Airplay youtube, or when I'm playing games on the phone or iPad. Or maybe even connect my laptop to it so I can move around in my room while still get good sound from it.

I'm game if they can do Airplay. I'm okay with the $200+, but I'd like it to do a bit more.
I love Sonos and am fortunate to have music throughout the house for about six years now. Its Great!
I live in a very rural location with no broadband but do get 45MB download on 4G double speed, but it is capped at 50GB a month at present.

My service of choice is Google Play Music (I've tried all the main ones).

Anyway back to my point you _can_ airplay to Sonos just not with Play 1 or Play 3. I airplay dowloaded tracks approx 80GB on GPM ios app from iphone 6. Saving on my 50GB cap.

I can airplay to all zones I use the line in with airport express to a Play 5.

It is also possible to airplay with apple TV to Sonos.

So if you like Sonos and want to airplay you can (as long as there is a line in on your Sonos device).

Hope this clears your slight error.

cheers

ps
The sound quality is good on airplay but not quite the quality of 'direct stream' from GPM servers, 320 kbps.
if you have a Mac no need to airplay. Sonos can find your entire iTunes and any other music folders on your Mac. Works far better then airplay. No Mac see the reason for airplay.
 
if you have a Mac no need to airplay. Sonos can find your entire iTunes and any other music folders on your Mac. Works far better then airplay. No Mac see the reason for airplay.

Youtube, Netlifx?

For $200+ I'd like to be able to use these speaker in more situation.
 
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