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You're suggesting the choice is akin to: "heads I win, tails you lose."

Same has saying … “well leave 50% of Your customers with no competitive mobile support, American pockets and go Android” there the choice. The thing is, to get a share of anyone business one does not have to own something (the device) anymore … just the thing (OS) that controls it :) Brilliant tech innovation.

These are the choices you argue that digital businesses have to reach their customers mobile phones. “Heads I lose, tails I loose some more” aka “take it or leave it” … call it cost on top … someone will pay … the user/people” ;)

I’m claiming for this industry to start being regulated for the good of consumers like many have been before to great effect … not only money but also innovation. One of the reasons why Apple was and many like it are possible is because some industries they rely on to build theirs are indeed regulated and don’t require them 30% of whatever value they deliver. Time to contribute back as a matured market and businesses. When we see these kinds of practices being possible … it’s that time. Others with other tech have tried along the millennia …
 
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[...]

I’m claiming for this industry to start being regulated for the good of consumers like many have been before to great effect … not only money but also innovation. One of the reasons why Apple was and many like it are possible is because some industries they rely on to build theirs are indeed regulated and don’t require them 30% of whatever value they deliver. Time to contribute back as a matured market and businesses. When we see these kinds of practices being possible … it’s that time. Others with other tech have tried along the millennia …
To me some funky rational. This is not kumbaya or pay it forward.
 
This is not kumbaya or pay it forward.

Definitely. That is why your “establishment”
feels so threatened by the idea of not being able to charge over what one does not deliver. For these, this reasoning totally escapes them … royalty, a sense of entitlement. From time to time these come again and again to try and impose this mercantile ways into the market through technology and power.

Will see how this will turn out in … there is plenty of time.
 
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Definitely. That is why your “establishment”
feels so threatened by the idea of not being able to charge over what they don’t deliver through others. For these, these reasoning totally escapes them … royalty. From time to time these come again and again to try and impose this mercantile ways into the market through technology and power.
Threatened? That’s a good laugh.
Will see how this will turn out in … there is plenty of time.
Sure. There is until time itself ends.
 
In fact many app developers, iOS or otherwise, build their apps and services on them.
Well yes, but cloud providers offer interchangeable services, meaning that a free, efficient market exists. Besides, they only offer automated tasks to yet another layer of services. If you are prepared to implement them yourself, you can choose between thousands of low-level (traditional) providers. On the other hand, it is simply not possible to distribute your iOS apps through anything else than the App Store.

Please note that I am not defending Apple's 30 percent cut. For that you will have to argue with I7. I am saying the argument that 30% are justified for the initial sale but not for in-app purchases has a major flaw because the concept of initial sale does not exist for most apps. In some cases (Spotify), the biggest value the app provides and the biggest "work" is done elsewhere (licensing and serving music), therefore it is obvious that the subscription is indeed for the bigger part none of Apple's business. But in other cases, the value is provided 100% by the app itself, the sale just does not happen upfront. In these cases there is no justifiable difference between initial store sales and in-app purchases. Therefore similar fees must apply to all purchases if one were to charge these developers correctly. (given percentage cuts are even ok, but that's not the argument here)
 
As is anybody who wants government to control a company’s business model?

I understand Americans are very much anti government nowadays and these kinds of statements entice an emotional response … polítics.

Yet as I’ve said many activities and industries are regulated … so logic would say what you pose as a counter argument is nothing but a strawman argument. All to enforce the idea that businesses should be allowed to charge for things that did not create, build, distribute, market … whatever … basically done nothing for it … because they found a way to do it.

Well yes, but cloud providers offer interchangeable services, meaning that a free, efficient market exists. Besides, they only offer automated tasks to yet another layer of services. If you are prepared to implement them yourself, you can choose between thousands of low-level (traditional) providers. On the other hand, it is simply not possible to distribute your iOS apps through anything else than the App Store.

I think you may be complicating matters. The App Store is technically a Cloud service offering facilities for one distribute an App and users to search and download/update apps. It offers payment and billing services for users to acquire licenses to use apps. The App Store it self is an App.

As a business, once, a very long time ago, we could say it sells Apps indeed … You would go to the store, choose an app, and pay a license for its use. But a decade ago it stopped doing just that with the in-app purchase policies covering all things digital and non digital transacted in app. This extension enforced it into being a middleman for any business activity that may occur in users devices owned by 50% of Americans, that we call the iPhone and the iPad.

I think we can agree that App Stores do not sell, dating arrangements, books, music, music lessons, email services, Uber rides, bitcoin, TV Sets, math lessons, … so on and so forth … This is done through Apps amongst other infrastructure components created and developed by third parties that enable those digital goods and activities … NOT the App Store or even iOS per si. The App Store sells apps, that is what the users see in their catalogue, nothing else … Just like when you are in Best Buy we see a package with an iPhone and buy it … it would cross no one’s mind for the Best Buy right to charge Apple for what happens in the device even inside the store.

I’m not even discussing what commission 15%/30% or whatever… or why is there even a commission for certain activities, but the bare reasonable fact that no business should be lawfully able to mandate charges directly or indirectly for goods or services that do not provide in any shape of form. Just because the only way that I see this possible is through mechanism that deny the Rights of Control of property owners ending inevitably in the usurpation of value … sophisticated or not … its very $tempting$ to any business given such power … and it is happening IMHO. I’m no man of the law, but I would be surprised if in the American law there isn’t something preventing this practice even in its Constitution. Today are business and smartphone owners … tomorrow car … house owners using operating systems with ever changing users licenses that will require to leave behind your goods if you don’t signup the next user license change.

I’m not into the law giving instructions to the likes of App Stores or any business on how to model their business. But I’m into the law saying to the likes of App Stores / Big Tech … “stop demanding mandatory charges for things you do not sell because its against the law”. It is up to Apple or any other business to find ways to comply with that and still be very profitable. I am sure it’s not that difficult considering the premises of this common sense principle that came with free societies and democracy. As I’ve mentioned, other kinds of Cloud services managed to do that very well … so it’s not a technical impossibility.

That is why, even if I agree with principles of the recent ruling in the Epic vs Apple case entirely, the order given to Apple to allow in app links to external “sites” to process payment or otherwise I feel like its imposing a technical solution to the problem amongst many possible … I think the order should be above such matters. Hey, I’m no law man, so don’t know if such kind of ruling would be possible or what would be the basis for such ruling in the US. But I would be very surprised if a basis can’t be found in a democratic capitalistic system with centuries of practice.

Cheers.
 
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I think you may be complicating matters. The App Store is technically a Cloud service offering facilities for one distribute their App and users to search and download/update apps. It offers payment and billing services for users to acquire licenses to use apps. The App Store it self is an App.
The app store is something that is called a market place. Market places allow merchants to sell their things through them and they take percentage cuts of what is sold.

I think we can agree that App Stores do not sell, dating arrangements, books, music, music lessons, email services, Uber rides, bitcoin, TV Sets, math lessons, … so on and so forth …
This is irrelevant. It sells something that enables users to do something else. This "something" has a value. When Best Buy sells a TV this is also just a means to consume content, and the content itself is not sold. Nonetheless, the consumtion device has itself a value and a price.

Now, in the case of TVs, the consumption device and content services are completely separated through well-defined interfaces for historic reasons. Therefore the price of the device is usually a fair price, covering research, development, construction, marketing and distribution of the device. (There are other examples where this is not true, printers for example.)

Apps are usually operated in closed eco systems where no open interface exists between the consumption app and content services. Therefore the manufacturer (who is also the service provider) can set prices arbitrarily. Often, in order to make more money, manufacturing costs are not invoiced upfront but offloaded to service consumption, even though operating the services incurs little costs, e.g. for dating app providers.

It is obvious that development of the Tinder app costs something. Hence in the classic market place model Tinder would have to sell their "reader" and Apple would be entitled to their cut. However, if Tinder gives away the app for free and then uses their own payment for everything after the download, this circumvents the whole idea of a market place.

This is as if TVs were sold at Best Buy for free but then you'd need to buy a services bundle directly on Samsung's website. Obviously, this cannot work as Best Buy would then just not sell these TVs.

but the bare reasonable fact that no business should be lawfully able to charge directly or indirectly for goods or services that do not provide in any shape of form.
Trading, selling, and re-selling, directly or indirectly via a platform is based on the idea that a sale itself (including all marketing, logistics and financial activities) has a value. Typically proportional to the selling price. This has been the case for thousands of years. Best Buy doesn't sell you a TV they have engineered and manufactured. They just move a box around, nevertheless they can charge large amounts.
 
I understand Americans are very much anti government nowadays and these kinds of statements entice an emotional response … polítics.
Yes, it’s emotional to have an opinion of less rather than more regulation, especially when the gubment starts to micro-regulate.
Yet as I’ve said many activities and industries are regulated … so logic would say what you pose as a counter argument is nothing but a strawman argument. All to enforce the idea that businesses should be allowed to charge for things that did not create, build, distribute, market … whatever … basically done nothing for it … because they found a way to do it.

[…]
So some regulation should beget more regulation because you don’t like apple’s business model?
 
The app store is something that is called a market place. Market places allow merchants to sell their things through them and they take percentage cuts of what is sold.

The thing is called an App Store. Yes, indeed it has evolved into something else.

This is irrelevant.

Well it is relevant when the actual transaction starts and ends outside of the App Store, case in case the third party App. You do not see that behaviour in no marketplace on the planet prior to App Store. So no, we aren’t dealing with a marketplace as you say.

Things enable other things all the time. I mean a butterfly beating it’s wings in the Sahara desert can enable a hurricane in the Amazon forest. I fail to see if in app purchase was not mandatory how would you say that the App Store enabled a dating arrangement transaction. It would not, the App would ... much as Apps do right now ... This is totally unlike actual marketplaces. This is how wrong is your view that the App Store is a market place … Whatever you buy to Amazon you buy in Amazon, not it some seller Web Site hosted in AWS.

In effect the in-app-purchase is a software device businesses are required to install on their properties in order the App Store charge for things its does not enable. It is just policy.

Now if that was not the case, like Amazon … than the App Store could be considered a marketplace. A place where people and vendors gather to buy and sell things or services. Amazon alone enables the sale (Oh, at a lower commission by the way).

PS: Of course you can than say that the entire iPhone or iPad is the marketplace … meaning the device is the marketplace. Well I don’t think user have bought into that … just have a look at the latest iPhone and iPad conference. I mean, I think people know and accepted an App Store as the place to go and get apps … and pay for them as well. From there to their smartphone entirely be a at Apple disposal as a marketplace of things and services but Apps … don’t think so.
 
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Any app running on iPhone from iOS App Store is using apple ip…

And has being payed for it both by the user through the licensing the OS for us own use and by the third party businesses as they do both for iOS and macOS.

But I’m a bit confused now, the other poster was saying that it was a marketplace and the fee was in place to pay for its service. But now what you argue is that in app payments fees are in place to pay for Apple IP ... is that it? Looks like double charges both to users and third party businesses.

muddy waters that get muddier as we start removing the mud.
 
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And has being payed for it both by the user through the licensing the OS for us own use and by the third party businesses as they do both for iOS and macOS.

But I’m a bit confused now, the other poster was saying that it was a marketplace and the fee was in place to pay for its service. But now what you argue is that in app payments fees are in place to pay for Apple IP ... is that it? Looks like double charges both to users and third party businesses.

muddy waters
All of the above plus distribution plus hardware software etc. You can form your own opinion.
 
Things enable other things all the time. I mean a butterfly beating it’s wings in the Sahara desert
You do not make any sense whatsoever. I perfectly outlined how consumption devices and content services interact with each other, why Apps are different than traditional content consuming hardware and so on. And all you are able to come up with is the totally unrelated butterfly effect... re-read my post, try to understand it. If you are unable to do so, which you obviously have been so far, get help from someone.

how would you say that the App Store enabled a dating arrangement transaction
Not the App Store is enabling things (the App Store is a marketplace). The App is! The App is a means to interact with services, like a TV to tune into programs.
 
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The app store is something that is called a market place. Market places allow merchants to sell their things through them and they take percentage cuts of what is sold.
Yes. And I'm all for competition between such marketplaces and their operators, as they see fit, with only a minimum government intervention (as long as fair trading standards/practice are given).

...unless there's an oligopoly of such marketplaces.

Such as when consumer are faced with only two or three relevant marketplaces that operate in a colluding manner.
 
Not the App Store is enabling things (the App Store is a marketplace). The App is! The App is a means to interact with services, like a TV to tune into programs.
Very fitting comparison.

Nobody is forced to buy, use or consume television. Yet if you didn't want to be excluded from schoolyard or water cooler talk and be a social outcast, the great majority of people used television. And again, while no law forces you to watch or listen to their services, most countries established and operate public broadcasters as a form of (quasi-) public service.

The difference is: Consumers could always buy their television sets from a variety of competing retailers. And conversely, manufacturers of TV sets could just as well easily choose through which channels or distributors to sell their devices.
 
Not the App Store is enabling things (the App Store is a marketplace)

You have not outlined perfectly a thing … maybe you are confused?

You came with the concept of a marketplace to counter argue this opinion of mine:

“I think we can agree that App Stores do not sell, dating arrangements, books, music, music lessons, email services, Uber rides, bitcoin, TV Sets, math lessons, … so on and so forth … This is done through Apps amongst other infrastructure components created and developed by third parties that enable those digital goods and activities … NOT the App Store or even iOS per si. The App Store sells apps, that is what the users see in their catalogue, nothing else … Just like when you are in Best Buy we see a package with an iPhone and buy it … it would cross no one’s mind for the Best Buy right to charge Apple for what happens in the device even inside the store.”

Yet a marketplace is a place where people and business gather to buy and sell goods. That is what a market place is. In this digital terms … a digital place … an app … a site … a chat. I think we can agree that the App Store and App are two different placed right?

Now with in-app-purchases … as the place of sale is not in the App Store / Marketplace but in the developer App. A device that follows the App wherever it goes in the system / users device … a POS tracker, basically a mandatory tracker to track the sale of anything in the digital businesses app. That is where my butterfly effect analogy came from … Sahara desert (one place) … Amazon (another place). That is what allows the App Store to charge for any transaction for any kinds of assets or services, digital or not (governed by policy). So you see, my metaphors aren’t that unrelated, they may be sophisticated … but not unrelated.

There are plenty of examples of digital marketplaces. Amazon for retail, Airbnb for temporary renting … if you care have a look at how these work and come back with a less abstract outline. Look at the fees, price structure, where the POS placed … look at the billing statement …

Not the App Store is enabling things (the App Store is a marketplace). The App is! The App is a means to interact with services, like a TV to tune into programs.

Correct. But I believe you aren’t see things with enough detail to bringing clarity.

In case of in-app-purchase the App is enabling the sale of the (digital good license or subscription of the service), it is just handing it off to the App Store … someone elses business … that is why use another metaphor … “man in the middle attack” … to remove the control of the sale out of the hands of the business that enabled it.

Before you totally disagree, I agree with you that there is value in what the App Store does. There is a coin of two sides. One side enables users to search for apps in the their device (we can also use Google, in fact a lot of us users do), download and update apps … in sum user access to the App. On the other side of the coin it enables businesses deploying their apps to their customers and potential customers devices. There is value in that … I explicitly enumerated those in post above, which components are used to enable that.

But once the App is in the hands of the user … it enables nothing … not even the sale … so whats the reasoning behind charging there? Butterfly effect?

If eventually Netflix was able to provide their customer a way to pay the subscription in App would that be enabled by the App Store … your marketplace? What about recurring payments? If not, … why isn’t the option given to them to supply their own cash register in app? What about Spotify? What about say a teacher giving remote classes? A remote digital gym? Game steams? All business that do not specifically sell Apps? You see, there is aways a hosing model … so it not that in such cases would be impossible for Apple to be payed for what it enables.

I can tell you why there is a very good reason for Apple. First and foremost leveraging on the digital businesses places /apps, especially crafted to sell what the Apps themselves enable, makes it a lot easier and way cheaper for the Store to sell/close the deal. In effect makes its so easy that is than able to charge for things it does not sell or market as they see fit, from say a ticket to go to the cinema to a dating arrangement … virtually anything from physical goods to the digital goods, from physical services to digital services. They might not charge for somethings, heck even some things they could reasonably sell service for, say a facebook app, they give it for free. But its entirely at their discretion making use of devices they do not own (users bought the device).

As policies are set it is fundamentally a “cornucopia” of money … note here is another butterfly effect … as long as they keep on selling loads of iPhones and iPads. Which they have been extremely successful in that market, 50% smartphone market share in the US. Which means, if you build a digital business, likely 50% of your customers will be using iOS On their pocket. I think we can also agree that Apps enrich / enable also the device to do all sorts of things … that aren’t Apple doing (Butterfly effect).

Now I don’t think this move in-app-puchase device was intended with such purposes … initially. I think Apple brains saw the freemium model on the web and came up with this solution for bring that model to the App Store considering that digital businesses could not sell a thing their apps (policy). A reasonable aim … yet the policies around this, and its changes in time paint a different picture. This phenomena is not uncommon. It’s not that the freemium model is bad for business, but the combination of the freemium model with the in-app-purchase fully controlled by a third party that can ultimate disable your business with a touch of a button opens a can of worms.

As engineers we tend to see problems in logical steps, we split things in components and investigate their relationships, create new relationships … but some of this new relationships might negate the control of other entities properties …heck some may be even against law or Constitution. So some of them need to be observed politically. We, engineers don’t like that, its not as linear … but such dislike maybe come from the lack of understanding of a way larger machine than the one we built.

I don’t understand you as a user don’t see how bad this can be for you. As technology evolves, now this practice is happening smartphones. What about what comes next smart cars, smart houses, smart pacemakers … Then we will have the I7guy saying or maybe you … “hey this is no different than what App Store has done for 3 decades”. The ever so slightly differences that are added each year that accumulate into something …

By decomposing things into properties, I simplify all this to: “No business should be lawfully able to forcibly mandate charges directly or indirectly for goods or services that do not provide in any shape of form.” Forcibly includes say market power.

Happy new year mate. We just see things differently in this context.

Cheers.
 
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By decomposing things into properties, I simplify all this to: “No business should be lawfully able to forcibly mandate charges directly or indirectly for goods or services that do not provide in any shape of form.” Forcibly includes say market power.

Perhaps Apple should simply charge for hosting and per download. A monthly charge for hosting, plus a charge per download with a minimum plus a % of the app price. Price could vary based on app type - so a subscription app could get charged more than say an app being sold. Free apps, would of course go away since they’d have to pay per download. Apple could let free downloads continue if there is not associated IAP or subscription; or credit fees against revenue fro a cut of teh IAP/subscription sales made through Apple. It would get rid of a lot of the junk and let Apple make money more like a retail store; although some get a cut of subscriptions for items purchased through their store.
 
...unless there's an oligopoly of such marketplaces
I completely agree. I'm not part of the team defending Apple on this one. But I want people to understand that it is a bit more complicated to find a good solution than it seems at first, i.e. initial download = Apple, subscriptions = 3rd party doesn't cut it.
 
Time of practice is not an agreement. Some things take time to understand. Take for instance Pyramid business models took decades to be understood until it was tackled by the law.
There was no law against apple innovative App Store. today in 2022 there is still now law. So yeah for 13 years the App Store has operated legally and in the US continues to do so.

Pyramid models were rendered illegal because there were winners at the expense of losers. The App Store remains to be legal because well, there is nothing illegal about it and there are only winners and winners.
 
Perhaps Apple should simply charge for hosting and per download.

That is an option to avoid such an unfair if not nefarious practice.

But even though my engineer hat loves to think about potential solutions my understanding of the situation is that for argument sake such suggestions aren’t helpful. It would be up to Apple to comply. There are many options, the current policy is not a fatality.

There is a poster that mentioned that about 95% of the Apps generate less than a million in gross revenue … well even though that might be an Ok value for a solo business, at these values these aren’t really sustainable businesses yet. And no investor would invest in them … In other words these aren’t really businesses but income generators, startups. A medical doctor in the US earns that … heck if work for Apple you earn more than that if you take into account stock options and all the perks.

Now it’s a great business for Apple to be able to enforce such practice, billions.

Funny enough the ones that really got successful have their apps for free and generate money through affiliation and Ads. You know, the likes of TikTok, Instagram m, Facebook. Just think of the absurd of say your create a social network we’re people are willing to pay 2 dollar per month to keep Ads away and their data not to be commercialized … but than 30% to Apple just because in comparison … someone would say that it’s fair, it enables it hehehe. These are the kinds of value distortions that charging for value not created leads to. But than the company will save the day and create its own safe social network using those billions and call it competition … we aren’t fare away from that.
 
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