Apple must stop updating OS X annually!!!

[Feenician]

I'm not a fan of the current cycle, and I think the prior releases illustrate a fundamental flaw in this approach. You cannot have the marketing department dictate when a major release is rolled out. I think we have that where we they now adhere to an accelerated pace for upgrades.

I think overall, they see how successful iOS is with their annual update and decided its a good idea for the desktop.

I'm not saying the cat releases were bug free, but I think the mentality of not releasing it until its ready is a better approach, then always releasing a major update every fall. Of course Apple is not doing anything different, Ubuntu does a 6 month release schedule, Windows is also on an annual update at this point. I think the state of the industry has mature to the point where it may make sense, but I stand by my assessment, that I'm not a fan of it.

I guess I must be lucky or something because I've had no major issues with any release, cat or California themed, and it's hard for me to see. I did however find Lion and Leopard not especially well optimised (it took their respective Mountain and Snow releases to fix this) where Mavericks, Yosemite and El Capitan I found to be excellent OS X versions. It's not like my Mac just sits on a desk doing nothing (and it has never been used in Starbucks) it's travelled with me to client offices and data centres across Europe and the US and always, well, just worked.

I guess I do not see exactly what it is people are complaining about in this release cycle and this thread hasn't given me much to go on. What exactly does the beats acquisition, the watch or Apple TV have to do with the quality of OS X or its release cycle?

 

[KoolAid-Drink]

To be fair, each version of Mac OS X had its own issues. Anyone remember 10.0? That was a doozer of a buggy release, the FireWire-erasing bug in 10.2 (or was it 10.3?), and even everyone's beloved 10.6 had issues with logging into the guest user account erasing the admin account's contents. Bugs aren't new, and I think we're seeing more bugs nowadays due to social media sharing the bugs more, and admittedly, there has been a bit less polish in OS X/macOS. IMHO, the worst release of OS X was Mavericks - now, that was one of the buggiest and most sluggish releases.

I also do think Apple is branching out a bit too much, and as a result, development/focus on the OSes has been spread thin. Maybe Apple should hire more engineers, and take a year to focus on the core issues that still plague iOS/macOS, cleaning the backlog, and releasing a truly polished macOS to work upon. Some code in the OS still hasn't been updated since at least Mac OS 7, and there's definitely a mixed feel in the OS, such as dialogs that look different and are sized differently. Some dialogs still have that pre-10.5 feel (from 10.3/10.4), some look like 10.6, and some are current and modern. System Preferences (SP), IMHO, should be changed to Settings, and take on the look of the iPad Settings dialog, but keep all the customization. The current appearance of SP hasn't really changed much since 10.0, and looks a bit small/dated.

With all that said, I still love the Mac, Mac OS X; now macOS; and iOS. I just think Apple should slow down a bit and 'futureproof' their code to make it more resilient for future releases.

 

[32828870]

I also do think Apple is branching out a bit too much, and as a result, development/focus on the OSes has been spread thin. Maybe Apple should hire more engineers, and take a year to focus on the core issues that still plague iOS/macOS, cleaning the backlog, and releasing a truly polished macOS to work upon. Some code in the OS still hasn't been updated since at least Mac OS 7, and there's definitely a mixed feel in the OS, such as dialogs that look different and are sized differently. Some dialogs still have that pre-10.5 feel (from 10.3/10.4), some look like 10.6, and some are current and modern. System Preferences (SP), IMHO, should be changed to Settings, and take on the look of the iPad Settings dialog, but keep all the customization. The current appearance of SP hasn't really changed much since 10.0, and looks a bit small/dated.

I'm not saying the cat releases were bug free, but I think the mentality of not releasing it until its ready is a better approach, then always releasing a major update every fall. Of course Apple is not doing anything different, Ubuntu does a 6 month release schedule, Windows is also on an annual update at this point. I think the state of the industry has mature to the point where it may make sense, but I stand by my assessment, that I'm not a fan of it.

Precisely what many of us have concluded. Certainly there were bugs in OS X development prior to 10.7, yet all releases have their wrinkles. The issue is rushing out major overhauls in order to maintain an annual release cycle based on a marketing platform. My Mac Pro and other desktop systems are the core foundation of my work, I would rather wait for a release that is more solid than what's been typically released since the changes. I'm surprised there are acknowledged and open bugs as far back as 10.7 that have not been resolved. That rarely (if at all) happened pre-10.7.

Knowing former Apple engineers who left under immense pressure to push out a release on a specified date with developer and public bug reporting at record highs didn't help them debug the core OS, especially with releases installed over previous releases and third party applications adding to the process. One reason Apple, Pixar, Google, and many other tech companies have campuses with gyms, sleeping quarters, volley ball courts and pools, 24/7 food services, even stocked bars is to keep them going. Create an environment that will cater to their needs since most are working longer hours on a hectic schedule. While 10.12 has been one of the better Federighi releases in my experience, I still preferred Serlet's work on OS X.

 

[Feenician]

I'm surprised there are acknowledged and open bugs as far back as 10.7

What bugs? Where are they open? I'd like to have a look.

 

[32828870]

What bugs? Where are they open? I'd like to have a look.

See above (re: wireless and bluetooth bugs since moving towards a single Broadcom WiFi ac + BTLE 4.x chip in 2012). A lot of people are still experiencing issues, especially with wifi. The fact that Windows systems on the same Mac don't experience these problems suggests it can be resolved under OS X.

For example, I have 2 BeoPlay S3 bluetooth speakers I sometimes use on my nMac Pro6,1. The sound kicks out when using my bluetooth devices or copy files between networked systems using SMB or AFP. I've been using "AirFoil" 5.x.x which has resolved the issue. No drops and the quality is fantastic. When I switch back to OS X driving the sound, it's a mess. Under Windows, it's solid. I've connected my Mac Pro to a second bridged current gen AirPort Extreme Base Station with a 10' Cat6 cable to avoid interference and shut off my WiFi as that seems to be a big help. Keeping in mind, this is a $6k+ Mac with dual D700's and 32GB's RAM. I shouldn't be experiencing this under their core OS.

Side note: I used to use Tivoli Model II's plugged in, but with so many external devices with the new Mac Pro - Promise Pegasus2 R4 array for the 4 drives in my previous gen Mac Pro5,1, 3x 27" Apple displays, external LG BDXL drive, USB and Thunderbolt devices, etc, it's a mess that I constantly have to maintain.

There are plenty still open. Let's not forget the DiscoveryD and mDNSResponder issue that ate up system resources for two OS releases:

Apple Replaces Problematic 'Discoveryd' Process With mDNSresponder in 10.10.4 Beta 4

 

[Feenician]

See above (re: wireless and bluetooth bugs since moving towards a single Broadcom WiFi ac + BTLE 4.x chip in 2012).

Yes I saw you mention it above but that's anecdote. I was asking for bug/tracking numbers. I'd really like to understand why I've connected to hundreds of wifi access points worldwide without issue but yet there's open bugs.

Let's not forget the DiscoveryD and mDNSResponder issue that ate up system resources for two OS releases:

Yes, that sucked. The worst symptom I personally had was seeing the same devices with (1) (2) etc. after them but I understand others were affected more deeply. At least they had the sense to walk that one back.

 

[32828870]

Yes I saw you mention it above but that's anecdote. I was asking for bug/tracking numbers. I'd really like to understand why I've connected to hundreds of wifi access points worldwide without issue but yet there's open bugs.

It's filed and acknowledged and is a bug many users have been experiencing. I've been working with Apple engineers directly on resolving this issue for ~2 years since I "upgraded" to a new Mac Pro in 2014 and on various MacBook Pro's I've owned over the past four years. Many people with the newer Broadcom chips using OS X are experiencing issues from constant dropped wireless connections and sporadic transfer rates to bluetooth connectivity. When other OS's operate well on the same hardware, it's not just hardware related but kext/driver/etc. Everyone has different hardware and experiences, when the stat's show it's an acknowledged and widely experienced matter you'd have to ask Apple engineers that question. Hopefully 10.12 with resolve the matter.

Yes, that sucked. The worst symptom I personally had was seeing the same devices with (1) (2) etc. after them but I understand others were affected more deeply. At least they had the sense to walk that one back.

It took them two OS releases to "rollback" the system. It's bad enough it took so long, it's even worse when they must resort to a previous system to fix it.

 

[Feenician]

It's not as it's filed and acknowledged. I've been working with Apple engineers directly on resolving this issue for ~2 years since I "upgraded" to a new Mac Pro in 2014. Many people with the newer Broadcom chips using OS X are experiencing issues from constant dropped wireless connections and sporadic transfer rates to bluetooth connectivity. When other OS's operate well on the same hardware, it's not just hardware related but kext/driver/etc. Everyone has different hardware and experiences, when the stat's show it's an acknowledged and widely experienced matter you'd have to ask Apple engineers that question. Hopefully 10.12 with resolve the matter.

Ok I'm going to ask one more time, as clearly as possible and then leave it that before half a thread gets deleted for me daring to ask posters to actually back up their claims. Here it goes: Do you have a bug number, any bug number, that pertains to an "acknowledged and open bug(s) as far back as 10.7"? It's a simple yes or no question. No need for multiple wordy paragraphs.

 

[32828870]

Ok I'm going to ask one more time, as clearly as possible and then leave it that before half a thread gets deleted for me daring to ask posters to actually back up their claims. Here it goes: Do you have a bug number, any bug number, that pertains to an "acknowledged and open bug(s) as far back as 10.7"?

Simply research them online; I even linked to a MacRumors article that dealt with one which took less than a few seconds to reference. As a paid developer, I agreed to an NDA. Unless you're a public developer, I'm not listing anything on here.

No one is slandering Apple or making unfounded accusations, we're all here because we use Apple systems and products. Disregarding aspects that need addressing is paramount in holding them to the same standards of quality we have expected from a great company. Lacking objectivity will only hurt us in the end, As you aren't experiencing these issues, perhaps there's something you can do to proactively assist in resolving bugs.

Until then, I hope your continued experiences remain perfect and appreciate the exchange(s).

*UPDATE: Posted two open bug reports at your request.

 

[Feenician]

Simply research them online; I even linked to a MacRumors article that dealt with one which took less than a few seconds to reference. As a paid developer, I agreed to an NDA. Unless you're a public developer, I'm not listing anything on here.

You may be an outlier, but invalidating acknowledged bugs and experiences by suggesting your experiences are different and thus have more weight doesn't help. No one is slandering Apple or making unfounded accusations, we're all here because we use Apple systems, many of us for years and for work. Disregarding aspects that need addressing is paramount in holding them to the same standards of quality we have expected from a great company. Lacking objectivity will only hurt us in the end, I'd rather work with them on producing better quality products and systems that benefit us. Instead, how about working with others and Apple to help resolve matters as you aren't experiencing them, perhaps there's something you can do to proactively assist in resolving bugs.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

I'm not going to log in and list all the bugs on my account when there's absolutely no need.

Then I'm done here. Thank you.

 

[32828870]

Then I'm done here. Thank you.

Here are just a few open bug reports for you. I have plenty more. Hope that satisfies your request.

 

[32828870]

Steve Jobs as a God, Starbucks as the sole denizen of Mac user, Tim Cook as the new John Sculley. Could this thread possibly be any more a of a tired cliche bumped by mostly new registrants with literally nothing but negativity in their posting history?

Forgot to address this comment. For the record, none of this is what I (or anyone) have stated. I agree with the cliché's being an overreaction to Apple's current state. No one mentioned Steve Jobs, Starbucks, etc. This thread is discussing OS X engineering and development. Nothing more so please keep it on topic and be respectful to others as your tone and remarks are inappropriate.

Additionally, you never acknowledged the bug reports I posted at your request. If you truly joined this discussion with good intentions, then follow them through instead of "hit and running" with unrelated and personal comments.

Hope you're having a great weekend!

 

[Feenician]

Forgot to address this comment. For the record, none of this is what I (or anyone) have stated. I agree with the cliché's being an overreaction to Apple's current state. No one mentioned Steve Jobs, Starbucks, etc. This thread is discussing OS X engineering and development. Nothing more so please keep it on topic and be respectful to others as your tone and remarks are inappropriate.

Additionally, you never acknowledged the bug reports I posted at your request. If you truly joined this discussion with good intentions, then follow them through instead of "hit and running" with unrelated and personal comments.

Hope you're having a great weekend!

Chill. I appreciate you posting the bug reports but I haven't had time to do them justice by looking properly. i will probably take a look later or tomorrow.

As for no-one mentioning Starbucks or Jobs. Search the first page for Jobs, coffee and Sculley (in fact that last one was you)

 

[32828870]

Chill. I appreciate you posting the bug reports but I haven't had time to do them justice by looking properly. i will probably take a look later or tomorrow.

As for no-one mentioning Starbucks or Jobs. Search the first page for Jobs, coffee and Sculley (in fact that last one was you)

I'm "chill". You came on here with your first post being sarcastic and unnecessary, and it was you who brought in "Starbucks" and Jobs as "God", not me. It's been 24 hours since you insisted I post bug reports and then dismissed me entirely when I stated I wouldn't risk my Developer NDA. However, I did at your request to which you ignored after your rants. If you have nothing to offer other than hyperbole and sarcasm, please respectfully move on.

 

[Feenician]

I'm "chill". You came on here with your first post being sarcastic and unnecessary, and it was you who brought in "Starbucks" and Jobs as "God", not me. It's been 24 hours since you insisted I post bug reports and then dismissed me entirely when I stated I wouldn't risk my Developer NDA. However, I did at your request to which you ignored after your rants. If you have nothing to offer other than hyperbole and sarcasm, please respectfully move on.

Good grief. I just thanked you for them and said I'll look into them when I have time. And, no, it was not me who brought the coffee shop and jobs clichés into it (the entire point of the post you quoted was that they had already been said. I am not prone to non-sequitur) and I never said it was you either. I said you brought sculley in, which you did. Like I said, search the first page of the thread.

And Jobs isn't here to save them anymore.

people that just want a laptop that has the apple logo on the lid to go to the coffee shop are 97% of the business.

Many have noticed Apple becoming fragmented again, heading towards a 90's John Scully era

I will look at the bugs and respond, just not right now. Again, thank you for posting them.

 

[32828870]

Good grief. I just thanked you for them and said I'll look into them when I have time. And, no, it was not me who brought the coffee shop and jobs clichés into it.

When did anyone mention Starbucks aside from you? No one. My mention of Federighi and Serlet in my first post was on topic with the discussion. I later mentioned John Scully after others brought that point forward. Putting that on me is inaccurate as a number of people made those remarks.

Your first post was inappropriate to this discussion. Sarcasm and disrespect are unnecessary, especially between strangers online. I wouldn't have treated you in the same disrespectful manner in person nor online. Common decency is what we're referring to and I'm surprised you don't see it.

Wishing you the best and moving on.

 

[Feenician]

When did anyone mention Starbucks?

Have a look, otherwise unless you acknowledge your first post which is clearly there was inappropriate to this discussion than there's nothing more to discuss. Be an adult, that's what we are here for. Sarcasm and disrespect are unnecessary, especially between strangers online. I wouldn't have treated you in the same disrespectful manner in person nor online. Common decency is what we're referring to and I'm surprised you don't see it.

Wishing you the best and moving on.

Oh they didn't mention the brand of the coffee shop, totally different My post was entirely on-topic and factually correct. All three elements, Jobs, Mac users in coffee shops and John Scully were mentioned before my post and that was what I was referencing. I even quoted this posts in the last response. I cannot make it any more plain.

I've now thanked you twice and said I'd respond to your bug reports when I had time. Since that seems not to be good enough I think I'll leave it.

 

[32828870]

Since that seems not to be good enough I think I'll leave it.

So your point is with others and not just me, and over an irrelevant remark which you twisted into something completely different. Got it.

Thank you, I appreciate leaving it and moving on for the sake of us all. Take care!

 

[Shackss]

I got a rMBP 13 4 months after Yosemite was released. Before that I kept seeing my roommate use his MacbookPro with Mavericks and I remember being envious how fluid his experience was, compared to mine (Windows 7).

I have to say that I was disappointed. Yosemite was crap, I remember even considering going back to Mavericks. After a few months down the road, El Capitan was released too and made things better.

Looking at Sierra now, I was quite happy seeing that there were no new, bold features available. I'm only thinking that, good, they should improve the stability of the system, fix bugs and such instead of releasing new features that complicate things.

At this point I don't know what to say, Mac has its problems too, and so maybe the cost of having Apple products was justified a few years ago, when Windows XP was crap and OS X stable, but nowadays, with these operating systems, I see less and less reasons to go with Mac, because I might just as well stay on Windows and complain about bugs, while I know I didn't give an arm and a leg for a computer.

 

[maflynn]

Looking at Sierra now, I was quite happy seeing that there were no new, bold features available. I'm only thinking that, good, they should improve the stability of the system, fix bugs and such instead of releasing new features that complicate things.

How many versions of OS X macOS do we need for Apple to improve stability.

Seems like you're making excuses for apple with the "I was quite happy seeing that there were no new, bold features available." comment. Why not continue to just roll out bug fixes for El Cap at this point?

I'm sure there are fewer "big" features to add on a modern operating system at this point in its life cycle, but it would still be nice to see. I'm not against Sierra, it seems nice enough from what I've read about, but its also underwhelming as well.

 

[dogslobber]

Note: This is regarding the end product and the changes in development made over the past decade that have played a role in releasing a more solid core OS, not about "Sierra" or using an OS still in beta.

Been an OS X developer for well over a decade and I strongly dislike Apple's decision to move OS X to an annual release cycle to match iOS. Bertrand Serlet was lead engineer for OS X 10.4-10.6 and delivered the most solid OS X builds to date. Beta's were released ~bi-weekly and had to be downloaded and installed on a clean drive in order to test and debug the OS without third party interference over a 1 1/2 - 2 year period.

Craig Federighi took over with 10.7 and OS X builds moved to an annual cycle with beta's (DP's) installed over DP's. Debugging and proper testing became a nightmare which often resulted in lesser quality releases. Stories from former OS X engineers should make most OS X users concerned. Third party developers should be handling that workload, Apple engineers should be focusing on the core OS.

I'd gladly pay $129 for a solid release on my Mac's than rushed releases riddled with open bugs from three OS's ago. I have a new Mac Pro6,1 running Sierra and El Capitan and a 2012 classic Mac Pro running 10.6, interestingly enough Snow Leopard runs circles around any OS X I've had on my new Mac Pro (a 12-Core system vs. 6-Core).

The two things that appear to have changed are the length of the release cycle and who has access to pre-release builds. How are either of these going to impact quality of the final product? If you have a reduced release cycle then your feature set is just smaller. You've got to assume that test coverage is just as thorough is either case. If it isn't then that's your problem. In terms of pre-release builds, bugs will come from external users but they would be evaluated pretty quickly as part of the development process. In my mind, the length of development period shouldn't change the quality. Perhaps the quality assurance process changed in which case that's a management issue that needs to be rectified.
[doublepost=1468769417][/doublepost]

Excellent points. Everyone.

HKSA, interesting you brought that up. Many have noticed Apple becoming fragmented again, heading towards a 90's John Scully era. The best thing Jobs did upon his return was creating the infamous "Four Quadrant product grid". Cutting products and focusing on "Consumer" and "Professional" markets with "Desktop" and "Portable" systems brought the company back to basics and improved their products while working on polishing new projects. Jobs had great idea's and believed that if the idea succeeds the profits will follow. Cook is a CEO, he is about numbers. Ive has taken over development and design, but he's resting on past success. Jobs was the visionary, Ive was the designer, Cook the CEO. Those three working with top engineers in the industry made Apple a success.

Apple needs that focus again.

Steve was the co-founder and the single individual who took a broken Apple and turned it to gold. He was Apple. Unfortunately, when you remove the core of a company like that then you're left with what Apple is now. You can't remove the visionary and expect those left to function properly by filling the void. Fear of Steve drove them every day to make the right decisions. When you remove that drive from people then it allows them to make unchallenged decisions that become silly in the end. Ultimately, Tim Cook is just a PC guy out of his depth. There are no checks and balances in the company because nobody really has a handle on what they're doing. Silly ideas bloom into products (e.g. iWatch) as they're left unchecked and nobody is really accountable. Design by committee is where we're at with Apple and they're beginning to drift in a rudderless direction. You can't really save Apple other than to try to prolong their existence with the feel good factor of the good old days. But the longer Steve is a memory the more Apple becomes like any other corporation. The heart and soul is gone from them now and there is nobody with the authority or respect to take Steve's place. Woz is the nearest Apple icon but he's not Steve Jobs.
[doublepost=1468770051][/doublepost]

I'm not a fan of the current cycle, and I think the prior releases illustrate a fundamental flaw in this approach. You cannot have the marketing department dictate when a major release is rolled out. I think we have that where we they now adhere to an accelerated pace for upgrades.

I think overall, they see how successful iOS is with their annual update and decided its a good idea for the desktop.

I'm not saying the cat releases were bug free, but I think the mentality of not releasing it until its ready is a better approach, then always releasing a major update every fall. Of course Apple is not doing anything different, Ubuntu does a 6 month release schedule, Windows is also on an annual update at this point. I think the state of the industry has mature to the point where it may make sense, but I stand by my assessment, that I'm not a fan of it.

Open ended development is absolutely the wrong way to deal with release planning. Planning is the key word here. Marketing dictates when a release rolls out and development organizations need to work backwards from that release date to define schedules. If you leave it to developers to "not releasing it until its ready" then it'll never get released! Development doesn't have a start or end point without hard dates. What's really going on here by the sounds of it is poor project planning by the engineering organizations. They need to allow sufficient time for their development AND QA cycles to shake out all bugs wrt marketing release dates. If a project can't fit into the release cycle then kick it until next year, not release it untested or with major bugs.

 

[jasnw]

What's really going on here by the sounds of it is poor project planning by the engineering organizations. They need to allow sufficient time for their development AND QA cycles to shake out all bugs wrt marketing release dates. If a project can't fit into the release cycle then kick it until next year, not release it untested or with major bugs.

Have you ever worked in a marketing-driven operation? The developers are told what features they will provide and by what time - the developers have to deliver something that matches the feature list by the designated time or heads roll. QA/QC is secondary to the features+schedule driver. Sure, the engineering side can try to stir things up, but that's when you find out which hand has the whip in it. In Apple's case, it seems more these days that marketing holds the whip and engineering produces what they're told when they're told to, and quality/reliability be damned.

My view of this issue is very one-sided and parochial. I started using OS X at Panther and upgraded as soon as possible to the next release up until Lion. That's the first one I had to fall back from, something that has happened with every upgrade since. I just moved from Mavericks to El Capitan two months ago (after three fall-backs) and don't plan to move to macOS until at least the x.3 release of whatever follows Sierra. I don't want any of the new features, I just don't want to find myself on an unsupported OS four years from now and needing to jump three versions to get up-to-date. It's a sad commentary when upgrading is fear-driven rather than desire- or need-driven.

 

[dogslobber]

Have you ever worked in a marketing-driven operation? The developers are told what features they will provide and by what time - the developers have to deliver something that matches the feature list by the designated time or heads roll. QA/QC is secondary to the features+schedule driver. Sure, the engineering side can try to stir things up, but that's when you find out which hand has the whip in it. In Apple's case, it seems more these days that marketing holds the whip and engineering produces what they're told when they're told to, and quality/reliability be damned.

Yes, I have and still do. Developers need a manager who will bat for them and program managers who will push back on unrealistic expectations from marketing. It's all about negotiation and PMs and managers are typically part of the engineering org and need to grow a spine if they're to do their job properly. That's why I said it sounds "poor project planning by the engineering organizations". Management and PMs specifically. I could be wrong.
[doublepost=1468774221][/doublepost]

My view of this issue is very one-sided and parochial. I started using OS X at Panther and upgraded as soon as possible to the next release up until Lion. That's the first one I had to fall back from, something that has happened with every upgrade since. I just moved from Mavericks to El Capitan two months ago (after three fall-backs) and don't plan to move to macOS until at least the x.3 release of whatever follows Sierra. I don't want any of the new features, I just don't want to find myself on an unsupported OS four years from now and needing to jump three versions to get up-to-date. It's a sad commentary when upgrading is fear-driven rather than desire- or need-driven.

Won't all the bugs in 10.11.6 be fixed also in 10.12.0? Albeit with new ones to be shaken out along the way. That's why I surf the non-beta upgrade path as I'm assuming all bugs reported and fixed in 10.11.6 will also be in subsequent OS X releases. It wouldn't make sense for them to not be.

 

[Asclepio]

craig federighi should be fired by now. he created a huge cluster**** under the "super vision" of tim "do whatever u want" cook. there is no one in charge who really say no do it again this is ****, like steve jobs did.

 

[ScottishDuck]

The problem is actually that there's still release versions at all. Even the bumbling monolith of microsoft has woken up to rolling release.

Drop the numbers and just provide regular updates. New features arrive as they're made. No more glitz and glamor.