Apple MVNO Patent Reveals Abandoned Possibility

[JLew]

Those incidents happened to me and my friends, not you so you can't really say they were false just so you can support your cell company. And in fact, AT&T is the worst company to get replacement/new phones from, they just rather you buy a new one. It's happened to me and my family twice, a friend of mine three times with her Blackjack, and another friend of mine just recently.

You can't really prove that wrong.

You're right, but I've seen enough of people not being entirely truthful to know BS when I see it. If some of those things have happened you're leaving pieces out of the story.

As for insurance, all cell companies allow you to insure anything through them, and it works if YOU are the one that breaks your phone as well. AT&T has nothing even close. If I break my phone I can get it fixed for free no matter what model or price. If I misplace it, I can get another one sent to me for $50. I can do that twice a year at most. So that destroys AT&T's reasoning for not insuring the iPhone or other smartphones, everyone else does it, they are just too cheap.

Very misinformed. Look up a company called Asurion (previously Lockline). That is the company that actually insures devices. They decide what gets insured, period. And almost every carrier uses the same company and has the same restrictions. This is something I may be slightly off on but I don't believe you can get a BlackBerry from Verizon and get it covered by insurance either.

And, to clarify, here is AT&T's insurance policy. All devices are insurable except RAZRv2, Z9, BlackBerry 8300/8800 series, Treo 750/680, Tilt, Moto Q, and iPhone. (You'll see a pattern here, high retail priced devices). The fee is a $4.99/month premium and then if anything happens, ANYTHING, you can replace the device for a $50 deductible 3 times/year. They even cover the Palm Centro and BlackBerry Pearl.

So... destroys reasoning? If I'm running Asurion and I have to replace devices on a $5/month premium and $50 deductible, why would I choose to insure those high ticket devices? That makes no sense. So people can call in and say that they're device was "stolen" and then I give them a $400-500 device for a $50 deductible. How long before I go out of business?

Or are you one of those people that think that the hardware is free or cheap to the carrier? Someone has to pay for it. I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions in the US market.

As for the bill paying, I pay the bill when I feel like it. I can wait to do it every two months or every month, just like every other phone company. The problem came when they cut it off halfway through the second month, then didn't activate it until after the month was over (2 weeks) even after I paid it. I thought I said that?

When did your cell phone company become a credit company? And I can say this with 100% certainty - when you pay a past due balance your service is restored immediately. No exceptions. That is the law. The only way this is delayed is if you pay with some payment method that has a clearing period (ie personal check).

Sprint may be dying, but their prices can't be beat non the less. AT&T would have been as obscure as Virgin Mobile if it wasn't for the iPhone, so that's a moot point.

Hmm... AT&T had the most customers before the iPhone and has only increased their lead since. This statement is laughable, especially when you consider how huge AT&T actually is.

You're right about the broken phone thing, but the problem that many AT&T customers is that they only offer it once or twice before they tell you to buy a new phone, and you're sending the old phones back to them. Buy a broken BB, send it back and get a new one. Get a broken one later on down the road, they may honor their 30 day thingy, but a lot of time they don't. Maybe they work different where you are. It's a pretty standard thing, but AT&T doesn't think they should do it.

Huh? If you buy a device on June 10th, 2007, you have warranty coverage until June 10th, 2008. Period. No matter how many devices have to be replaced due to manufacturer error. If you get a replacement on December 20th, 2007, your warranty still expires on June 10th, 2008. Pretty standard and I don't see a problem with that policy. And I believe that the warranty process through AT&T is that you call in and make the claim, they send the replacement, then you send back the defective device after you get the replacement (usually 2-3 days), so you're never without a device.

Nothing really false there.

See above.

 

[Digital Skunk]

...

Nothing you said makes sense.... did you read the posts the I posted of just quote them to get your point out? Really.

I know Asurion insures the phones.... so why don't they insure the phone from AT&T, but they do for Sprint...? Because Sprint cares about service.... maybe, because Sprint pays more money? Possible. But either way I break a Treo I get it fixed or get a new one.

That pulls much of you post apart, and the rest is moot since you didn't actually prove anything.

I really hope that posters stop trying to tell me that I am wrong about my experiences and poorly attempt to do so with their own opinions.

Besides... I dealt with billing issues and customer service woes with Sprint, like I said, but since it's not their favorite iPhone company I guess that doesn't matter as much.

 

[megfilmworks]

As for the bill paying, I pay the bill when I feel like it. I can wait to do it every two months or every month, just like every other phone company. The problem came when they cut it off halfway through the second month, then didn't activate it until after the month was over (2 weeks) even after I paid it.

Love ya skunk...but I can't help but think that anything that happens after "paying my bill when I feel like it" is your own fault.
Maybe they got around to restoring your service when they felt like it.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Love ya skunk...but I can't help but think that anything that happens after "paying my bill when I feel like it" is your own fault.
Maybe they got around to restoring your service when they felt like it.

Yeah I agree, but it's never happened with Verizon or Sprint. I can get away with paying Sprint for two whole months, then not pay them again for another two months, and they never shut my service off.

Cingular shut it off early, and turned it back on late.

 

[mikey.f]

Perhaps the rumoured Aussie-iPhone is going to work this way?

 

[JLew]

Nothing you said makes sense.... did you read the posts the I posted of just quote them to get your point out? Really.

I know Asurion insures the phones.... so why don't they insure the phone from AT&T, but they do for Sprint...? Because Sprint cares about service....

Huh? Maybe you read, but you don't comprehend... Asurion DOES insure the phones for AT&T... and that completely destroys your point...

And, if you read back you'll see that I am the only one that is using facts, not vague stories about "my friends and me" that supposedly illustrate a point...

 

[Digital Skunk]

Huh? Maybe you read, but you don't comprehend... Asurion DOES insure the phones for AT&T... and that completely destroys your point...

And, if you read back you'll see that I am the only one that is using facts, not vague stories about "my friends and me" that supposedly illustrate a point...

They insure phones from AT&T, but not the smart phones and some of the high end handsets. Including the iPhone, like you said, but that's the problem. Everybody else uses Asurion but ALL of their phones are insured.

The only fact that you use is the Asurion one, and your mixing that up.

Honestly, why are you so adamant about AT&T? They suck just like every other phone company. It's not like you're doing them a favor. Did you respect them this much before the iPhone came out?

 

[JLew]

It really has nothing to do with whether or not AT&T has the iPhone... (and, for the record, I sincerely doubt that Asurion or AT&T has any input on whether the iPhone is insurable... I bet SJ has something to do with determining that)...

What it has to do with is how it's unfair that people go on message boards and post false, misleading comments based on "their personal stories" that are, in most cases, full of garbage (and you have barely used "facts", instead, most of your "points" have been based off references to how you, your family, and friends were allegedly treated - which, in all but the case of something that may have happened directly to you, is hearsay and untrustworthy)... I have repeatedly pointed out policy and law (for instance, the fact that no company waits to turn your service back on for 2 weeks after you pay a bill - again, most likely a case of missing "facts")...

And, again, you reference the most laughable argument you have tried to make... the iPhone did not turn AT&T into the largest wireless carrier... they ALREADY WERE... and that is a fact. AT&T was dominant long before the iPhone came out...

And it's not particularly AT&T that I'm "doing a favor"... it's any company that gets trashed for falsehoods by misinformed people...

 

[buckdutter]

I'm usually just a reader, not forum warrior, so here is to jumping in head first. While the topic is interesting, I have to agree with JLew. On the issue of insurance, I don't think AT&T would have a choice on it either way. I worked for Best Buy for a time while finishing college, and I know that Best Buy had no authority to use any of their warranties or services for any mac product, only apple care plans. I doubt this has changed much, and I sincerely doubt even if AT&T did ensure all their devices (I believe they don't because of the 4.99/mo price point vs the 5.99 one, but I could be wrong), the iPhone would undoubtedly not be on that list, if Asurion would even take it.

In terms of "all cell phone companies being evil," I guess that is an easy assumption to make, but we all hold big businesses to a double standard. We bitch at how big a company is, or how much "power" they wield. The only thing that gives a company power is the consumer. If there is one industry where huge companies make sense it is in the communications industry. Lets not kid ourselves, localized and limited communications companies are not a benefit to the consumer. The services they can lack are much more limited, and their prices for the same services tend to end up being more expensive. Ask anyone who was alive when they broke up the first AT&T monopoly. Most people I talk to would agree that breaking it up into the baby bells was in no way a benefit to the consumer. We have a tendency to think large business = evil blood sucking money hungry empire seeking to control the world.

I have used all the carriers at this point, and I have no problems with AT&T. I do think it is interesting that it is the ONLY wireless provider to have earned certification from the Better Business Bureau. They are much more open than Verizon on devices, and have been for a long time, and while their 3G is behind, it is hitting the ground running. EV-DO is already getting close to hitting its ceiling, while HSDPA/HSUPA has a lot of growth potential.

At any rate, I think Apple made the right move. There are very few MVNO providers that are not in financial trouble, or have not gone through financial trouble. I doubt you would ever see Apple affiliate itself with a company with as horrible a customer service reputation as Sprint has (there is a reason they are dying right now, and a reason that they are currently being hit with legal action by the government), and T-Mobile has never had the reach (how long have they been saying one 3G network would go up?). Verizon passed, and at the time were the largest carrier, and the fact that they passed showed how much control Verizon likes to have over their devices. AT&T/Cingular was the second largest, and largest when the iPhone launched, and they were also already running on the GSM standard.

On a side note, if I were not locked into a contract with another carrier, I am sure I would be up in arms as well, or if AT&T did not work well where I lived. I would find every reason to hate both the iPhone and AT&T, but honestly, I can't complain. Exclusive devices are no stranger to the telecom industry, but since it happens to be an Apple product it is all of a sudden a hot button issue. Now onto what we should really be talking about, I WANT A DAMN GSM LG CHOCOLATE. Who is with me?

 

[Digital Skunk]

It really has nothing to do with whether or not AT&T has the iPhone... (and, for the record, I sincerely doubt that Asurion or AT&T has any input on whether the iPhone is insurable... I bet SJ has something to do with determining that)...

What it has to do with is how it's unfair that people go on message boards and post false, misleading comments based on "their personal stories" that are, in most cases, full of garbage (and you have barely used "facts", instead, most of your "points" have been based off references to how you, your family, and friends were allegedly treated - which, in all but the case of something that may have happened directly to you, is hearsay and untrustworthy)... I have repeatedly pointed out policy and law (for instance, the fact that no company waits to turn your service back on for 2 weeks after you pay a bill - again, most likely a case of missing "facts")...

And, again, you reference the most laughable argument you have tried to make... the iPhone did not turn AT&T into the largest wireless carrier... they ALREADY WERE... and that is a fact. AT&T was dominant long before the iPhone came out...

And it's not particularly AT&T that I'm "doing a favor"... it's any company that gets trashed for falsehoods by misinformed people...

Oh... I am sorry. You must be right. I was so misinformed about everything. Your loose facts proved my experiences wrong. I must of dreamt the whole thing up.

Cheers.

Blame the fact that lying is second nature to most people at this point, trusting is in turn most definitely not.

Agreed, so we can all **** since no one has any cold facts.

 

[buckdutter]

I also agree that on an internet forum, as true as it might be, someone saying "yeah, this happened to me and my friends" really means nothing. Sure I can't prove you are lying...but you can't prove you are telling the truth either, so...yeah...

Blame the fact that lying is second nature to most people at this point, trusting is in turn most definitely not.

 

[buckdutter]

Oh... I am sorry. You must be right. I was so misinformed about everything. Your loose facts proved my experiences wrong. I must of dreamt the whole thing up.

Cheers.

Yeah, but generally you can't offer up experiences as proof. If that did happen, and I really am not looking to argue over whether or not it did or did not, I can definitely say that those are not standard business practices, and things would have not happened as they should of. Granted, many times things do not work as they should on paper, and third party vendors, third party insurance, third party device manufacturers all contribute to that. Still, because it happened once does not mean that it is how it happens all the time, so I think what JLew is saying is that even if it did happen, the policy on paper is much different. I could also say, "yeah, my phone broke with att, like a month after I got it, they gave me a new free one, took my contract off, credited me one million dollars, and served me breakfast in bed every morning." Firstly, no one would believe me, and secondly, if that did indeed happen, it would most likely have been a massive mistake on the part of a new employee, or an incompetent/ruthlessly generous one (which I would like).

Bottom line, personal experience means nothing. I worked retail for a long time, so I rarely believe the horror stories. I was lied to by customers on an hourly basis, whether it was about the price they saw online ($99 xbox 360 anyone?), or what they were doing before their device "went dead" (ever seen a camera leak water when you took the battery out when all it was doing was sitting on the kitchen table the whole time?). When confronted all those people told me how evil best buy was and how wronged they were...whatever.

Lesson? Don't work at Best Buy...or in retail...you will carry baggage the rest of your life and probably hate humanity.

 

[Digital Skunk]

I also agree that on an internet forum, as true as it might be, someone saying "yeah, this happened to me and my friends" really means nothing. Sure I can't prove you are lying...but you can't prove you are telling the truth either, so...yeah...

Blame the fact that lying is second nature to most people at this point, trusting is in turn most definitely not.

And don't forget that the other person can't state anything substantial other than what they think happened, which IMHO hold less weight. Calling someone "misinformed" based on their experiences (whether false or not) is not only an improper use of the word, but isn't relevant to the argument.

It's like they are trying to tell the person that they didn't experience these things.... like they were there when it happened. Why would you even waste your time?

 

[buckdutter]

And don't forget that the other person can't state anything substantial other than what they think happened, which IMHO hold less weight. Calling someone "misinformed" based on their experiences (whether false or not) is not only an improper use of the word, but isn't relevant to the argument.

It's like they are trying to tell the person that they didn't experience these things.... like they were there when it happened. Why would you even waste your time?

The same reason I would waste my time in 94% of internet forums I suppose.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Yeah, but generally you can't offer up experiences as proof. If that did happen, and I really am not looking to argue over whether or not it did or did not, I can definitely say that those are not standard business practices, and things would have not happened as they should of. Granted, many times things do not work as they should on paper, and third party vendors, third party insurance, third party device manufacturers all contribute to that. Still, because it happened once does not mean that it is how it happens all the time, so I think what JLew is saying is that even if it did happen, the policy on paper is much different. I could also say, "yeah, my phone broke with att, like a month after I got it, they gave me a new free one, took my contract off, credited me one million dollars, and served me breakfast in bed every morning." Firstly, no one would believe me, and secondly, if that did indeed happen, it would most likely have been a massive mistake on the part of a new employee, or an incompetent/ruthlessly generous one (which I would like).

Bottom line, personal experience means nothing. I worked retail for a long time, so I rarely believe the horror stories. I was lied to by customers on an hourly basis, whether it was about the price they saw online ($99 xbox 360 anyone?), or what they were doing before their device "went dead" (ever seen a camera leak water when you took the battery out when all it was doing was sitting on the kitchen table the whole time?). When confronted all those people told me how evil best buy was and how wronged they were...whatever.

Lesson? Don't work at Best Buy...or in retail...you will carry baggage the rest of your life and probably hate humanity.

Dude.... I know that feeling... Ritz Camera was the pits YUCK!!! I agree with you, which is why I don't get why JLew would even try to take this conversation this far, which leads me to believe that he has something to prove. What's it to him? If I could go back two years and pull up the bill from AT&T I would.... if I could find the bill from Sprint that my fiancee got when they double charged her, then refused to give her the money back I would.

It's not like I am bashing AT&T and praising the rest... they all suck. And honestly, JLew still doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the insurance bit. In retail people lie because they can get away with something, or get money, or get the associate to do something for them. Customers lied about broken cameras...

Customer: "My camera just up and broke on me."

Associate: "Look's like you dropped it."

Customer: "What makes you say that?"

Associate: "The cracked LCD and leaking black fluid."

I have been there... but online there isn't anything to prove. And there isn't anything to gain in proving someone wrong whether they are telling the truth or lying. I am not going to turn customers away from AT&T. People won't throw down their iPhones and pick up buggy Windows Mobile devices. I put my 2 cents in and someone didn't think they were valuable to him, that's all that happened.

Right about now, I realize that there will always be that poster that has to say something to start an argument or take the discussion of course. I used to be that person and i have learned how to end a discussion that goes nowhere like this one.

Just let the person with the biggest mouth have their way.

The same reason I would waste my time in 94% of internet forums I suppose.

Yeah, but to start an argument with someone while you nor the other person has facts to back up their statements is a dead end. We were just going back and forth stating the same things, throwing around words like "misinformed" and "b**lsh*t" like they couldn't be applied to what we were saying.

It went no where and now the thread is way off course.

 

[buckdutter]

Dude.... I know that feeling... Ritz Camera was the pits YUCK!!! I agree with you, which is why I don't get why JLew would even try to take this conversation this far, which leads me to believe that he has something to prove. What's it to him? If I could go back two years and pull up the bill from AT&T I would.... if I could find the bill from Sprint that my fiancee got when they double charged her, then refused to give her the money back I would.

It's not like I am bashing AT&T and praising the rest... they all suck. And honestly, JLew still doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the insurance bit. In retail people lie because they can get away with something, or get money, or get the associate to do something for them. Customers lied about broken cameras...

Customer: "My camera just up and broke on me."

Associate: "Look's like you dropped it."

Customer: "What makes you say that?"

Associate: "The cracked LCD and leaking black fluid."

I have been there... but online there isn't anything to prove. And there isn't anything to gain in proving someone wrong whether they are telling the truth or lying. I am not going to turn customers away from AT&T. People won't throw down their iPhones and pick up buggy Windows Mobile devices. I put my 2 cents in and someone didn't think they were valuable to him, that's all that happened.

Right about now, I realize that there will always be that poster that has to say something to start an argument or take the discussion of course. I used to be that person and i have learned how to end a discussion that goes nowhere like this one.

Just let the person with the biggest mouth have their way.



Yeah, but to start an argument with someone while you nor the other person has facts to back up their statements is a dead end. We were just going back and forth stating the same things, throwing around words like "misinformed" and "b**lsh*t" like they couldn't be applied to what we were saying.

It went no where and now the thread is way off course.

The Asurion thing is accurate, right now with the price point that AT&T offers insurance for, Asurion will not insure: the Z9, BB 8310, BB 8820, HTC Tilt, and Treos. In all honesty, using Asurion is a waste no matter what way you slice it when you can easily add a high end PDA or laptop or whatnot to renters insurance or homeowners insurance for a fraction of the cost.

I think what derailed the thread would be labeling all the companies evil. Saying that AT&T would have been Virgin Mobile without the iPhone gives you absolutely 0 credibility on chiming in on the health and status of businesses in the telecom industry. Not only has it been named the most admired telecom in the world by Forbes, but it is also the largest carrier in the US, and was before the iPhone launched. AT&T Mobility's CEO is the invited keynote speaker for GSM World. When was the last time you heard of Virgin Mobile contributing anything to the industry other than giving Sprint a nice rent check every month? Like it or not, AT&T is at the forefront of the American telecom landscape, and was long before the iPhone launched, but the partnership with Apple has only made them stronger. Granted it is probably easy to write me off as an AT&T fanboy (do those even exist?) or whatever...and probably JLew too...but I'm not going to lie, some of the things you said did deserve rebuttal. You can't expect to make outlandish claims (I'm excluding anything related to personal experience) and not have someone call you out on it. But then again, what do I know, I am just a forum newbie.

I like the service I get with AT&T, and while I will get the occasional hiccup in customer service if you happen to get a bad rep on the line, I generally have a very good experience, I would go as far as to say better than any other provider I have had. Granted, AT&T 2-3 years ago was a completely different company (literally), AT&T now is a merger of SBC, Bell South, and Cingular (previously co-owned by the the two previously mentioned) into one brand...AT&T. One thing people might like to hear about AT&T's current focus as a company...their main focus is on reducing churn (customers leaving), which probably means a huge focus and investment on better customer service, better policies (they just announced prorated early terms starting in may), and hopefully a better experience. I doubt any company pleasures in screwing customers over...because that would be incredibly short sighted...

The bottom line (to get the thread back on track) is that had Apple gone the MVNO route, it would have been a nightmare. Anyone with any concept of how the industry works would agree to that. It may sound good in concept (and it does), but the headache not only for Apple, but for the consumer would have been tremendous. In working with one carrier, Apple can tailor the device to certain features the carrier might be using, and likewise the carrier will make adjustments necessary to their network to cater to Apple when appropriate. The only way to achieve this level cooperation would have been through an exclusivity deal, because believe it or not folks, no carrier needs or ever needed the iPhone, and no carrier needs Apple. Also the only way for our beloved Apple to be able to get a tasty piece of the revenue pie would be through an exclusive deal. They get monthly income, and deal with none of the expense of running a large company owned network. They would not get that with MVNO. Sure people might not have been caught with their pants down stuck with other providers, but Apple can keep making money and keep being able to afford R&D to keep bringing great products to the table, and AT&T can grow their customer base and reputation with a device like the iPhone, it is a win win for the companies, and I could be wrong on this...but I think that is why businesses partner in the first place.

 

[Scottgfx]

If I understand your post correctly: AT&T had a problem with you not paying your bill, and Sprint doesn't mind if you don't pay? Wow, that's really kind of Sprint... Or perhaps that's why their stock price has been tanking. (29.5B Loss!)

 

[samab]

EV-DO is already getting close to hitting its ceiling, while HSDPA/HSUPA has a lot of growth potential.

Verizon passed, and at the time were the largest carrier, and the fact that they passed showed how much control Verizon likes to have over their devices. AT&T/Cingular was the second largest, and largest when the iPhone launched, and they were also already running on the GSM standard.

If you are a GSM fan, then you should get down on your knees and pray that you don't see the 14 mbps of HSDPA. The only reason they would do a 14 mbps HSDPA would be LTE is a technical bust and faces big delays.

Newer and faster technologies have always come along --- making the top "paper spec" speed of GPRS, EDGE, and WCDMA all theoretical. EDGE came along and rendered the top version of 170 kbps GPRS dead. WCDMA came along and rendered the 450 kbps version of EDGE dead. HSDPA came along and rendered the 2 mbps version of WCDMA dead.

Verizon has NEVER put their own Verizon UI into their Windows Mobile smartphones or their blackberries. The iphone is 10x more controlling than any of the Verizon phones out there.

 

[JLew]

Calling someone "misinformed" based on their experiences (whether false or not) is not only an improper use of the word, but isn't relevant to the argument.

It's like they are trying to tell the person that they didn't experience these things.... like they were there when it happened. Why would you even waste your time?

I would have agreed with you (and probably empathized) if you had made the position of "I had a bad experience, here's what happened to me (and/or my friends/family)... That shouldn't have happened..."

But that's not what you did... you took the position of - "Here's what (allegedly) happened to me/my friends/my family and that's AT&T's policy, therefore AT&T's policy must change.."

The things you allege are in direct conflict with AT&T's policies (and in some cases, law) and that is what I pointed out. A policy is a fact. A law is a fact. A second (or even third) hand story is most definitely not fact. Anyone play the game "telephone"? Exactly.

That is why you were called "misinformed". At that habit of posting without any thought to validity is what got this thread off track.

 

[JLew]

If I understand your post correctly: AT&T had a problem with you not paying your bill, and Sprint doesn't mind if you don't pay? Wow, that's really kind of Sprint... Or perhaps that's why their stock price has been tanking. (29.5B Loss!)

I believe Sprint still uses the model of setting a limit on how high your balance can get (for instance, you may get a spending limit of $350) and then if your balance exceeds that, your service gets suspended. So that might take 2-3 billing cycles.

I believe AT&T has a stricter model where if anything reaches past 30 days overdue (so, theoretically, the balance of bill #1 when bill #2 hits) and nothing has been paid on it, then you're service is suspended. (I believe I have probably oversimplified it, but I think that's the basics)