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Clearly most people in here have never known any artists and the flipside of the music world.

Most artists are undeserving scums, and if I was iTunes, I would remove the **** out of those who don't comply with these newest term: Apple is offering them more than a store service now, but it's offering them the biggest advertising and publishing platform.

Music artists are the worst people of the whole domain, trust me, and they don't deserve ****.
 
I've been working on the indie film/original web content side of things for about a decade so I think have a pretty good grasp of the reality of the situation.



Views, downloads, streams, ticket sales, etc., are empty stats w/o revenue attached to them. For example, at least one artist has said that Tidal pays out about three times what Spotify does so 1,000 streams on Tidal is more lucrative than 2,000 streams on Spotify. Would you rather have more streams or more money in your pocket?



But other other companies can create similar opportunities and the artists are still responsible for their own marketing to try and stick out from the crowd. I guess being another needle in another haystack doesn't blow my socks off anymore. Sure, being in more places hypothetically improves your odds of being 'discovered' but, meh, I'm over 'opportunity' sales pitches.



You mean kinda like brick & mortar stores that buy their inventory and then sell it to customers? Or cable/TV networks that pay for content and then use commercials to generate revenue? In the streaming world, Netflix paid $118 million for the right to stream the show Friends. That's Friends though, so of course people are going to watch Friends (and maybe even sign up for Netflix just so they can watch it), but Netflix even paid some money up front for the indie doc in my sig with no guarantee that anyone would watch it (it isn't on Netflix anymore so I should probably update my sig).



Try making a living as an artist in the entertainment industry and what I'm talking about will probably resonate more. Still might not agree with me but it would probably make more sense. Below is the Cliff's Notes version.

1. If the claim that Apple has threatened to kick artists out of iTunes entirely if they don't agree to the three month trial then that's a really shady move by Apple.

2. The three month trial is most likely going to do insane traffic and when your paycheck is tied to traffic I completely understand not wanting to leave three months worth of insane traffic money on the table. For all the 'we love music' talk you'd think Apple would be willing to eat such an insignificant cost relative to its bottom line. If someone offered to give you 9 months of wages for 12 months of work I doubt you'd accept it w/o at least suggesting, "How about 12 months of wages for 12 months of work?"

3. I'm not enamored with the potential reach a distributor has, I'm interested in the realistic amount of direct and/or indirect revenue I'm likely to earn via said distributor.

For example, my documentary was on many online platforms when it first came out (Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, PSN, XBL, Vudu, iTunes, etc.,) and while Netflix had the biggest audience potential the distribution company I worked with said we should push people towards iTunes, not Netflix (we were responsible for our own marketing), because we had a better shot of making more money with iTunes even though the audience pool was smaller. This is because iTunes does a revenue split where as Netflix just does a lump sum up front.

For a more apples to apples comparison, if I was doing a multi-platform release today, and was responsible for my own marketing, I would push viewers towards Vimeo's paid service because it has a 90/10 split as opposed to Apple's 70/30 split. Sure, iTMS has more brand recognition and more potential reach, but if the onus is on me to tell viewers where to go I'm going to point them towards Vimeo first.

This is getting weirder and weirder... so are you saying that all content should be treated equal in terms of payout, whether it's music, movies, TV shows, etc? Because we're talking about music streaming in this thread but you're citing your experiences in trying to monetize your documentary as an example and bouncing back and forth between netflix, iTunes and vimeo...

Every platform and every content type is going to be treated differently in terms of the deals that are made between platforms and producers. Because the audiences are so completely different. People's perceived value of a movie is different from a song is different from an app.

Same goes for the distribution model. Purchasing vs. streaming vs. renting will all have different payouts.

You can't compare any of it because it's all so different from content type to market... it's like trying to compare the sales of soy beans to coffee beans. You just can't.

And then yeah, even the platforms themselves are different. Like if Tidal has a better revenue split for artists and you think it's a better place for the artist to make money from their music then WHY are you complaining about Apple Music? They're not the only game in town and you obviously think there are better games so that's great! Something for everybody! Some people want a massive audience with a sensible split and some people want a small audience with a much bigger split and so everyone can have what they want. What's the problem??

By the way, that "claim" that was made about getting kicked out of iTunes was already debunked, so I'm not sure why you're still going on about that but it does say a lot about your perspective in this.

As for your concern about my perspective, I have been working in film, television and video production for over ten years. I've written, produced and directed short films that have played in festivals and on television, written and directed for two television series', and shot and edited buckets of video productions from corporate to documentary. And I'm currently writing a feature length screenplay that I hope to sell when it's ready -- but I don't *expect* it to sell unless it's something people think is worth buying. So I'm no stranger to making my living as an artist -- every year is a new struggle and there's never any consistency or certainty -- but I'm also not about to compare my experiences in film and television and video production to the experiences of a musician because they are very different fields with very different audiences, perceptions, business models, etc.

So let's get back to basics here because we've gotten WAY off track.

Apple's decided model for streaming music is to generate as massive an audience as possible in order to get them all paying $9.99 a month -- the more people that pay, the more money there is to distribute to the artists. To generate that audience, they've come up with a plan to offer a free three month trial. Apple clearly believes this is the best way to get the most people signed up for a paid account.

If you don't believe this is best way to get people to sign up for a paid account, Apple Music is not for you.

If you don't like big audiences, Apple Music is not for you.

If you don't like their revenue split, Apple Music is not for you.

Your music is ultimately what is going to drive people to listen to your music, so by all means put that music in the place or places where you think you'll make the most money doing so. No one is telling you otherwise and I wish everyone the best in their choices. Apple Music isn't stopping anyone from making their own choices in life. I really don't get the issue.
 
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Open question to everyone saying Apple are screwing over the little unknown artists:

How many streams would you expect a typical small, unknown artist to get in three months, and how much revenue would that generate for the artist on the free tier of Spotify?
 
It's called a mutually beneficial relationship whereby Apple offers the world's largest stage with the most highly prized demographics and the musicians supply the content. If they both do their jobs, millions of people will shell out $10 a month and everyone wins.

Just because Apple has money to burn, that doesn't mean they should assume all the risk and single-handedly secure a brighter future for musicians and the labels. The musicians and the labels will benefit just as much if Apple Music takes off so if they want to reap the rewards, they should share some of that risk.
I don't think Apple should be giving people a free 3 month trial at all. I think people need to pay where they lay. They need to be paying for the service. If they want a free trial they should go to Spotify and try it out.
 
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Open question to everyone saying Apple are screwing over the little unknown artists:

How many streams would you expect a typical small, unknown artist to get in three months, and how much revenue would that generate for the artist on the free tier of Spotify?
Adele isn't a small time artist and neither is Taylor. The bottom line is that Apple has now put itself in a situation where they have to negotiate separate contracts for everyone instead of just making everyone pay. People who want to try out Apple Music will do so regardless of the $10/month fee. After all if they can afford and iPhone they can probably afford a $10/month subscription. This isn't some new market Apple has created. Apple is entering an established market. People know what they are getting.
 
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Open question to everyone saying Apple are screwing over the little unknown artists:

How many streams would you expect a typical small, unknown artist to get in three months, and how much revenue would that generate for the artist on the free tier of Spotify?
The questions are entirely irrelevant.

The artist in question is not a "small, unknown artist" even if you haven't heard of him. "My way or the highway" is not how reputable businesses deal with their partners. And providing a music stream is not some kind of charity service for which artists should accept with grovelling subservience. Even labels, the bête noir of the music industry, don't ask their artists to provide their material for free with a vague possibility of future sales.
 
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Wait. So the world's richest company doesn't want to pay anything in the three month trial? Greedy.

I can't believe the amount of people defending Apple. Hand me your paycheck for three months if you're OK for working for free.
 
Wait. So the world's richest company doesn't want to pay anything in the three month trial? Greedy.

I can't believe the amount of people defending Apple. Hand me your paycheck for three months if you're OK for working for free.
I don't know why Apple feels it needs to steal food out of the mouths of artists to make Apple Music a success. People know what streaming is and even if they don't Apple has a track record for quality products in particular iTunes and music. People will pay the $10/month regardless of a free trial. People can cancel at anytime anyway. So a free trail is completely unnecessary if they are concerned with not being able to pay the artists.
 
Why don't you come work for me for free for 3 months and then if I like you enough I'll start paying you.
Ok, you aren't forcing me to work for you, if I don't want to work for 3 months free for the potential benefits after that then I don't find the value in your offer so i'd decline. It's the exact same for these artists, it's their choice to be on Apples platform, if they want to continue to be on their platform then they must work for free for 3 months. Ok, if you choose that path you still find value in being on Apples platform. Artists have the choice to decline to be on a particular service, Apple has the choice to not allow artists. Artists do not have the right to be on any platform they wish. Just like I can't sell papers at a library or bookstore or mall or coffee shop. Each of those businesses have a right to not offer my product.

so like in this case i will choose to opt out of your offer .... see simple i have nothing to complain about
Yes sir!

It's not win-win. It's the equivalent of getting a 3 month unpaid internship with the potential at the end of that period to get a job that pays 70% of what you could make doing the job on your own.
That's an investment. No one enters an unpaid internship they don't find value in. Also, in this particular case, I wasn't aware indie artists have the capital and technology to launch a streaming service on a large scale. Apple is offering artists a platform for their music, if they don't like the terms and the potential for income then they don't have to accept said offer.

No, but I do make investments.

The idea behind the free trial is you invest your music upfront... in order to attract as many paid listeners as possible down the line.

Apple aren't offering a free trial because it makes them look good to their customers... they're trying to attract as many paying customers as possible so both they AND the artists can get paid as much money as possible once the free trial ends.

I'm honestly amazed at how many people are getting this twisted.
Yes yes yes!
 
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Sounds more like you are a straight-up Apple hater...
An Apple hater that only uses Apple products... But I can say since Tim Cook took over I'm leaning on the side of hate. I haven't been excited about a product since 2012 with the retina MBP. Jewelry, fashion and the like are not my thing. The only other exciting area for me is if they can finally kill the cable bundle. But who knows when/if that will happen with music streaming services and watches.
 
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An Apple hater that only uses Apple products... But I can say since Tim Cook took over I'm leaning on the side of hate. I haven't been excited about a product since 2012 with the retina MBP. Jewelry, fashion and the like are not my thing. The only other exciting area for me is if they can finally kill the cable bundle. But who knows when/if that will happen with music streaming services and watches.

Fair enough.

But in regards to this Macrumors "story" it's really a non story. The guy in question, Anton Newcombe, who claimed Apple coerced him, is flat out lying. He is known for stirring up trouble due to his mental illness (again, there is a whole documentary about him.) And as I stated in my previous post here, Artists are simply given the option to opt in or out, with no affect on their current iTunes Music Store releases. And for most indie artists such as myself, it is actually beneficial to opt in as I explained in my post.
 
The questions are entirely irrelevant.

The artist in question is not a "small, unknown artist" even if you haven't heard of him. "My way or the highway" is not how reputable businesses deal with their partners. And providing a music stream is not some kind of charity service for which artists should accept with grovelling subservience. Even labels, the bête noir of the music industry, don't ask their artists to provide their material for free with a vague possibility of future sales.

Which artist?

I'm talking about any small, unknown artist people are arguing are being screwed over by Apple.

If the issue is how much revenue those artists are losing out on, then those questions aimed at actually putting some figure on what that revenue might be are not only relevant, but are the crux of the whole issue.
 
Which artist?

I'm talking about any small, unknown artist people are arguing are being screwed over by Apple.

If the issue is how much revenue those artists are losing out on, then those questions aimed at actually putting some figure on what that revenue might be are not only relevant, but are the crux of the whole issue.

The number of streams could be a couple hundred or a couple million. What if his song goes viral and garners millions of streams in the first month and then the buzz dies down by the time the 3 month no royalty expires and streams fall back down to a couple thousand. The artist missed out on a windfall.
 
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The number of streams could be a couple hundred or a couple million. What if his song goes viral and garners millions of streams in the first month and then the buzz dies down by the time the 3 month no royalty expires and streams fall back down to a couple thousand. The artist missed out on a windfall.

A little off-topic here, but artists really don't earn that much from streams. I remember reading an article a few months back by Aloe Blacc who co-wrote the hit song Wake Me Up with Avicii. It became Spotify's #1 streaming song of the summer or something, millions and millions of plays. After everything was divided up amongst the songwriters, label, and whoever else gets a share, I think he said he made a total of $11,000 and change. And that's a #1 hit song on the most-used streaming service.
 
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The number of streams could be a couple hundred or a couple million. What if his song goes viral and garners millions of streams in the first month and then the buzz dies down by the time the 3 month no royalty expires and streams fall back down to a couple thousand. The artist missed out on a windfall.

If we're talking about a small, unknown artist of the sort people are criticising Apple for screwing over, then the chances of them getting a couple of million streams are pretty remote.

Or, if a song does go viral and get millions of streams and there is a lot of buzz, then the artist will almost certainly generate revenue from sales of the song.

Where has this weird idea that Apple Music is the only way people can access music come from?

And I thought this was a general concern for the well being of small, unknown artists. Has it now become a very specific concern for a very specific, and highly unlikely scenario, where an unknown artist gets millions of streams on Apple Music during the next three months, but sells virtually nothing, generates virtually no revenue anywhere else, and never really generates any interest after those three months?

There is concern, and then there is just concocting the most elaborate unlikely scenario you can think of to try to justify that concern.
 
A little off-topic here, but artists really don't earn that much from streams. I remember reading an article a few months back by Aloe Blacc who co-wrote the hit song Wake Me Up with Avicii. It became Spotify's #1 streaming song of the summer or something, millions and millions of plays. After everything was divided up amongst the songwriters, label, and whoever else gets a share, I think he said he made a total of $11,000 and change. And that's a #1 hit song on the most-used streaming service.

Exactly - I remember reading that but couldn't remember what the song was.

Up until now we were led to believe that streaming generated virtually no money even for quite well established artists.

Now we're supposed to believe that a three months free trial of Apple Music is going completely ruin unknown artists.
 
Exactly - I remember reading that but couldn't remember what the song was.

Up until now we were led to believe that streaming generated virtually no money even for quite well established artists.

Now we're supposed to believe that a three months free trial of Apple Music is going completely ruin unknown artists.

Exactly, and Apple isn't doing anything to make themselves look better than their already stingy competition. This royalty free three months is like them pouring salt into an already stinging wound.
 
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I still don't get why Apple pushed for a 3 month trial period instead of a 1 month trial.

If you use it for 30 days, you will know whether you want to keep it or not.

An extra 2 months of 'free-time' that Apple cannot collect revenue or pass onto labels and artists via royalties is completely superfluous and unnecessary.

Just change it back to 1 month and make everyone happier?

3 months is a brilliant move. It bleeds the competition, Spotify/Tidal/whatever makes no money for 3 months..

3 months free will also make a lot more paying users jump ship, if it was only 30 days the customers might keep paying for Spotify during that month and don't give Apple Music the full attention..
 
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